Human Freewill the devil's greatest trick

[Eternally Grateful]

Does being predestined to inherit these blessings as believers mean we can't choose to become unbelievers and lose our inheritance? Because the Bible has plenty of warning about that also.

1 we have to chose to receive it. But as many as received him to THEM he gave the right

2 a true child of gif would never willfully chose to tell God he changed his mind and no longer believes it wants his salvation. That would be the sign of someone who Never were a part if us as John said.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If all are predestined to be adopted as a son and receive an inheritance then we loose free will!! Do you believe this?

Nope that is not what it means

there is no if. I quoted parts of the Bible literally what it said. Predestination is real. Just not the way some interpret it

 

[Renniks]

1 we have to chose to receive it. But as many as received him to THEM he gave the right

2 a true child of gif would never willfully chose to tell God he changed his mind and no longer believes it wants his salvation. That would be the sign of someone who Never were a part if us as John said.

Then all verses about falling away are cut from your Bible?

 

[Whetstone]

What you are saying in the above statement, is that disobedience to God is not a sin. You're saying that sin only arose AFTER disobedience occurred. I invite you to rethink that statement.

Why would you infer such a thing and make such a disingenuous remark as that? Adam and Eve had no sin to their account before they disobeyed God, and once they disobeyed God they were sinners.

All you are doing their Stump is confirming that Adam and Eve's disobedience was not caused by sin. If they had no sin before their disobedience then the disobedience must logically have been caused by something else. And again you're underpinning the fact that disobedience must not be an actual sin.

Either Adam and Eve sinned by disobeying God or they didn't.

If they didn't then disobedience is not a sin and thus the sin was gaining the knowledge of the Tree which God, for whatever reason, did not want them to have (despite him oddly putting the tree within their reach in the first place).

If they did sin by disobeying God then sin already existed before they ate of the Tree which has a lot of ramifications for religion.

One thing that has always puzzled me is why did God want to make us in his image yet not want us to enjoy the depth of knowledge that he enjoys and not enjoy the immortality that he enjoys? It seems more than a little protectionist.

 

[Whetstone]

God has included a capacity for individuals to make choices which may be predictable but are not predetermined in the fatalistic sense of being fixed by Divine Decree.

What you state or suggest there is impossible. If something is predictable, by which we mean 100% certain, not any kind of random prediction of guess, then it is absolutely predetermined. There is no choice in something that is predetermined. If you 100% know what the lottery numbers next week will be then those numbers MUST be predetermined. There's no way out of that conundrum I'm afraid.

If something is not predetermined then no-one can actually know what the outcome will be. If you are a time traveller and are able to travel to the future and see an outcome, then in that moment that outcome has already occurred and is in fact the past not the future. God sitting outside of time can see that entire "video tape" from start to finish even though the perceptions and experiences of you and I are stuck in some part of that tape mid-way.

Again this kind of logical conundrum for me, can only mean that we have not rightly understood the Bible message and that the texts are not literal but are rather allegorical and conceal a different meaning.

 

[Marymog]

Nope that is not what it means

there is no if. I quoted parts of the Bible literally what it said. Predestination is real. Just not the way some interpret it

Well, I don't know what to say. You have me very confused.

Let me just be blunt so I can better understand what you are saying: Do you believe we have free will or not? How do you define predestination? No matter what I do here on earth I am destined for heaven or hell???

I look forward to the clarification so I won't be so confused as to what you are saying.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, I don't know what to say. You have me very confused.

Let me just be blunt so I can better understand what you are saying: Do you believe we have free will or not? How do you define predestination? No matter what I do here on earth I am destined for heaven or hell???

I look forward to the clarification so I won't be so confused as to what you are saying.

Let me be BLUNT

You have a reading comprehension issue, Let me show you,

You said If all are predestined to be adopted as a son and receive an inheritance then we loose free will!! Do you believe this?

I replied NO (i do not believe this) and that the fact if those things are true we lose free will as not being true (it does not say this)

See how simple discernment and listening would help?

You think I said one thing, which I did not, And even after I explain myself you still do not get it.

1. If you have been reading my post. You would understand I believe in free will. and we would not be having this discussion
2. I told you what predestination was by quoting scripture And asked if you agreed.

Here let me rewrite what I said, and this time put it in quotes of scripture


I first said we were predestined to be conformed to his image

Romans 8:29
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son

I then said we were predestined to be sons of God

Ephesians 1:5
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

And lastly I said we have received an inheritance, being predestined

Ephesians 1:11
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

I then asked if you believed this too.

again I ask, do you?

