How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[OzSpen]

Ok, take the Heavenly Destiny doctrine. It says that believers go to Heaven when they die. That teaching is not taught anywhere in Scripture. The modern teaching of the Trinity, that there are three co equal beings in the Trinity. Jesus said the Father is greater than. I've spoken with many who believe that the Trinity consists of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and that three these are God. They then speak of God using singular pronouns such as He and HIm. That idea is a logical contradition. Three persons cannot be one being, that's impossible. However, I have see people argue till the cows come home that this is the Trinity. It is not. It's a doctrine that came about in the 5th century and I believe Augustine had a lot to do with it. If we look at what the church believed prior to that such as in the Nicene Creed we find that they believed what the apostle Paul said,

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Cor. 8:6 KJV)

Then there is the doctrine that there is some part of man that lives on after his death and is conscious somewhere, whether it is in Hades, Abraham's bosom or Heaven etc. The Scriptures tell us plainly who God created man in Gen 2 and what happens to man when he dies in Ecc.3. Gen 2 says that God created the man from the dust of the earth and breath into him the breath of life and man became a living soul. So,man is a living soul that consists of a body and the breath of God. Ecc.3 tells us that when a man dies his body goes back to the dust and the breath returns to God. So, there is nothing left to live on after death. Yet, in spite of this clear teaching in Scripture many Christians simply look right past it and continue to argue for the doctrine.

These are three of the big ones and a serious study of them shows that what many claim today simply isn't what the Scriptures teach. If you want to look into them we can.

Let's discuss the first point. From what you have raised, you state:

1. Believers go to heaven at death is taught nowhere in Scripture.

a. Where do believers go at death?

b. Is there such a place as heaven?

c. Do believers go there at any time? If so, when?

Many thanks,
Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Yeah, I know. What's your point? If you notice I said the "Scriptures" are crystal clear. The only reason I mentioned the Creed was because you asked where I stood on the Trinity.

My point was that nothing is stated in the Nicene Creed about what happens to believers immediately at death. However, the Nicene Creed affirms, 'I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come'. This means that there will be a resurrection of dead people and there is life in the world to come. Human beings are not zapped into extinction at death, according to the Nicene Creed.

 

[ewq1938]

My point was that nothing is stated in the Nicene Creed about what happens to believers immediately at death. However, the Nicene Creed affirms, 'I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come'. This means that there will be a resurrection of dead people and there is life in the world to come. Human beings are not zapped into extinction at death, according to the Nicene Creed.

True plus Christ affirmed God is not the God of the dead...so no believer that has died is fully dead.

 

[OzSpen]

True plus Christ affirmed God is not the God of the dead...so no believer that has died is fully dead.

This is what happens when you read only part of a verse. Mark 12:27 (ESV) states: 'He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong'. The fact is that no believer who has 'died' is dead but is living. That's why Paul could say he preferred to be 'away from the body and at home with the Lord' (2 Cor 5:8 ESV).

 

[ewq1938]

This is what happens when you read only part of a verse. Mark 12:27 (ESV) states: 'He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong'. The fact is that no believer who has 'died' is dead but is living. That's why Paul could say he preferred to be 'away from the body and at home with the Lord' (2 Cor 5:8 ESV).

Agreed...lets try to build on this on other issues where we might disagree.

 

[OzSpen]

Agreed...lets try to build on this on other issues where we might disagree.

Let's stay with the OP. Is it possible for believers to get to heaven when they die? If so, how does that happen?

 

[ewq1938]

Let's stay with the OP. Is it possible for believers to get to heaven when they die? If so, how does that happen?

Many verses speak of someone going to God or heaven after death...heaven is usually misunderstood as the eternity when it is not.

 

[OzSpen]

Many verses speak of someone going to God or heaven after death...heaven is usually misunderstood as the eternity when it is not.

Why don't you deal with these verses instead of giving this kind of generalised statement? We are not going to get anywhere if you don't deal with the Scriptures.

 

[Butch5]

Let's discuss the first point. From what you have raised, you state:

1. Believers go to heaven at death is taught nowhere in Scripture.

a. Where do believers go at death?

b. Is there such a place as heaven?

c. Do believers go there at any time? If so, when?

