Human Freewill the devil's greatest trick

[Stumpmaster]

What you are saying in the above statement, is that disobedience to God is not a sin. You're saying that sin only arose AFTER disobedience occurred. I invite you to rethink that statement.

Why would you infer such a thing and make such a disingenuous remark as that? Adam and Eve had no sin to their account before they disobeyed God, and once they disobeyed God they were sinners.

 

[Renniks]

If you stayed in bed because your back hurt, then you'd be doing it because your back hurt. Cause and effect. Not free choice. A choice highly skewed by impacts and forces acting upon you. The very fact that you can contemplate staying in bed is because you have a bed.

But you can't not sleep. You can hold out for a while but eventually you WILL sleep. You have no choice in that matter. That's because you have been designed and built in a certain way whether you like it or not. It is a restriction, a constraint. You can not swim underwater for any significant length of time because of the way you have been built. Your choices are an illusion. They only appear like choices because you can not compute the infinite variables in play, the infinite forces acting upon your brain and all your bodily sensors. It is all totally predictable because everything occurs via the principle of cause and effect. That is why God knows all. He can compute all of those variables and see every chain of cause and effect. From the moment the universe was set in motion, everything was inevitable. It is like one gigantic computer programme.

Lol, your arguement is extremely weak. Just because I have a reason for something does not mean it was the only choice I can make. At any point in every day there's a multitude of choices that can change what happens. And the ripple effect means my Choices effect affect other people's choices... now take somebody that's a head of a company or has a large influence on a lot of different people This becomes Multiplied almost too far to count. Just one choice by a President for example can literally change the world.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Lol, your arguement is extremely weak. Just because I have a reason for something does not mean it was the only choice I can make. At any point in every day there's a multitude of choices that can change what happens. And the ripple effect means my Choices effect affect other people's choices... now take somebody that's a head of a company or has a large influence on a lot of different people This becomes Multiplied almost too far to count. Just one choice by a President for example can literally change the world.

Yes, yes, yes. Well said Renniks. Since only God is without cause, everything has a cause or causes. Those who argue that because God is the cause of existence He must be the cause of evil or unrighteousness miss the point that God has included a capacity for individuals to make choices which may be predictable but are not predetermined in the fatalistic sense of being fixed by Divine Decree.

Joh 7:37-39 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. (38) He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

[Billy Evmur]

Satan could not have tempted Eve (followed by Adam), if there was no freewill.

Adam and Eve were FREE, they could choose, they chose to sell themselves and us into bondage. We are not free, we have no choice.

We are bound to sin
we are bound to die

These 2 things govern our whole lives, only Jesus can set us free once more. And this He has done at the cross.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Soooooo he did predestine you to write the OP???

Did he predestine other men to write that we are not predestined????

He predestined that those who receive Christ should be set free .. are YOU free?

 

[Billy Evmur]

Maybe it’s something in between

God gives we receive

 

[Billy Evmur]

Do you have your own brand of predestinationism?
Are you going to name it after yourself?
And the people here are not making a mistake I can give you an avalanche of definitions for predestinationism.
But if your definition is different than how it is commonly defined....give it a go.

It's Paul's. he does not say a thing in the world about predestination unto damnation.

 

[Billy Evmur]

No, that makes no sense. Irresistible grace may save one or none. How can you ever even know if you are chosen? You can't. You can only hope you are.

When we are entering into the kingdom we see "whom-so-ever will ..." but when we are entered we look back and see " chosen in Christ before the world was founded ..."

 

[Billy Evmur]

So you won the heavenly lottery? What about the person who doesn't win, because he was destined for hell instead? You have no compassion for that poor guy?

You do not know who will be hell, nor do I. Nobody is predestined either to sin or be damned. There is only one Judge.

What about YOUR lottery ? my doctrine is that God will judge every man with perfect fairness. Your doctrine is unless a man hears the gospel and responds to it and decides "of their own freewill" to receive Christ as Lord they must be damned. According to this BILLIONS have already been damned, bad luck for them they never heard the gospel.

Predestination is not unto salvation per se, it is predestination to be conformed to the image of the Son of God, chosen [elect] to be a people for the praise of God's glorious grace. Of course we must be saved for that, but it does not exclude anybody from being saved.

