How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[Butch5]

Butch,

I understand the biblical evidence to present a slightly different picture to what you are saying here.

There is biblical evidence that Jesus' resurrected body was the same but different to the one that went into Joseph of Arimathea's tomb. Here's the evidence:

Sameness

Examples of the sameness of Jesus’ resurrected body (contrary to the spiritualising, metaphorical and apparitional views), based on the clarity of Scripture, include:

(1) Jesus’ followers could recognise his face and voice, including holding his feet and talking to him (Mt 28:9; Lk 24:32; Jn 20:16, 19-20; 21:12);

(2) Some touched his body or were invited to (Mt 28:9; Lk 24:39; Jn 20:17, 27); the scar marks from crucifixion were visible (Lk 24:39; Jn 20:20). Marcus Loane’s comment was that ‘those marks were the infallible proof that His body risen was identical with His body buried’ (Loane 1965:17).

(3) He ate with them (Lk 24:30, 42-43; Jn 21:12-13; Ac 10:40-42);

(4) Jesus was clear about the nature of his post-resurrection body: ‘A spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have’ (Lk 24:39).

Differences

However, there were differences, changes in his body, through his resurrection from the dead. Schep’s language is that ‘there are mysterious elements in the appearance narratives’ (Schep 1976:92) and these include,

(1) His appearing and disappearing at will, like that which happened when he vanished from communication with the two people on the Emmaus road (Lk 24:31). In this verse, this is the only use of aphontos in the New Testament and it means to ‘vanish’ from someone (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:124). Schep (1976:82) considered it to be ‘a supernatural disappearance’, while Howard Marshall explains the word as meaning ‘he becomes invisible once he has been recognised…. It is as a supernatural visitor that the risen Jesus is portrayed’ in this verse (Marshall 1978:898).

(2) A sudden and miraculous appearance is suggested in Luke 24:36 when ‘Jesus himself stood among them’.
Could this account for the disciples being ‘startled and frightened’ as they ‘thought they saw a spirit’ (Lk 24:37)? When John recorded this event, he spoke of ‘the doors being locked’ and that ‘Jesus came and stood among them’ (the disciples) (Jn 20:19). There are not indicators of how Jesus overcame the difficulties of how Jesus stood among them when the doors were locked.

(3) There are Scriptures recording that Jesus was not recognised on first indications by those who saw him (see Mt 28:17; Lk 24:16-32); Jn 20:14-17). Schep’s perceptive analysis was that

‘all these mysterious and miraculous elements, together with the miraculous ascension, show that Jesus’ body, though consisting of flesh and bones, was now in a glorified condition and capable of acting independently of the laws of time and space. This does not imply that He Himself was beyond time and space, for this again would mean the annihilation of his true humanity. His body was what Paul called a “spiritual body,” (1 Cor 15:44; Phil 3:20). The word “spiritual” in this connection does not mean “immaterial”’ for Jesus’ body’ (Schep 1976:82).

Ladd summarised the ‘the same but different’ resurrected body of Jesus and its meaning: ‘The resurrection body of Jesus was of the same order as the resurrection bodies of the saints at the end of the age’ (Ladd 1975:123; emphasis in original).

Yes, the resurrected body of Jesus had many of the same features as that which went into the grave, but there were different dimensions that Jesus did not have prior to Golgotha. He was the same, but different.

Oz

Works consulted

[SIZE=11pt]Arndt, W F & Gingrich, F W 1957. A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]early Christian literature[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press (limited edition [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]licensed to Zondervan Publishing House).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Ladd, G E 1975. I believe in the resurrection of Jesus. Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Eerdmans Publishing Company.[/SIZE]

Loane, M L 1965. It is the Lord. London: Marshall, Morgan and Scott.