Many thanks,
Oz

A. The believe as the unbeliever returns to the dust and the breath returns to God.

B. Yes, there are several in Scripture. However, I assume you're referring to where God is.

C. According to the Scriptures, no, believers don't go there. Jesus and Paul make that clear.

33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.
38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
KJV John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (Jn. 13:33-14:3 KJV)

Jesus said where He was going they could not come. We know He was going to the Father. They couldn't come. He told them they couldn't follow Him then but would follow Him again later. How would they follow Him again later? The could follow Him later because He was coming back. He was coming back to receive them so that they could once again be where He was .

Paul makes it crystal clear what happens to a believer when he dies.


12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Cor. 15:12-18 KJV)

Paul says if there's no resurrection of the dead, then the dead believers have perished. He didn't say they were heaven or Abraham's bosom or someplace else. He said, they've perished. The "only" hope for the believer is the Resurrection, it's not Heaven, it's not as a ghost/spirit that goes someplace else, it's the Resurrection.

 

[Butch5]

My point was that nothing is stated in the Nicene Creed about what happens to believers immediately at death. However, the Nicene Creed affirms, 'I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come'. This means that there will be a resurrection of dead people and there is life in the world to come. Human beings are not zapped into extinction at death, according to the Nicene Creed.

The NIcene Creed says nothing about the time between death and the resurrection. You see, these debate stem from presuppositions that are brought to the text. That's why I try to establish things from the text. Gen 2 clearly explains the creation of man. If one wants to claim that there is some part of man that lives on after death that will need to be established.

 

[Butch5]

True plus Christ affirmed God is not the God of the dead...so no believer that has died is fully dead.

If you read that passage Jesus was talking about the Resurrection, not their current state.

 

[ewq1938]

Why don't you deal with these verses instead of giving this kind of generalised statement? We are not going to get anywhere if you don't deal with the Scriptures.

Post one verse at a time and I'll comment.

 

[OzSpen]

A. The believe as the unbeliever returns to the dust and the breath returns to God.

B. Yes, there are several in Scripture. However, I assume you're referring to where God is.

C. According to the Scriptures, no, believers don't go there. Jesus and Paul make that clear.

33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.
38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
KJV John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (Jn. 13:33-14:3 KJV)

Jesus said where He was going they could not come. We know He was going to the Father. They couldn't come. He told them they couldn't follow Him then but would follow Him again later. How would they follow Him again later? The could follow Him later because He was coming back. He was coming back to receive them so that they could once again be where He was .

Paul makes it crystal clear what happens to a believer when he dies.


12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Cor. 15:12-18 KJV)

Paul says if there's no resurrection of the dead, then the dead believers have perished. He didn't say they were heaven or Abraham's bosom or someplace else. He said, they've perished. The "only" hope for the believer is the Resurrection, it's not Heaven, it's not as a ghost/spirit that goes someplace else, it's the Resurrection.

I asked:
a. Where do believers go at death?

You responded:
A. The believe as the unbeliever returns to the dust and the breath returns to God.

Let's check with whether that agrees with biblical statements. There is an important word in the OT that is translated into Greek and that is the Hebrew, sheol, for life in the hereafter. The problem has been accentuated by the fact that sheol occurs 65 times in the OT and the KJV translates it as 'hell' 31 times, 'grave' 31 times, and 'pit' 33 times. This kind of inconsistency has caused confusion among Christians (Lutzer 1997:31).

So what happened at death according to the OT?

1. The grave (the resting place of the body) is distinct from sheol, which is where the spirits of the dead gather. We see this in verses such as Isa 14:9-10 (ESV). '“In the place of the dead [sheol] there is excitement over your arrival. The spirits of world leaders and mighty kings long dead stand up to see you. With one voice they all cry out, ‘Now you are as weak as we are!'.

2. Verses such as Ezek 26:20 (NASB) and Job 26:5-6 (NASB) speak of sheol as the 'pit' that was shadowy 'lower parts of the earth'.

3. So what happened at death for OT people? They were united with their ancestors in sheol. Gen 49:33 states he was 'gathered to his people' and Abraham would go to his fathers in peace (Gen 15:15).

So these three points indicated that when one entered sheol at death, they didn't all have the same experience. For some it was negative but for others it was the place where they dwelt with God (see Psalm 73:23-25).

4. OT provided hints of different regions in sheol, places for (a) the unrighteous, and (b) righteous. See Deut 32:22; Ps 49:13-15; 9:17; 16:10; 31:17; 55:17; Job 24:19).

So we can concluded from the OT information that sheol was a generic term to refer to the region of departed spirits. The inference is that at death the body is laid in the grave and the soul (unseen part) departs to sheol. That's what the OT person could expect one second after his/her last breath.