Predestined to be the church, a city set upon the hill .... that men may find the way to shelter, help in time of need, salvation.

... what a glorious calling.

 

[Marymog]

He predestined that those who receive Christ should be set free .. are YOU free?

I am free of the un-biblical predestination theory

 

[Billy Evmur]

I am free of the un-biblical predestination theory

then study the biblical predestination doctrine

 

[Eternally Grateful]

then study the biblical predestination doctrine

Gotta love in when people claim that predestination is unbiblical. When the bible states predestination.

It is how we interpret what it means we need to determine. Not the word itself

 

[Marymog]

then study the biblical predestination doctrine

I am predestined not to.

 

[Marymog]

Gotta love in when people claim that predestination is unbiblical. When the bible states predestination.

It is how we interpret what it means we need to determine. Not the word itself

It is unbiblical in the way it was presented in the OP. Predestination is spoken of in the Bible. However the way it was presented in the OP is unbiblical!!

How do you interpret or what were you taught on what the Bible has to say about predestination?

Curious Mary

 

[Renniks]

You do not know who will be hell, nor do I. Nobody is predestined either to sin or be damned. There is only one Judge.

What about YOUR lottery ? my doctrine is that God will judge every man with perfect fairness. Your doctrine is unless a man hears the gospel and responds to it and decides "of their own freewill" to receive Christ as Lord they must be damned. According to this BILLIONS have already been damned, bad luck for them they never heard the gospel.

Predestination is not unto salvation per se, it is predestination to be conformed to the image of the Son of God, chosen [elect] to be a people for the praise of God's glorious grace. Of course we must be saved for that, but it does not exclude anybody from being saved.

Predestined to be the church, a city set upon the hill .... that men may find the way to shelter, help in time of need, salvation.

... what a glorious calling.

Well, now I'm totally confused about what you actually believe. Because first, you say there's no free will and now you say we aren't predestined to salvation or damnation. You seem to be wanting to have your cake and eat it too.
If we are not predestined to one or the other, then we must have freedom to choose one or the other.
Many people were saved before Jesus ever came by believing the promise, BTW.

 

[Renniks]

When we are entering into the kingdom we see "whom-so-ever will ..." but when we are entered we look back and see " chosen in Christ before the world was founded ..."

Oh, so you are a compatibilist. Why didn't you just say so? You just shrug and say two opposites are both true. Yeah, I tried that. It didn't work for me.
"We" are chosen in Christ before the world was founded. "We" being whosoever will believe. Individuals are not chosen. So, how simple it really is?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It is unbiblical in the way it was presented in the OP. Predestination is spoken of in the Bible. However the way it was presented in the OP is unbiblical!!

How do you interpret or what were you taught on what the Bible has to say about predestination?

Curious Mary

The op is about free will not predestination. So not sure what your upset about

I believe what the bible says. We are predestined to be conformed to his image. we are predestined to be adopted as a son. And that we have received an inheritance, having been predestined.. Do you believe this?

 

[Grailhunter]

It's Paul's. he does not say a thing in the world about predestination unto damnation.

You do know that you are sitting in a thread entitled "Human freewill the devil's greatest trick.
So are you saying you disagree with that?
That God only uses predestination to get people to Heaven?
The Bible says the word predestination but does not give a description of it....so that means Paul did not say a whole lot about it.
So that is one of the reasons that we are here discussing this, because predestination has such a small impact that it is not well defined in the Bible. So vague that people have full rein to twist its meaning and impact.
You need to be honest and go that extra mile and tell us what it means to you.

 

[Marymog]

The op is about free will not predestination. So not sure what your upset about

I believe what the bible says. We are predestined to be conformed to his image. we are predestined to be adopted as a son. And that we have received an inheritance, having been predestined.. Do you believe this?

If all are predestined to be adopted as a son and receive an inheritance then we loose free will!! Do you believe this?

 

[Renniks]

The op is about free will not predestination. So not sure what your upset about

I believe what the bible says. We are predestined to be conformed to his image. we are predestined to be adopted as a son. And that we have received an inheritance, having been predestined.. Do you believe this?

Does being predestined to inherit these blessings as believers mean we can't choose to become unbelievers and lose our inheritance? Because the Bible has plenty of warning about that also.