[SIZE=11pt]Marshall, I H 1978. The gospel of Luke: A commentary on the Greek text (The new international Greek testament commentary). Grand Rapids,Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Schep, J A 1976. Resurrection of Jesus Christ, in Tenney, M C (gen ed) The Zondervan[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] pictorial encyclopedia of the Bible[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt], Vol 5, 75-83. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House.[/SIZE]

Well, firstly, it was the same body. Whether it had additional qualities or not doesn't take away from the fact that it was the same body. Secondly, what you've quoted here assumes that the events were due to Jesus' body. It's also just as possible that the Father was simply moving Jesus miraculously from one place to another. Remember, Jesus told His disciples that the world would see Him no more. So He couldn't just walk down the street to get from point A to point B. As mentioned above we're not given the information so anything beyond what is stated is speculation. However, as I pointed out, it has to be the same body for it to be a resurrection. A different body would be Reincarnation not Resurrection.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

a brand new body at the resurrection right ?

not the old one because it turn to dust or burned up

but it has to come from out of the ground ? or spoken back into existence from out of nothing



Doesn't 1Thess 4:14 say God bring them back with him to meet the others.
Now there a scripture to show saints in heaven now.
I don't think they are naked

 

[Butch5]

a brand new body at the resurrection right ?

not the old one because it turn to dust or burned up

but it has to come from out of the ground ? or spoken back into existence from out of nothing



Doesn't 1Thess 4:14 say God bring them back with him to meet the others.
Now there a scripture to show saints in heaven now.
I don't think they are naked

No, it doesn't. I believe the passages isn't translated correctly. Let me submit this.

14 For since we trust that Jesus died and arose, in the same manner God, through Jesus,28 shall also with Him together lead forth those who have fallen asleep.29 1


The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. 4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. 11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Ezek. 37:1 KJV)

 

[ewq1938]

a brand new body at the resurrection right ?

Yes the saved get a new body not the old one.

not the old one because it turn to dust or burned up

but it has to come from out of the ground ? or spoken back into existence from out of nothing

As Paul writes, what was "planted" or buried in the ground is not the same body that will be received.

Doesn't 1Thess 4:14 say God bring them back with him to meet the others.
Now there a scripture to show saints in heaven now.
I don't think they are naked

They don't have bodies yet so they can't be naked plus they have a symbolic robe signifying righteousness, Rev 6:11

 

[OzSpen]

Well, firstly, it was the same body. Whether it had additional qualities or not doesn't take away from the fact that it was the same body. Secondly, what you've quoted here assumes that the events were due to Jesus' body. It's also just as possible that the Father was simply moving Jesus miraculously from one place to another. Remember, Jesus told His disciples that the world would see Him no more. So He couldn't just walk down the street to get from point A to point B. As mentioned above we're not given the information so anything beyond what is stated is speculation. However, as I pointed out, it has to be the same body for it to be a resurrection. A different body would be Reincarnation not Resurrection.

No, it was the same body - but different - and i provided the biblical evidence. You have not refuted that evidence.

 

[ewq1938]

No, it was the same body - but different - and i provided the biblical evidence. You have not refuted that evidence.

His original body was changed into the spiritual body just as the living will be changed at the second coming. It's not the same body after the change.

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

 

[OzSpen]

His original body was changed into the spiritual body just as the living will be changed at the second coming. It's not the same body after the change.

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

What is a 'spiritual body'? Sounds more like a round square!

With what kind of body are the dead raised (1 Cor 15:35)? I Cor 15:42-44 states: ‘So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: it is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a soma psychikon; it is raised a soma pneumatikon. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body’ (KJV).

Verse 44 supplies part of the answer, ‘It is sown a soma psychikon; it is raised a soma pneumatikon’. However, what is the meaning of psychikon? In the concluding verses of this 1 Cor 15, Paul emphasises the contrast between psychikon and pneumatikon, between the body that dies and the one that is resurrected: perishable / imperishable (corruption / incorruption), dishonour / glory, weakness / power, natural / spiritual, and mortality / immortality.

In 1 Corinthians 2:14, the psychikoi (natural man or woman) and the pneumatikoi (those with the Spirit) are used to contrast those who are merely human with those who have the Spirit (Fee 1987:116). From the nouns in 1 Cor 2, Paul moves to 1 Cor 15:44 where ‘the two adjectives “natural” (psychikos) and “spiritual” (pneumatikos) are used with the noun “body” (sōma) to describe its present earthly and future heavenly expression respectively’.