 

[Marymog]

Let me be BLUNT

You have a reading comprehension issue, Let me show you,

You said If all are predestined to be adopted as a son and receive an inheritance then we loose free will!! Do you believe this?

I replied NO (i do not believe this) and that the fact if those things are true we lose free will as not being true (it does not say this)

See how simple discernment and listening would help?

You think I said one thing, which I did not, And even after I explain myself you still do not get it.

1. If you have been reading my post. You would understand I believe in free will. and we would not be having this discussion
2. I told you what predestination was by quoting scripture And asked if you agreed.

Here let me rewrite what I said, and this time put it in quotes of scripture


I first said we were predestined to be conformed to his image

Romans 8:29
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son

I then said we were predestined to be sons of God

Ephesians 1:5
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

And lastly I said we have received an inheritance, being predestined

Ephesians 1:11
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

I then asked if you believed this too.

again I ask, do you?

Well that is where the confusion is coming in for me since you said, "I believe what the bible says. We are predestined to be conformed to his image. we are predestined to be adopted as a son. And that we have received an inheritance, having been predestined.."

TO ME that statements means that you do not think we have free will since you seem to believe we are predestined since you said "We are predestined...."

I believe what Scripture says.

I don't believe it says we are predestined to go to heaven or hell!!

I hope that clarifies my thoughts.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well that is where the confusion is coming in for me since you said, "I believe what the bible says. We are predestined to be conformed to his image. we are predestined to be adopted as a son. And that we have received an inheritance, having been predestined.."

TO ME that statements means that you do not think we have free will since you seem to believe we are predestined since you said "We are predestined...."

I believe what Scripture says.

I don't believe it says we are predestined to go to heaven or hell!!

I hope that clarifies my thoughts.

I believe I see no one else, responding to,you, I think I am going to join them.

good day

 

[Stumpmaster]

All you are doing their Stump is confirming that Adam and Eve's disobedience was not caused by sin. If they had no sin before their disobedience then the disobedience must logically have been caused by something else. And again you're underpinning the fact that disobedience must not be an actual sin.

Your reasoning is illogical, like say 1+1=3. You're on ignore.

 

[Enoch111]

We are not free, we have no choice.

That is completely false. There is a huge difference between having the sin nature within and having no choice (as you claim). Indeed it is absurd to claim that people have no choice in the matter of choosing right from wrong, or choosing righteousness over evil deeds. Everyone has the ability to choose, everyone has a conscience, and everyone can believe the Gospel if they so choose.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the Law, these, having not the Law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my Gospel. (Rom 2:14-16).

"The Law" here is the Ten Commandments. According to Paul and according to Scripture the Ten Commandments are embedded within the conscience in that everyone knows right from wrong. And Gentiles (who are unsaved) "do by nature" what is right, as much as they do what is wrong. This does not make them righteous according to God's standard. But it does not make them continually evil and wicked either.

The Calvinistic idea of Total Depravity is simply another man-made doctrine to justify their false gospel. Every sinner has the ability to hear the Gospel and obey the Gospel. If they choose to ignore the Gospel, it is still their choice.

 

[Billy Evmur]

You do know that you are sitting in a thread entitled "Human freewill the devil's greatest trick.
So are you saying you disagree with that?
That God only uses predestination to get people to Heaven?
The Bible says the word predestination but does not give a description of it....so that means Paul did not say a whole lot about it.
So that is one of the reasons that we are here discussing this, because predestination has such a small impact that it is not well defined in the Bible. So vague that people have full rein to twist its meaning and impact.
You need to be honest and go that extra mile and tell us what it means to you.

Paul gives a wealth of information about predestination and election [as is his wont] he compacts it it all into one or two sentences.

Our predestination and election calling [says he] is to be conformed to the image of God's dear Son WOW what a weight of doctrine is packed in there, what a wealth of blessing.
Again he says in Ephesians we were chosen in Christ before the world began to be a people for the praise of His glorious grace WOW.

It is what the whole christian life is all about ... becoming like Jesus and praising Him.

THAT'S what Paul teaches about predestination and election. OF COURSE we must be saved for that. But it does not preclude anybody else from being saved.

And yes I know what thread I am on ... it is my thread.

 

[Billy Evmur]

That is completely false. There is a huge difference between having the sin nature within and having no choice (as you claim). Indeed it is absurd to claim that people have no choice in the matter of choosing right from wrong, or choosing righteousness over evil deeds. Everyone has the ability to choose, everyone has a conscience, and everyone can believe the Gospel if they so choose.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the Law, these, having not the Law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my Gospel. (Rom 2:14-16).