What is sheol translated as in the Greek? What is its meaning? That's for another post.

Oz

Works consulted
Lutzer, E W 1997. One Minute after You Die: A Preview of Your Final Destination. Chicago: Moody Press.

 

[Butch5]

I asked:
a. Where do believers go at death?

You responded:
A. The believe as the unbeliever returns to the dust and the breath returns to God.

Let's check with whether that agrees with biblical statements. There is an important word in the OT that is translated into Greek and that is the Hebrew, sheol, for life in the hereafter. The problem has been accentuated by the fact that sheol occurs 65 times in the OT and the KJV translates it as 'hell' 31 times, 'grave' 31 times, and 'pit' 33 times. This kind of inconsistency has caused confusion among Christians (Lutzer 1997:31).

So what happened at death according to the OT?

1. The grave (the resting place of the body) is distinct from sheol, which is where the spirits of the dead gather. We see this in verses such as Isa 14:9-10 (ESV). '“In the place of the dead [sheol] there is excitement over your arrival. The spirits of world leaders and mighty kings long dead stand up to see you. With one voice they all cry out, ‘Now you are as weak as we are!'.

2. Verses such as Ezek 26:20 (NASB) and Job 26:5-6 (NASB) speak of sheol as the 'pit' that was shadowy 'lower parts of the earth'.

3. So what happened at death for OT people? They were united with their ancestors in sheol. Gen 49:33 states he was 'gathered to his people' and Abraham would go to his fathers in peace (Gen 15:15).

So these three points indicated that when one entered sheol at death, they didn't all have the same experience. For some it was negative but for others it was the place where they dwelt with God (see Psalm 73:23-25).

4. OT provided hints of different regions in sheol, places for (a) the unrighteous, and ( B) righteous. See Deut 32:22; Ps 49:13-15; 9:17; 16:10; 31:17; 55:17; Job 24:19).

So we can concluded from the OT information that sheol was a generic term to refer to the region of departed spirits. The inference is that at death the body is laid in the grave and the soul (unseen part) departs to sheol. That's what the OT person could expect one second after his/her last breath.

What is sheol translated as in the Greek? What is its meaning? That's for another post.

Oz

Works consulted
Lutzer, E W 1997. One Minute after You Die: A Preview of Your Final Destination. Chicago: Moody Press.

You have a problem here Oz, Scripture doesn't say that the spirits of the dead go to sheol. You've brought to the text the idea that a "Soul" can live apart from the body. You also have to take into account metaphorical language. The problem is the presuppositions you're bringing to the text. Before you can prove that Martians were in your yard, you have to prove that Martians exist. If you just tell me there were Martians in your yard I'm not gonna bye it. So, to simply state that the soul goes to some place other than the grave needs to be proven.

As I pointed out. in Gen 2:7 we are giving the creation of man. God created man from the dust of the earth and breathed into him the breath of life and man "became" a living soul. Therefore a soul consists of a body and the breath of God. If you take either part away you no longer have a soul. Water is composed of oxygen and hydrogen. If you take either one away you no longer have water. Thus a soul requires a body.

The word soul, nephesh is used concretely and abstractly in Scripture. Concretely it is used of a living being, whether man or animal. Abstractly it is used of life. The Scriptures clearly state that the dead know nothing, they cannot praise God, their thoughts perish, etc. So, any passage that you present must reconcile with these statements. To claim that the dead are alive and conscious somewhere contradicts these statements, thus it cannot be true.

How does that even make sense to say the dead are alive? if they're alive then they're not dead. This whole concept of man being alive after he dies is a platonism it's not Scripture. As I pointed out Paul said if there is no resurrection from the dead then those believers who have died have perished. He didn't say they were in Heaven, or anywhere else, he said they've perished. Now if the dead were actually alive somewhere Paul couldn't make such a statement. IF they were alive somewhere then they haven't perished.

You see the problem is bringing presuppositions to the text rather than drawing things from the text. People already believe that the dead are alive and so when they see a passage that may be metaphorical or a literary device they say see, these people are alive even though they're dead. I mean do we realize how ridiculous we sound saying the dead are alive? it's a contradiction. If they're alive they're not dead.

Now if you can find something in Scripture that teaches that the dead are somehow alive, I mean something that teaches the concept not some passage from which the idea is inferred we can make progress. However, just presenting passage from which the idea is inferred doesn't move the conversation forward.

 

[OzSpen]

Post one verse at a time and I'll comment.