Fee’s contention is that the use of this language ‘must have had special shock value in Corinth, where the word pneumatikos is most likely what set them apart from Paul and was a catchword for their antisomatic understanding of Christian existence. They would probably have had little trouble with the description of the present body as psychikos. But the use of pneumatikos to describe sōma must have been troublesome indeed’. Fee explains that ‘natural’ versus ‘spiritual’ is describing the contrast between the life of the body in the present age and Spirit-animated life of the body in the age to come. It is ‘spiritual’, not because it is ‘immaterial’ but because it is ‘supernatural’, as explained in 1 Corinthians 15:45.

Then Paul uses analogies from everyday life to describe the two different bodies. There is a genuine continuity between the body in this age and the resurrection body in the age to come (Fee 1987:785-786). The contrast is between a body on earth that is corruptible and will decay, die and disintegrate and resurrected body which cannot and will not decay or die; something permanent, established, not transient or temporary and a resurrected body that is ‘a life indwelt by the Spirit of God’ (Wright 2003:347, 350).

The emphasis in 1 Corinthians 15 is on a future resurrected body that is different from that which is experienced in earthly existence, but there is continuity – it is a sōma (body).

Oz

Works consulted
[SIZE=11pt]Fee, G D 1987. The first epistle to the Corinthians (The new international commentary on the [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]New Testament, F F Bruce gen ed). Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=11pt]Wright, N T 2003. The resurrection of the son of God. Minneapolis: Fortress Press. (Series [/SIZE]in Christian origins and the question of God, vol 3).

 

[Bible_Gazer]

No, it doesn't. I believe the passages isn't translated correctly. Let me submit this.


14 For since we trust that Jesus died and arose, in the same manner God, through Jesus,28 shall also with Him together lead forth those who have fallen asleep.29 1


The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. 4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. 11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Ezek. 37:1 KJV)

That is a problem when one thinks the bible is not correct so we add our version .


Ezek.37 is talking about the restoration of Israel not a literal raising from the ground dead.
Its the diaspora. They are dry bone now without Jesus and the Holy spirit. Ezek. 39 will fix that along with Ezek.36
That is how see it.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

Yes the saved get a new body not the old one.


They don't have bodies yet so they can't be naked plus they have a symbolic robe signifying righteousness, Rev 6:11

Rev.6:11 the white robe is the new body it was given to them

Revelation 7:14
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation,
and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These saints washed their robes white = They are still in their flesh body living forever pure and holy.
A white robe is not given to them.
This is during the millennium and forever.

 

[Butch5]

That is a problem when one thinks the bible is not correct so we add our version .


Ezek.37 is talking about the restoration of Israel not a literal raising from the ground dead.
Its the diaspora. They are dry bone now without Jesus and the Holy spirit. Ezek. 39 will fix that along with Ezek.36
That is how see it.

But how you see it doesn't change what it says. God explained it to Ezekiel. He said He would open their graves, bring them out, and put His breath in them and they would live. That is resurrection.

 

[Butch5]

No, it was the same body - but different - and i provided the biblical evidence. You have not refuted that evidence.

I didn't attempt to refute any evidence. What you gave me was speculation. Yes, Jesus appeared in a locked room. However, the Scriptures don't tell us how He Got there. It could have been that there were special properties to this resurrected body. It could also be that God miraculously put Him in the room without anything on Jesus ' part. We're not told one way or the other. So, to make a claim one way or the other is speculation. What we are told is that His resurrected body had the nail marks and the cut in His side indicating that it was the same body that was on the cross.

 

[OzSpen]

I didn't attempt to refute any evidence. What you gave me was speculation. Yes, Jesus appeared in a locked room. However, the Scriptures don't tell us how He Got there. It could have been that there were special properties to this resurrected body. It could also be that God miraculously put Him in the room without anything on Jesus ' part. We're not told one way or the other. So, to make a claim one way or the other is speculation. What we are told is that His resurrected body had the nail marks and the cut in His side indicating that it was the same body that was on the cross.

