How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[OzSpen]

People don't understand there is a grave for the body and a "grave" for the soul and spirit, which is Hades. They aren't asleep.

That is fanciful imagination for which you have provided not a shred of biblical evidence.

 

[OzSpen]

If the righteous are in heaven alive then they don't need a resurrection because they are not dead. praise the Lord

The problem with that view is that it is not biblical. We are taught: 'But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain' (1 Cor 15:13-14 ESV).

There will be a resurrection of the dead, otherwise it demonstrates the uselessness of proclaiming Christ. If there is no resurrection of the dead (your position), it demonstrates Christ has not be resurrected. Such a position is totally untenable.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

My comment was directed at a particular statement with a particular intent. I was not making a declarative statement to the general public. However, since you've brought it up I can gladly list doctrines that modern churches have wrong. Your church doesn't have any errors? I'd beg to differ. If you're representative of your church just look at the discussion we're having right now about the intermediate state. I believe and can show that man is not alive after death until the resurrection.

You have committed the hasty generalization logical fallacy.

 

[OzSpen]

Hey, all the links are the same article

Sorry about that. My problem with melding of URLs. Let's try again:

• Life after Death: Current Controversies

• Those who live and believe in Jesus Christ shall never die

• The Intermediate State for believers and unbelievers: Where do they go at death?

However, you didn't even bother to respond to the one link that was available to you.

 

[OzSpen]

Luke 23:43 - If you research the original doctrines of the NT, you will see that there is no punctuation. I would submit that it is translator bias. When you remove the comma you can see that Jesus was simply comforting the thief on the cross.

- ATP

Are you a NT scholar who knows the Koine Greek of the NT?

 

[OzSpen]

And I am explaining to Oz that, if the beggar were real, as you claim, then perhaps the rich man had good reason to turn him away.
I know that if such a character were to show up on a daily basis at my door, I might feed him once or twice...but after awhile, I'd call the police or the mental hospital or someone. I have kids here, and, blech...I don't want this guy and his disease...not to mention his cohort of dogs...contaminating their environment.

And if the truth were told, you'd probably react the same way. So I guess we'd both wind up on the wrong side of the Styx, with dry tongues...

The Barrd,

Where did I state that Luke 16, the rich man and Lazarus, was a real story and not a parable. Please refer me to where I stated that. It's a false accusation.

 

[OzSpen]

They don't have physical bodies. The resurrection gives them the new body.

Well said. That's the biblical doctrine of the need for resurrection at the end of the age. 1 Cor 15:12-58 (ESV) affirms this.

 

[OzSpen]

I'm not saying that Jesus was influenced by Greek culture, but that the people He was teaching were....that is why He used Greek mythology in His parable.

There is not a word in this story to confirm that Jesus used Greek mythology. That's an invention by those who have read the story.

 

[OzSpen]

Exactly. They are employing something called a contextual fallacy, forcing a different context into the context of something else. 2 Cor 5:8 only speaks of dying and being with the Lord. No bodily resurrection is spoken of because it is not required nor needed to go to the Lord.

Of course. Paul gives a profound exposition of bodily resurrection at the second advent in 1 Corinthians 15 (ESV).

 

[OzSpen]

I have, you just refuse to expand on it and except the truth of that passage.


What scripture are you looking at where Hades does not mean grave??

ATP,

In Rev 1:18 (ESV), Death and Hades are differentiated, so they cannot be synonyms. In many occurrences of Sheol in the OT Greek (Septuagint), Sheol is translated by Hades.

Limiting the NT teaching on Hades to the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk 16) for an understanding of life after death is based on a wrong assumption, in my view. This is because what Hades meant before Jesus' resurrection is not the same as what it means in the NT epistles. Hebrews 1;1-3 (ESV) teaches us about progressive revelation. It should be expected that what is taught in the epistles should go beyond the Gospel material.

In the epistles, we are taught that at death, believers go to be with Christ (heaven?) (Phil 1:23 ESV) and they are present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:6-8 ESV). There they are with the angelic assembly in heaven (Heb 12:22-23 ESV) and are at God's altar (Rev 6:9-11 ESV). So the teaching after the Gospels is that believers at death do not enter Hades are immediately go into the presence of God.

See Robert Morey's article, 'Sheol, Hades and Gehenna'. Morey's understanding, which is supported by biblical evidence, is: 'According to the post-resurrection teaching in the New Testament, the believer now goes to heaven at death to await the coming resurrection and the eternal state. But, what of the wicked? The wicked at death descend into Hades which is a place of temporary torment while they await the coming resurrection and their eternal punishment'. According to 2 Pet 2:9 (ESV), the wicked are being kept in torment in the intermediate state in Hades.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

And you have no argument and no scriptures to back up your silly beliefs. Read post 211 and learn something.

Your ad hominem logical fallacy prevents us from having a logical discussion.

I will not continue to interact with you when you call my beliefs 'silly beliefs' because they don't agree with yours. When you use logical fallacies, logical discussions are [SIZE=12pt]torpedoed.[/SIZE]

Bye! Bye!

 

[Barrd]

Hades has two compartments but the blessed aren't in either. The blessed are in heaven, a completely different place far away. It is tartaroo which is a compartment of Hades and it's for the fallen angels.

Actually, Hades does have a compartment for the blessed, called the Elysian Fields.
And that great gulf....gotta be a river running through that thing.

 

[Barrd]

The Barrd,

Where did I state that Luke 16, the rich man and Lazarus, was a real story and not a parable. Please refer me to where I stated that. It's a false accusation.

If I misunderstood you, I apologize.

 

[OzSpen]

Actually, Hades does have a compartment for the blessed, called the Elysian Fields.
And that great gulf....gotta be a river running through that thing.

That demonstrates you are not getting your information from Scripture.

 

[OzSpen]

If I misunderstood you, I apologize.

Thank you. I am pleased to accept your apology. However, I would urge you to read carefully what others and I write.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

The problem with that view is that it is not biblical. We are taught: 'But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain' (1 Cor 15:13-14 ESV).

There will be a resurrection of the dead, otherwise it demonstrates the uselessness of proclaiming Christ. If there is no resurrection of the dead (your position), it demonstrates Christ has not be resurrected. Such a position is totally untenable.

Oh i thought you believe that believers are alive in heaven. sorry
I was just stating a person alive in heaven does not need a resurrection, because they are not dead.


1 Corinthians 15:29
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Here is a resurrection you get from baptism.
Your evident of baptism show that Jesus did rise from the dead.

as far as the saints in heaven if they are alive they are not to be naked.
Paul talks about this in 2Cor.5 that we are to get a new body from heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:1-3
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

 

[Barrd]

Thank you. I am pleased to accept your apology. However, I would urge you to read carefully what others and I write.

With all due respect, Oz, I do have a life outside of CB....
However, your point is well taken.
I will try to keep better track of who's who around here in the future.
If I seem to get confused from time to time, I can count on you to correct me?
Be gentle, though....I'm an old lady... :wub:

 

[ATP]

Are you a NT scholar who knows the Koine Greek of the NT?

It doesn't take a scholar to know the original text lacked punctuation. There was no comma in the original text.

 

[Butch5]

You have committed the hasty generalization logical fallacy.

You realize that a fallacy is an error in the chain of logic? My opinion is not a logical argument, it's an opinion.

 

[ewq1938]

Actually, Hades does have a compartment for the blessed, called the Elysian Fields.

The biblical Hades does not have such a thing. And the place in Greek mythology is not called Hades.

And that great gulf....gotta be a river running through that thing.

That's adding to the text.