At #388, it was you who stated, 'Many verses speak of someone going to God or heaven after death...heaven is usually misunderstood as the eternity when it is not'. I asked you to tell us which of these verses you refer to.

It's up to you to deal with the verses, one verse at a time.

 

[OzSpen]

You have a problem here Oz, Scripture doesn't say that the spirits of the dead go to sheol. You've brought to the text the idea that a "Soul" can live apart from the body. You also have to take into account metaphorical language. The problem is the presuppositions you're bringing to the text. Before you can prove that Martians were in your yard, you have to prove that Martians exist. If you just tell me there were Martians in your yard I'm not gonna bye it. So, to simply state that the soul goes to some place other than the grave needs to be proven.

As I pointed out. in Gen 2:7 we are giving the creation of man. God created man from the dust of the earth and breathed into him the breath of life and man "became" a living soul. Therefore a soul consists of a body and the breath of God. If you take either part away you no longer have a soul. Water is composed of oxygen and hydrogen. If you take either one away you no longer have water. Thus a soul requires a body.

The word soul, nephesh is used concretely and abstractly in Scripture. Concretely it is used of a living being, whether man or animal. Abstractly it is used of life. The Scriptures clearly state that the dead know nothing, they cannot praise God, their thoughts perish, etc. So, any passage that you present must reconcile with these statements. To claim that the dead are alive and conscious somewhere contradicts these statements, thus it cannot be true.

How does that even make sense to say the dead are alive? if they're alive then they're not dead. This whole concept of man being alive after he dies is a platonism it's not Scripture. As I pointed out Paul said if there is no resurrection from the dead then those believers who have died have perished. He didn't say they were in Heaven, or anywhere else, he said they've perished. Now if the dead were actually alive somewhere Paul couldn't make such a statement. IF they were alive somewhere then they haven't perished.

You see the problem is bringing presuppositions to the text rather than drawing things from the text. People already believe that the dead are alive and so when they see a passage that may be metaphorical or a literary device they say see, these people are alive even though they're dead. I mean do we realize how ridiculous we sound saying the dead are alive? it's a contradiction. If they're alive they're not dead.

Now if you can find something in Scripture that teaches that the dead are somehow alive, I mean something that teaches the concept not some passage from which the idea is inferred we can make progress. However, just presenting passage from which the idea is inferred doesn't move the conversation forward.

Butch,

You're the one with the problem. I posted the biblical verses to support my position. What do I get from you? You give 6 paragraphs with only one verse (Gen 2:7). The rest is out of your mind. It is not backed by Scripture. If you continue this approach, I will not be responding. I'm not the slightest bit interested in responding to your unsubstantiated opinions. You can try that on someone else.

 

[Butch5]

Butch,

You're the one with the problem. I posted the biblical verses to support my position. What do I get from you? You give 6 paragraphs with only one verse (Gen 2:7). The rest is out of your mind. It is not backed by Scripture. If you continue this approach, I will not be responding. I'm not the slightest bit interested in responding to your unsubstantiated opinions. You can try that on someone else.

Seriously Oz? You have a PHD so I am assuming that you know the difference between something taught and an inference.If I say the Scriptures teach justification by faith, I can say read Romans 3 and 4. In that passage Paul lays out an argument how that a man is not justified by keeping the Law of Moses but rather he is justified by having faith. That is a teaching. To post this passage,

20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek. 26:20 KJV)

and then say this proves that man can live after death is an inference. The passage says nothing about man being alive after death.

When the Scriptures "TEACH" something it is layed out and shown plainly. When people post a passage from which something has been inferred that is "NOT" the Scriptures teaching it.

I asked you where do the Scriptures "TEACH" that man is alive when he dies.

To support my position I gave Gen 2:7 where God teaches us what a man is.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

So, what did God say man was?

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:19 KJV)

God said that Adam was dust. He didn't say Adam was dust and a spirit, He said Adam was dust and to the dust he would return.

What does Ecclesiastes say?

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Eccl. 3:18-21 KJV)

Solomon indicates the same thing God did, they are dust. He goes on.


5 Also of that which is high they are afraid, And of the low places in the way, And the almond-tree is despised, And the grasshopper is become a burden, And want is increased, For man is going unto his home age-during, And the mourners have gone round through the street.
6 While that the silver cord is not removed, And the golden bowl broken, And the pitcher broken by the fountain, And the wheel broken at the well.
7 And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it. (Eccl. 12:5-7 YLT)

The dust returns to the earth and the breath returns to God who gave it. That is the opposite of what we see in Gen 2. In Gen 2 we see God making man out of the dust and putting the breath into him. In Ecc. 12 we see the man returning to dust and the breath returning to God.