Butch,

I'm disappointed that you can't tell the difference between the scriptural evidence I provided an your attributing it to 'speculation'. We cannot have a rational conversation when you erect this kind of straw man fallacy.

It is you who is providing speculation with your post.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

But how you see it doesn't change what it says. God explained it to Ezekiel. He said He would open their graves, bring them out, and put His breath in them and they would live. That is resurrection.

He is telling about the whole house of Israel as a nation .

Nation of Israel died while Ezekiel was in prison in Babylon.
Now the nation of Israel has come back to life again, a resurrection.
But the full restoration is not completed yet.

 

[Butch5]

He is telling about the whole house of Israel as a nation .

Nation of Israel died while Ezekiel was in prison in Babylon.
Now the nation of Israel has come back to life again, a resurrection.
But the full restoration is not completed yet.

Nah, the nation of Israel isn't in a grave, doesn't have bones, flesh and breath. He's talking about people.The point of resurrection is that it is the same body that stands again. A different body is reincarnation not resurrection.

 

[Butch5]

Butch,

I'm disappointed that you can't tell the difference between the scriptural evidence I provided an your attributing it to 'speculation'. We cannot have a rational conversation when you erect this kind of straw man fallacy.

It is you who is providing speculation with your post.

Oz,

Why is it that every time someone disagrees with you it's a straw man fallacy or red herring? The Biblical evidence you gave showed that Jesus appeared in a locked room. Please show me where Scripture explains how He got into that locked room. It doesn't. Scripture is silent on how Jesus got into that room. I granted that your presentation was plausible, however, that's as far as you can take it because Scripture is silent on how He got into that room. Your presentation is a possible explanation. However, there are other possible explanations that are just as plausible.

You didn't present anything from Scripture that states outright that Jesus resurrected body has qualities that our doesn't. If you can present such evidence then you've made you point. If not,then all you've got is speculation.

Regarding fallacies, you're argument a false cause. Just because Jesus appeared in a locked room is not proof that His body had some kind of special qualities.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

The Biblical evidence you gave showed that Jesus appeared in a locked room. Please show me where Scripture explains how He got into that locked room. It doesn't. Scripture is silent on how Jesus got into that room. I granted that your presentation was plausible, however, that's as far as you can take it because Scripture is silent on how He got into that room. Your presentation is a possible explanation. However, there are other possible explanations that are just as plausible.

You didn't present anything from Scripture that states outright that Jesus resurrected body has qualities that our doesn't. If you can present such evidence then you've made you point. If not,then all you've got is speculation.

Regarding fallacies, you're argument a false cause. Just because Jesus appeared in a locked room is not proof that His body had some kind of special qualities.

Butch,

Why is it that every time someone disagrees with you it's a straw man fallacy or red herring?

This is a false accusation. 'Every time' is your inaccurate hyperbole. Please be assured I only draw attention to logical fallacies committed because that is actually what happens. When people use logical fallacies, we cannot have a logical discussion, that is now being demonstrated in your response to me.

Back in #341, I wrote:

Differences

However, there were differences, changes in his body, through his resurrection from the dead. Schep’s language is that ‘there are mysterious elements in the appearance narratives’ (Schep 1976:92) and these include,

(1) His appearing and disappearing at will, like that which happened when he vanished from communication with the two people on the Emmaus road (Lk 24:31). In this verse, this is the only use of aphontos in the New Testament and it means to ‘vanish’ from someone (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:124). Schep (1976:82) considered it to be ‘a supernatural disappearance’, while Howard Marshall explains the word as meaning ‘he becomes invisible once he has been recognised…. It is as a supernatural visitor that the risen Jesus is portrayed’ in this verse (Marshall 1978:898).