"The Law" here is the Ten Commandments. According to Paul and according to Scripture the Ten Commandments are embedded within the conscience in that everyone knows right from wrong. And Gentiles (who are unsaved) "do by nature" what is right, as much as they do what is wrong. This does not make them righteous according to God's standard. But it does not make them continually evil and wicked either.

The Calvinistic idea of Total Depravity is simply another man-made doctrine to justify their false gospel. Every sinner has the ability to hear the Gospel and obey the Gospel. If they choose to ignore the Gospel, it is still their choice.

 

[Billy Evmur]

You'll have to ask the Calvinists about their doctrine of Total depravity. You have a sin nature, you were born with a sin nature, all the "freewill" in the world can't change it.

... and you will die.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Oh, so you are a compatibilist. Why didn't you just say so? You just shrug and say two opposites are both true. Yeah, I tried that. It didn't work for me.
"We" are chosen in Christ before the world was founded. "We" being whosoever will believe. Individuals are not chosen. So, how simple it really is?

So now you are saying "whom God did NOT know He also predestined and chose..."

How would it be possible to preplan somebody's life who God doesn't know.?

...as if God wouldn't know

 

[Billy Evmur]

Well, now I'm totally confused about what you actually believe. Because first, you say there's no free will and now you say we aren't predestined to salvation or damnation. You seem to be wanting to have your cake and eat it too.
If we are not predestined to one or the other, then we must have freedom to choose one or the other.
Many people were saved before Jesus ever came by believing the promise, BTW.

It is not difficult at all

being predestined and chosen to be conformed to the image of Christ must absolutely involve being saved ... but it doesn't exclude anybody from being saved.

Do sheeps choose to be sheeps or goats choose to be goats?

 

[Heart2Soul]

You'll have to ask the Calvinists about their doctrine of Total depravity. You have a sin nature, you were born with a sin nature, all the "freewill" in the world can't change it.

... and you will die.

Hello, I haven't said much on this thread but I do want to reply to this post..
IMHO....you are intertwining flesh with soul...soul with spirit.
Only the flesh is corrupt and is born into sin.
Our spirit is from God the Father.
Our soul is our carnal mind which must be renewed when we become saved.
When we are saved we are born again of His spirit.
Our mind is the battlefield in which Satan attacks us with wrong thinking...it is why Jesus said to put our thoughts in captivity and cast them down when they are exalted above the Word of God.
Our carnal mind is enmity against God....we must learn to be spiritually minded.
God exists outside of time. To Him past, present and future is before His presence continously and simultaneously.
This is why He is Omnipotent and Omniscient and Omnipresent....He has seen the beginning and end of all things created by Him.
Scripture teaches us that our names were written in the book of life from the foundation of creation.
Revelation 13 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
⁷ And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
⁸ And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So back to being born a sinner (our flesh) having a sin nature...our freewill can change the nature of how we live.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Hello, I haven't said much on this thread but I do want to reply to this post..
IMHO....you are intertwining flesh with soul...soul with spirit.
Only the flesh is corrupt and is born into sin.
Our spirit is from God the Father.
Our soul is our carnal mind which must be renewed when we become saved.
When we are saved we are born again of His spirit.
Our mind is the battlefield in which Satan attacks us with wrong thinking...it is why Jesus said to put our thoughts in captivity and cast them down when they are exalted above the Word of God.
Our carnal mind is enmity against God....we must learn to be spiritually minded.
God exists outside of time. To Him past, present and future is before His presence continously and simultaneously.
This is why He is Omnipotent and Omniscient and Omnipresent....He has seen the beginning and end of all things created by Him.
Scripture teaches us that our names were written in the book of life from the foundation of creation.
Revelation 13 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
⁷ And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
⁸ And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So back to being born a sinner (our flesh) having a sin nature...our freewill can change the nature of how we live.

Man is spirit, soul and flesh ... but our spirit is dead because of sin ... the human child actually is born dead and must be made to live ... when we are saved our spirit is made ALIVE, we are born again. what a wonder salvation is.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Man is spirit, soul and flesh ... but our spirit is dead because of sin ... the human child actually is born dead and must be made to live ... when we are saved our spirit is made ALIVE, we are born again. what a wonder salvation is.

Our spirit is not dead...it is eternal. Children and babies die every day and they immediately (that is.their spirit) returns back to the Father who gave it.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Our spirit is not dead...it is eternal. Children and babies die every day and they immediately (that is.their spirit) returns back to the Father who gave it.

dead in trespasses and sin