If you notice, the passages I've posted actually tell us what happens and how thing are done. I've not just taken a passage that mentions dust and see see this proves my point. This is what I asked you to do for your position. Show me where Scripture teaches that a man is alive somewhere after his body dies. I know you won't be able to do that because it's not in the Scriptures as it would contradict what I've posted here. I was hoping that you'd realize that and look at the subject a little closer.

It's interesting that you called my post unsubstantiated opinions, when you've present an unargued philosophical bias. As I said, you've not proven your premise, you've simply given me passages from which it's been inferred.

You posted this passage,


5 The Rephaim are formed, Beneath the waters, also their inhabitants.
6 Naked is Sheol over-against Him, And there is no covering to destruction. (Job 26:5-6 YLT)

Where does this teach us what happens to man when he dies?

33 And Jacob finisheth commanding his sons, and gathereth up his feet unto the bed, and expireth, and is gathered unto his people. (Gen. 49:33 YLT)

Where does this passage tells us that a man is alive when he dies?

22 For a fire hath been kindled in Mine anger, And it burneth unto Sheol -- the lowest, And consumeth earth and its increase, And setteth on fire foundations of mountains. (Deut. 32:22 YLT)

Where does this passage tell us that men are alive when the die?




13 This their way is folly for them, And their posterity with their sayings are pleased. Selah.
14 As sheep for Sheol they have set themselves, Death doth afflict them, And the upright rule over them in the morning, And their form is for consumption. Sheol is a dwelling for him.
15 Only, God doth ransom my soul from the hand of Sheol, For He doth receive me. Selah. (Ps. 49:13-15 YLT)

Where does this passage say that a man is alive when he is dead?

I'm not going to post every passage, but I think that the point is pretty clear that it is from inference that support seems to be coming.


What I laid out was clear and plainly stated in Scripture, I didn't use any inferences or such. If you don't want to discuss it that's fine, but please don't say all I've given are unsubstantiated opinions.

 

[ewq1938]

At #388, it was you who stated, 'Many verses speak of someone going to God or heaven after death...heaven is usually misunderstood as the eternity when it is not'. I asked you to tell us which of these verses you refer to.

It's up to you to deal with the verses, one verse at a time.

I thought you were referring to other verses. Let's start with this because posting the supporting verses may be a waste of time....do you believe the soul and spirit remains alive after physical death? If you do, we believe the same and there is no need to cover verses which show what we both already believe.

 

[OzSpen]

Seriously Oz? You have a PHD so I am assuming that you know the difference between something taught and an inference.If I say the Scriptures teach justification by faith, I can say read Romans 3 and 4. In that passage Paul lays out an argument how that a man is not justified by keeping the Law of Moses but rather he is justified by having faith. That is a teaching. To post this passage,

20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek. 26:20 KJV)

and then say this proves that man can live after death is an inference. The passage says nothing about man being alive after death.

When the Scriptures "TEACH" something it is layed out and shown plainly. When people post a passage from which something has been inferred that is "NOT" the Scriptures teaching it.

I asked you where do the Scriptures "TEACH" that man is alive when he dies.

To support my position I gave Gen 2:7 where God teaches us what a man is.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

So, what did God say man was?

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:19 KJV)

God said that Adam was dust. He didn't say Adam was dust and a spirit, He said Adam was dust and to the dust he would return.

What does Ecclesiastes say?

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Eccl. 3:18-21 KJV)

Solomon indicates the same thing God did, they are dust. He goes on.


5 Also of that which is high they are afraid, And of the low places in the way, And the almond-tree is despised, And the grasshopper is become a burden, And want is increased, For man is going unto his home age-during, And the mourners have gone round through the street.
6 While that the silver cord is not removed, And the golden bowl broken, And the pitcher broken by the fountain, And the wheel broken at the well.
7 And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it. (Eccl. 12:5-7 YLT)

The dust returns to the earth and the breath returns to God who gave it. That is the opposite of what we see in Gen 2. In Gen 2 we see God making man out of the dust and putting the breath into him. In Ecc. 12 we see the man returning to dust and the breath returning to God.