(2) A sudden and miraculous appearance is suggested in Luke 24:36 when ‘Jesus himself stood among them’.
Could this account for the disciples being ‘startled and frightened’ as they ‘thought they saw a spirit’ (Lk 24:37)? When John recorded this event, he spoke of ‘the doors being locked’ and that ‘Jesus came and stood among them’ (the disciples) (Jn 20:19). There are not indicators of how Jesus overcame the difficulties of how Jesus stood among them when the doors were locked.

(3) There are Scriptures recording that Jesus was not recognised on first indications by those who saw him (see Mt 28:17; Lk 24:16-32); Jn 20:14-17). Schep’s perceptive analysis was that

‘all these mysterious and miraculous elements, together with the miraculous ascension, show that Jesus’ body, though consisting of flesh and bones, was now in a glorified condition and capable of acting independently of the laws of time and space. This does not imply that He Himself was beyond time and space, for this again would mean the annihilation of his true humanity. His body was what Paul called a “spiritual body,” (1 Cor 15:44; Phil 3:20). The word “spiritual” in this connection does not mean “immaterial”’ for Jesus’ body’ (Schep 1976:82).

Ladd summarised the ‘the same but different’ resurrected body of Jesus and its meaning: ‘The resurrection body of Jesus was of the same order as the resurrection bodies of the saints at the end of the age’ (Ladd 1975:123; emphasis in original).

That explanation was approved by the examiners of my PhD dissertation in NT, but it's not good enough for you. I give up trying to please you. It's not a matter of 'You didn't present anything from Scripture that states outright that Jesus resurrected body has qualities that our doesn't. If you can present such evidence then you've made you point. If not,then all you've got is speculation.'.

I presented the evidence direct from Scripture but you don't like it, so you accuse me of getting it from 'speculation'. No, I got it from Scripture and you're wanting a different version, i.e. Jesus' resurrected body was no different from ours. As I demonstrated at #341 that there is a 'sameness' about his resurrected body and 'differences' to that which went into the tomb.

However, I give up trying to convince you from Scripture that this is the case. :wub:

Oz

 

[ewq1938]

What is a 'spiritual body'? Sounds more like a round square!

1Co_15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

With what kind of body are the dead raised (1 Cor 15:35)? I Cor 15:42-44 states: ‘So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: it is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a soma psychikon; it is raised a soma pneumatikon. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body’ (KJV).

Verse 44 supplies part of the answer, ‘It is sown a soma psychikon; it is raised a soma pneumatikon’. However, what is the meaning of psychikon? In the concluding verses of this 1 Cor 15, Paul emphasises the contrast between psychikon and pneumatikon, between the body that dies and the one that is resurrected: perishable / imperishable (corruption / incorruption), dishonour / glory, weakness / power, natural / spiritual, and mortality / immortality.

The definition really doesn't matter in the current discussion. Some claim the saved dead are raised back into the same body they died in but scripture says they get a new, different body.

 

[ewq1938]

Rev.6:11 the white robe is the new body it was given to them

And? That's obvious from the text. They are not naked in heaven and they do not yet have a body.

Revelation 7:14
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation,
and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These saints washed their robes white = They are still in their flesh body living forever pure and holy.

Washing robes white is figurative of going from sinners to being saved. It doesn't have anything at all to do with bodies.

A white robe is not given to them.
This is during the millennium and forever.

It doesn't matter if a robe is given or washed....it's purely a metaphor for being righteous.

 

[OzSpen]

1Co_15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


The definition really doesn't matter in the current discussion. Some claim the saved dead are raised back into the same body they died in but scripture says they get a new, different body.

Please defend where Scripture says that they get 'a new different body' at the resurrection. However, you've stated that the definition doesn't matter, so maybe there is no need to continue this discussion.

 

[Butch5]

[SIZE=8pt][/SIZE]

This is a false accusation. 'Every time' is your inaccurate hyperbole. Please be assured I only draw attention to logical fallacies committed because that is actually what happens. When people use logical fallacies, we cannot have a logical discussion, that is now being demonstrated in your response to me.

