I abandoned my faith
- Thread starter KUWN
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
Didn't your mother ever warn you about getting a reputation?
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
The real issue was all my friends Moms.Didn't your mother ever warn you about getting a reputation?
"If you play with that boy you'll end up in trouble."
[
KUWN, you make powerful argument. Practically, Christianity is the only religion where the founder offered proof. Jesus himself said he healed to show he can forgive sin. The healing is the proof of his divinity. No faith needed. And, given that he was divine, it is rational faith that he could forgive sin.
Joseph Smith didn't perform miracles. Mohammad didn't perform miracles. Even if they had claimed to, they weren't surrounded by hostile witnesses who challenged everything but didn't deny the miracles. No Jews wrote in the first century that Jesus didn't do those things. No Jews or Romans pointed to the body after the alleged resurrection.
However, I am no longer a Christian. I can no longer be a part of a something where practically all the followers are unholy, unrighteous, and unintelligent. Look at the replies by Christians to your post -- unintelligent. The first reply demanded a verse that was already given and already known by anyone who actually studied the Gospels. Others thought you meant you weren't Christian. Another argued against you, even with the lowest quality of Christian argument (verse spamming), without demonstrating any understanding of your argument.
I can no longer identify with people who generally refuse to understand simple mathematics when I would prefer to discuss the boundaries of calculous. I can no longer identify with people who think they're a people of God yet live like heathens. I can no longer identify with people who think works and faith are two different things (modern Evangelicals even think the two are mutually exclusive). For me to come back to the Church, God is going to have to clean house of all these horrible people who say they follow Jesus.
Yes, you make a powerful argument. But, if we talked about doctrine, I expect I'd find out that you really oppose many clear teachings of the Bible, such as infant baptism. Or, you'd trade sound biblical interpretation for the teachings of your magisterium. Regression to the mean. Christians are fine to associate with until they start talking about religion and then their corruption is exposed.
If God revealed himself through religion, it would be Christianity. You've given a reason why Christianity overcomes other religions when people free to believe and practice whatever they want. But, the current generation of Christians is Hell-bent on destroying Christianity.
I have/had many proofs of Christianity, and God in general. I could leave any intelligent Atheist silent with a proof that God created the universe because God is inevitable. But, stumping people with an argument doesn't change their minds, just like your argument changed no ones mind. It's icing for the ones who already believe (if they understand you).
For me, the final straw was when my long-time church went one way (modern/consumer-oriented, also hired a crypto-dispy pastor) and I went the other way (more biblical) and could no longer abide my church. I looked around at a hundred of the nearest churches and everyone of them was horrible. So, I stopped going and eventually my faith vanished. For a short while, I wanted to get my faith back, but I realized the forces that destroyed by faith would prevent that. I once was a true believer who could never imagine losing my faith. Now, I don't want to believe in a God who doesn't clean house. It wasn't any argument by Atheists, it was Christians themselves that do the proverbial Devil's work.
Look at Christ, not the people? Naive!
Joseph Smith didn't perform miracles. Mohammad didn't perform miracles. Even if they had claimed to, they weren't surrounded by hostile witnesses who challenged everything but didn't deny the miracles. No Jews wrote in the first century that Jesus didn't do those things. No Jews or Romans pointed to the body after the alleged resurrection.
However, I am no longer a Christian. I can no longer be a part of a something where practically all the followers are unholy, unrighteous, and unintelligent. Look at the replies by Christians to your post -- unintelligent. The first reply demanded a verse that was already given and already known by anyone who actually studied the Gospels. Others thought you meant you weren't Christian. Another argued against you, even with the lowest quality of Christian argument (verse spamming), without demonstrating any understanding of your argument.
I can no longer identify with people who generally refuse to understand simple mathematics when I would prefer to discuss the boundaries of calculous. I can no longer identify with people who think they're a people of God yet live like heathens. I can no longer identify with people who think works and faith are two different things (modern Evangelicals even think the two are mutually exclusive). For me to come back to the Church, God is going to have to clean house of all these horrible people who say they follow Jesus.