If you notice, the passages I've posted actually tell us what happens and how thing are done. I've not just taken a passage that mentions dust and see see this proves my point. This is what I asked you to do for your position. Show me where Scripture teaches that a man is alive somewhere after his body dies. I know you won't be able to do that because it's not in the Scriptures as it would contradict what I've posted here. I was hoping that you'd realize that and look at the subject a little closer.

It's interesting that you called my post unsubstantiated opinions, when you've present an unargued philosophical bias. As I said, you've not proven your premise, you've simply given me passages from which it's been inferred.

You posted this passage,


5 The Rephaim are formed, Beneath the waters, also their inhabitants.
6 Naked is Sheol over-against Him, And there is no covering to destruction. (Job 26:5-6 YLT)

Where does this teach us what happens to man when he dies?

33 And Jacob finisheth commanding his sons, and gathereth up his feet unto the bed, and expireth, and is gathered unto his people. (Gen. 49:33 YLT)

Where does this passage tells us that a man is alive when he dies?

22 For a fire hath been kindled in Mine anger, And it burneth unto Sheol -- the lowest, And consumeth earth and its increase, And setteth on fire foundations of mountains. (Deut. 32:22 YLT)

Where does this passage tell us that men are alive when the die?




13 This their way is folly for them, And their posterity with their sayings are pleased. Selah.
14 As sheep for Sheol they have set themselves, Death doth afflict them, And the upright rule over them in the morning, And their form is for consumption. Sheol is a dwelling for him.
15 Only, God doth ransom my soul from the hand of Sheol, For He doth receive me. Selah. (Ps. 49:13-15 YLT)

Where does this passage say that a man is alive when he is dead?

I'm not going to post every passage, but I think that the point is pretty clear that it is from inference that support seems to be coming.


What I laid out was clear and plainly stated in Scripture, I didn't use any inferences or such. If you don't want to discuss it that's fine, but please don't say all I've given are unsubstantiated opinions.

You haven't dealt with my material presented at #393. I said I would begin to address your issues one point at a time. I did that, but you refused to use the information I presented.

The issue has nothing whatsoever with whether I have a PhD or not. It has to deal with being honest with the material I present and you have refused to deal with it from a biblical perspective.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I thought you were referring to other verses. Let's start with this because posting the supporting verses may be a waste of time....do you believe the soul and spirit remains alive after physical death? If you do, we believe the same and there is no need to cover verses which show what we both already believe.

ewq,


Biblically, we need some clarification:

• 
  The words "soul" and "spirit" can be used interchangeably.
  

In John 12:27, Jesus said, "Now is my soul (psuche) troubled, while in a similar context in the next chapter he said, "Jesus was troubled in his spirit (pneuma) [John 13:21]" This hardly means that Jesus "life force" (breath) was troubled.

• 
  At death, the "soul" or "spirit" departs.
  

When Rachel died, the Bible records: "Her soul (nephesh) was departing [she had died]" (Gen. 35:18), but Eccl. 12:7 records that at death, "the spirit (ruach) returns to God who gave it." This hardly means that one's "life force" (breath) was returning to God.

• 
  A human being is said to consist of either "body and soul" or "body and spirit."
  

In Matt. 10: 28, we read, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul (psuche). Rather fear him who can destroy both soul (psuche) and body in hell" (ESV). It seems clear from this verse that "soul" refers to the part of the person that lives beyond death. If the "soul" was only a "life force", it could be killed. That's not what Jesus said. His authoritative view was that the "soul" cannot be killed. It cannot die.

But when Paul wants to deliver an erring brother over to Satan, he said that it was "for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit (pneuma) may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Cor. 5:5).

Therefore, in both OT and NT, "soul" and "spirit" can be used interchangeably.

So, what does "spirit" mean when applied to a human being, in the light of the above scriptural explanation? Most people, Christian and non-Christian, believe that there is an immaterial part to human beings, a soul / spirit that will live on beyond the "life force" (or breath) that has left the body.

There are occasions in the Bible when "spirit" is used to refer to the breath of animals or human beings, but the above verses show that spirit / soul refers to the immaterial part of the human unity (body and soul/spirit) that goes to be with Christ and cannot be killed.

This soul can sin. This is implied from verses such as 1 Peter 1:22, "Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart" (ESV). Surely this does not refer to breath or life force!

Let's get no more complicated than the simplicity of what the Bible states that the spirit of a human being goes to God at death and it cannot be killed. Simply: the spirit/soul of a human being is the immaterial part of us that survives death.

Perhaps we are on the same biblical path.

Oz