[SIZE=8pt]Yes, I was using hyperbole. It's point out that not everything is fallacy. A fallacy is a flaw in reasoning. My saying you gave me speculation is not a fallacy. I would submit it's being demonstrated because you're not being logical.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]

Differences

[SIZE=7.5pt]However, there were differences, changes in his body, through his resurrection from the dead. Schep’s language is that ‘there are mysterious elements in the appearance narratives’ (Schep 1976:92) and these include,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=7.5pt](1) His appearing and disappearing at will, like that which happened when he vanished from communication with the two people on the Emmaus road (Lk 24:31http://biblia.com/bible/hcsb/Luke 24.31). In this verse, this is the only use of aphontos in the New Testament and it means to ‘vanish’ from someone (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:124). Schep (1976:82) considered it to be ‘a supernatural disappearance’, while Howard Marshall explains the word as meaning ‘he becomes invisible once he has been recognised…. It is as a supernatural visitor that the risen Jesus is portrayed’ in this verse (Marshall 1978:898).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=7.5pt](2) A sudden and miraculous appearance is suggested in Luke 24:36http://biblia.com/bible/hcsb/Luke 24.36 when ‘Jesus himself stood among them’.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=7.5pt]Could this account for the disciples being ‘startled and frightened’ as they ‘thought they saw a spirit’ (Lk 24:37http://biblia.com/bible/hcsb/Luke 24.37)? When John recorded this event, he spoke of ‘the doors being locked’ and that ‘Jesus came and stood among them’ (the disciples) (Jn 20:19[/SIZE]). There are not indicators of how Jesus overcame the difficulties of how Jesus stood among them when the doors were locked.

[SIZE=7.5pt](3) There are Scriptures recording that Jesus was not recognised on first indications by those who saw him (see Mt 28:17http://biblia.com/bible/hcsb/Matt 28.17; Lk 24:16-32[/SIZE]); Jn 20:14-17). Schep’s perceptive analysis was that

[SIZE=7.5pt]‘all these mysterious and miraculous elements, together with the miraculous ascension, show that Jesus’ body, though consisting of flesh and bones, was now in a glorified condition and capable of acting independently of the laws of time and space. This does not imply that He Himself was beyond time and space, for this again would mean the annihilation of his true humanity. His body was what Paul called a “spiritual body,” (1 Cor 15:44http://biblia.com/bible/hcsb/1 Cor 15.44; Phil 3:20[/SIZE]). The word “spiritual” in this connection does not mean “immaterial”’ for Jesus’ body’ (Schep 1976:82).

[SIZE=7.5pt]Ladd summarised the ‘the same but different’ resurrected body of Jesus and its meaning: ‘The resurrection body of Jesus was of the same order as the resurrection bodies of the saints at the end of the age’ (Ladd 1975:123; emphasis in original).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=8pt]That explanation was approved by the examiners of my PhD dissertation in NT, but it's not good enough for you. I give up trying to please you. It's not a matter of 'You didn't present anything from Scripture that states outright that Jesus resurrected body has qualities that our doesn't. If you can present such evidence then you've made you point. If not,then all you've got is speculation.'.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=8pt]Not at all Oz, However, we have to be logical. a fact is something that can be established. "for by grace you are saved by faith" is a fact. It can be verified by reading Ephesians 2:8. What you've presented is the opinions of several writers. What makes what they say correct? If you want I'll break down their quotes. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=8pt][quoteI presented the evidence direct from Scripture but you don't like it, so you accuse me of getting it from 'speculation'. No, I got it from Scripture and you're wanting a different version, i.e. Jesus' resurrected body was no different from ours. As I demonstrated at #341 that there is a 'sameness' about his resurrected body and 'differences' to that which went into the tomb.[/quote][/SIZE]

[SIZE=8pt]No Oz, what you gave me were the thoughts of men regarding certain events in Scripture. In the quotes they simply attributed things to Jesus' resurrected body. They gave no evidence that the conclusion they'd drawn was a necessary one.[/SIZE]