Yes, you make a powerful argument. But, if we talked about doctrine, I expect I'd find out that you really oppose many clear teachings of the Bible, such as infant baptism. Or, you'd trade sound biblical interpretation for the teachings of your magisterium. Regression to the mean. Christians are fine to associate with until they start talking about religion and then their corruption is exposed.
If God revealed himself through religion, it would be Christianity. You've given a reason why Christianity overcomes other religions when people free to believe and practice whatever they want. But, the current generation of Christians is Hell-bent on destroying Christianity.
I have/had many proofs of Christianity, and God in general. I could leave any intelligent Atheist silent with a proof that God created the universe because God is inevitable. But, stumping people with an argument doesn't change their minds, just like your argument changed no ones mind. It's icing for the ones who already believe (if they understand you).
For me, the final straw was when my long-time church went one way (modern/consumer-oriented, also hired a crypto-dispy pastor) and I went the other way (more biblical) and could no longer abide my church. I looked around at a hundred of the nearest churches and everyone of them was horrible. So, I stopped going and eventually my faith vanished. For a short while, I wanted to get my faith back, but I realized the forces that destroyed by faith would prevent that. I once was a true believer who could never imagine losing my faith. Now, I don't want to believe in a God who doesn't clean house. It wasn't any argument by Atheists, it was Christians themselves that do the proverbial Devil's work.
Look at Christ, not the people? Naive!
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
@Finis Fidei
Welcome to the forum.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The parody below illustrates how the church
and Christians can stand in the way of someone
having a relationship with Jesus.
What is the solution?
--- PARODY --- (the parenthetical statements represent what they are thinking) - LOL
Christian: Do you know Jesus? (a very good question)
Prospect: I've heard of him. (I need to get away fast)
Christian: But do you know him personally? (another good question)
Prospect: I've heard of that too. (I don't like where this is going)
Christian: You need to invite him into your life. (smooth)
Prospect: Why would I want to do that? (shields up, battle mode)
Christian: Because of your sin. (Careful. get ready to sink the hook)
Prospect: My sin? (run feet, run)
Christian: Yes. We are all born sinners in need of forgiveness. (steady...)
Prospect: I've heard of that too. (feet, why aren't you running?)
Christian: Jesus died to pay for our sin. (keep going)
Prospect: Okay, hang on... do you want me to join a church? (regaining control)
Christian: Well, that's part of it. But let's not jump ahead... (careful...)
Prospect: If it involves joining a church, I am not interested. (there, I said it)
Christian: Why would that be a problem? (this is going down hill fast)
Prospect: I don't want to join a church, or be a "Christian".
Christian: So, you are rejecting Christ? (gotcha)
Prospect: No. I am rejecting Christianity. (Yes, I will escape this encounter)
Christian: But... rejecting Christianity is the same as rejecting Christ. (???)
Prospect: I think Gandhi got it right. (now you are toast)
Christian: Say what? (Houston, we have a problem)
Prospect: Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. ..." (gotcha)
Christian: Well, you should focus on Jesus, not on Christians. (Mayday, Mayday...)
Prospect: Christianity obviously doesn't work. (winning this argument)
Christian: Well, it can... (going down fast)
Prospect: Sorry, I'm not interested. (ha, made short work of this)
Christian: There are consequences for rejecting Christ. (last ditch effort)
Prospect: Like going to hell? (I'm so done with this)
Christian: Well, yes... (gulp)
Prospect: I'm so done with this. Goodbye. (and good riddance)
Christian: (sigh)
[
Welcome to the forum.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The parody below illustrates how the church
and Christians can stand in the way of someone
having a relationship with Jesus.
What is the solution?
--- PARODY --- (the parenthetical statements represent what they are thinking) - LOL
Christian: Do you know Jesus? (a very good question)
Prospect: I've heard of him. (I need to get away fast)
Christian: But do you know him personally? (another good question)
Prospect: I've heard of that too. (I don't like where this is going)
Christian: You need to invite him into your life. (smooth)
Prospect: Why would I want to do that? (shields up, battle mode)
Christian: Because of your sin. (Careful. get ready to sink the hook)
Prospect: My sin? (run feet, run)
Christian: Yes. We are all born sinners in need of forgiveness. (steady...)
Prospect: I've heard of that too. (feet, why aren't you running?)
Christian: Jesus died to pay for our sin. (keep going)
Prospect: Okay, hang on... do you want me to join a church? (regaining control)
Christian: Well, that's part of it. But let's not jump ahead... (careful...)
Prospect: If it involves joining a church, I am not interested. (there, I said it)
Christian: Why would that be a problem? (this is going down hill fast)
Prospect: I don't want to join a church, or be a "Christian".
Christian: So, you are rejecting Christ? (gotcha)
Prospect: No. I am rejecting Christianity. (Yes, I will escape this encounter)
Christian: But... rejecting Christianity is the same as rejecting Christ. (???)
Prospect: I think Gandhi got it right. (now you are toast)
Christian: Say what? (Houston, we have a problem)
Prospect: Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. ..." (gotcha)
Christian: Well, you should focus on Jesus, not on Christians. (Mayday, Mayday...)
Prospect: Christianity obviously doesn't work. (winning this argument)
Christian: Well, it can... (going down fast)
Prospect: Sorry, I'm not interested. (ha, made short work of this)
Christian: There are consequences for rejecting Christ. (last ditch effort)
Prospect: Like going to hell? (I'm so done with this)
Christian: Well, yes... (gulp)
Prospect: I'm so done with this. Goodbye. (and good riddance)
Christian: (sigh)
[
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Welcome to the forum.
The thing is, that God loves stupid people. I know this because He made so many of them! ow I'm not implying that I am intelligent, lol. The more I learn the less I feel I know.
The good thing is that the price was paid so we have the ability to step right into the Lord, even without understanding. The first thing we do is pick up the Lord's word and read it. This dumps the Holy Spirit on us whether we ask for it or not. We need to grow in understanding but need no understanding to be led to Jesus through the Holy Spirit. Because the Lord wants us to have faith in Him rather than understanding. I notice that, in a way, we are sort of like...the untrained Donkey which had never known a burden being ridden by Jesus to victory!
Just have faith. Not little faith, but great faith! He has never let me down when I said, ok Lord, it's in your hands now! That is an act of faith, walking in faith and therein is our responsibility and the same time, we are instructed to be like the Bereans and study His word!
All of my life that I can remember I have been taught to war and kill. When I came around in a serious way to the Lord Jesus, the first thing He started teaching me is all about love! Love in a world of hate, geez. Love your nrighbor, love your enemies, pray for the enemy! The exact opposite of what I was taught. I believe the next step is unification of the body.
Whoops, that's a tall order nowadays! But it is on the agenda and we might be even falling a ittle behind? (as a people). How in the world do you unify with other Christians who delight in arguing about doctrine and disparaging their fellow Brothers & Sisters?
Easy. You look to the unseen. We all on on that narrow path, perhaps it a gold bricked path? So in a way, we're on the yellow brick road! Some Brothers & Sisters are ahead of us on this road and some are behind us, as younger Christians. So we should take that into account when speaking with other Christians and in that I think lies the path of unification? Dont (anyone) take this the wrong way, but, who cares about doctrine when one is looking to the unseen, which is our Holy Spirit? So many of us disagree on certain aspects of doctrine but so what? Rising above petty differences (and places upon the yellow brick road) can we be and still be unified? It is not the doctrine that brings life anyway, the Spirit is life, true life. So let us all encourage one another in Christ regardless of doctrine, that we all glory in His presence once we all reach the emerald city! (New Jerusalem!) ??
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Bruce-Leiter
Active Member
I invite you to watch our pastors' sermons online at chapel-pointe.org and see thoroughly-biblical preaching and application of the Word of God. I would say that other people who profess Jesus have their responsibility before God and will answer to him, while you have yours. It's between you and God what you do about church, but God has inspired the writer to the Hebrews with the command to avoid forsaking assembling with other Christians (10:25), even if it's online!
I'm not too worried about an individual who awkwardly shares his faith, as much as I'm worried about the institution behind that individual.
The incredible shrinking church shows modern church is an absolute failure at bringing someone a... what... relationship with Jesus?
1) When an unholy people tell others about Jesus, they might as well be cursing God. Christians, especially Evangelicals, don't have the respect of others. Without respect, you're not going to have much success.
2) Sending out people to share Jesus who are unequipped is also not the path to success. They're not ready to give a defense when asked.
3) I believe that the mantra "tell people about Jesus" has little to do with brining people to Christ, but with bringing tithe-contributing bodies to the church building. (Where's the "repent" mantra?) As a bonus, the pastor get to publicly display his virtue by instructing his followers to go out and tell people about Jesus.
4) Even if you tell people about Jesus and they're receptive, the only thing left is to take them to your church where they'll be driven back to what they were before. I don't have any use for "relationship" talk or nonsensical "the church age is about to end" eschatology. I searched both the KJV and ESV and the word "relationship" isn't in neither. I also observed that there's nothing in the Bible to suggest the church age is about to end. Why do Christians claim to believe the Bible and then they proceed to teach things not biblical? You're not gaining respect or credibility, and you're not equipping the saints. (For the love of God, why do Christians love to make doctrines out of things foreign to the Bible, and then swear to their graves that it's biblical?)
5) Speaking of things foreign to the Bible, maybe common Christians shouldn't be telling people about Jesus? Jesus' instruction to make disciples of all nations was given specifically to the Eleven disciples. There were many followers, but Jesus didn't say this to them. Maybe recruitment should be left to church leaders?
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Bruce-Leiter
Active Member
With all due respect, you do a lot of generalizing about Evangelical Christians' teachings and actions. I've been a member of and preacher in several Evangelical churches. They all have their faults, of course, but God has promised to bring good out of their weaknesses. I am a seed-scatterer; I don't expect immediate results of people accepting Jesus, but God has overcome my human weaknesses to save some of them (book: What God Has Done: My True, Dramatic God-Biography--Amazon).
The question I have is, How has the Evangelical church hurt you personally? I'm just curious why you have generalized so much about them, when in my long experience (66 of my 82 years), such generalizations are unfair to many well-meaning Christians in those churches.
All God calls all Christians to do is witness to what God has done in our lives; he has given a few of us the spiritual gift of evangelism.
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
OK, so you took the new man off.... and put the old man back on which is taking a U turn from walking with the Lord and getting back on the highway to hell.
Congrats! You have allowed satan to choke God's Word out of you and now you bear no fruit.
Jesus tells us in John 15 that those who do not abide in Him bearing fruit would be cut off and thrown in to the fire.
Do you understand that YOU are setting yourself up to go to hell for eternity???
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
All the false doctrine they put out are causing people to think they are saved when they actually are not
Behold
Well-Known Member
I get sick and tired of people like you who don't read the full post and yet have the continental gall to reply to my post. Your theology is way off in the area of Soteriology. Why don't you do one of two things. Either read my post in full, or give up your membership in this forum. People like you give Christians a bad name. Stop being so lazy and read my post for the first time in full.
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
And some fall away after getting saved and end up in hell.
You said you abandoned your faith right?
Well, now you are back on the highway to hell homie! Congrats if this was your desire because you are there!
You're not a Christian anymore... so why do you care???
With all due respect, what you call generalizing is warranted. What have I said do you think is unfair?
A seed scatterer? Hmmm.
I believe I have already answered the question about personal hurt. I will add that I don't think anyone leaves the Church because they've been personally hurt. If someone claims to have left because of personally being hurt, it's a tiny reason, just the last straw.
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