"I don't like even being around them"

[Justadude]

Yet another "look at what is wrong with Christians thread". Not meaning to offend, but isn't it?

I can understand how you see it that way, and maybe even get defensive. But that's not really my intent here. Like I said in the OP, Ezra immediately cut off talking with me once he realized I wasn't a Christian, and it reminded me of what that person said at the camping trip. So I thought I'd share and see what others thought.

So I'm kind of just thinking out loud here. But you know, you may be right too. Maybe I shouldn't share such thoughts, especially if doing so offends folks.

 

[bbyrd009]

Not being funny but that could apply to many on this forum !
It takes two to create an argument - and as he is often the only agnostic on the threads.........
Also many arguments erupt here, on threads he is not a part of .........so perhaps others need to evaluate their own motives for interactions ......that’s a generalisation, not having a dig at you personally Willie.
Why does it matter.....I have seen some pretty awful responses to Justadude - quite frankly If that is how Christians witness to others it’s no wonder the church is floundering !!

word

 

[bbyrd009]

Yet another "look at what is wrong with Christians thread". Not meaning to offend, but isn't it?

hey well judge not, lest you be judged right

 

[bbyrd009]

I can understand how you see it that way, and maybe even get defensive. But that's not really my intent here. Like I said in the OP, Ezra immediately cut off talking with me once he realized I wasn't a Christian, and it reminded me of what that person said at the camping trip. So I thought I'd share and see what others thought.

So I'm kind of just thinking out loud here. But you know, you may be right too. Maybe I shouldn't share such thoughts, especially if doing so offends folks.

ha well imo what (pseudo)Ezra has realized you could put in an old sock with holes in it, and not worry about anything falling out, so i dunno much about not offending poseurs i guess, and pEzra is not the arbiter of the definition of "Christian" either. Now if he were to come back and confess i guess id owe him one, but im not holding my breath there either tbh

From the time of John the Baptizer until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful people have been seizing it i guess

 

[Pearl]

I think people who are non-Christians will find lots varying of reasons not to accept Christianity for themselves. My son who brought up in our Christian home can't believe in the account of creation so that's one of the reasons he uses. Also just now he says he can't believe in a God who would allow Covid-19. I think other people are just ashamed of their way of life and think they 'aren't good enough' and yet others are unwilling for the changes that may happen in their lives.

And it doesn't surprise me that some of them, seeing the state of the church and hearing only negative things about Christians, and in some cases being badly treated and/or judged by them don't want to be a part of it.

 

[marks]

I can understand how you see it that way, and maybe even get defensive. But that's not really my intent here. Like I said in the OP, Ezra immediately cut off talking with me once he realized I wasn't a Christian, and it reminded me of what that person said at the camping trip. So I thought I'd share and see what others thought.

So I'm kind of just thinking out loud here. But you know, you may be right too. Maybe I shouldn't share such thoughts, especially if doing so offends folks.

Maybe I've not seen enough to really say, but it seems a common theme for you.

Generally I think keeping one's grievances between the affected parties to be best. I guess I'm just thinking out loud too.



I think some thoughts are "inside thoughts", like the lady at the camp . . . not necessary to blurt out.

 

[Justadude]

I think people who are non-Christians will find lots varying of reasons not to accept Christianity for themselves. My son who brought up in our Christian home can't believe in the account of creation so that's one of the reasons he uses. Also just now he says he can't believe in a God who would allow Covid-19. I think other people are just ashamed of their way of life and think they 'aren't good enough' and yet others are unwilling for the changes that may happen in their lives.

And it doesn't surprise me that some of them, seeing the state of the church and hearing only negative things about Christians, and in some cases being badly treated and/or judged by them don't want to be a part of it.

I have many non-Christian friends as well and what you describe is pretty accurate. There are indeed lots of reasons to not believe Christianity. The most common reason I hear from friends is similar to mine....it just doesn't make sense.

 

[Justadude]

Maybe I've not seen enough to really say, but it seems a common theme for you.

Yeah, you're right. I suppose the alternative would be for me to start threads about how wonderful and awesome Christians and Christianity are?

Generally I think keeping one's grievances between the affected parties to be best. I guess I'm just thinking out loud too.



I think some thoughts are "inside thoughts", like the lady at the camp . . . not necessary to blurt out.

First, Ezra wasn't the only one here who expressed that view. But there's always the option that if my posts bother someone, they can just not read them.

 

[bbyrd009]

feels so much better to get offended tho i guess

 

[marks]

Yeah, you're right. I suppose the alternative would be for me to start threads about how wonderful and awesome Christians and Christianity are?

What else interests you?

Are you familiar with NLP? Neuro Linguistic Programing? I keep bringing that up, but no one seems to know what it is. That's fun topic!

For instance, why we choose our screen names? We're all trying to express something by the choice of the words we use to represent ourselves.

?

 

[Justadude]

What else interests you?

All sorts of things. Sports, science, current events, music....

Are you familiar with NLP? Neuro Linguistic Programing? I keep bringing that up, but no one seems to know what it is. That's fun topic!

Can't say I've ever heard of it.

For instance, why we choose our screen names? We're all trying to express something by the choice of the words we use to represent ourselves.

Sounds rather Freudian.

 

[Candidus]

Here's a thought.....rather than use a dictionary to define a person, you could just ask them what they think and believe.

Here's a thought, don't jump into a conversation that was not directed to you!

 

[marks]

All sorts of things. Sports, science, current events, music....


Can't say I've ever heard of it.


Sounds rather Freudian.

The idea behind neurolinguistic programing is that the words we use, and are used with us, are what form the thoughts in our minds, and those thoughts are influenced by our word choices.

A simple example is, "Don't forget the dry cleaning", you end up associating "forget" and "dry cleaning", and then don't pick it up. "Remember the dry cleaning" according to NLP is more likely to help you to remember.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

@Justadude

amadeus said: ↑
For people living in a world with often some science learned in school the logic against a circular argument may difficult for them to refute. Many will not try. Some of them really do not understand where they are, simply being well weather friend kind Christians, which to me means not really very much like Jesus at all.

Justadude said:
It's very astute of you to mention science, since that's what I do. I've always been inclined towards empirical thinking, and I'm convinced it's the main reason I'm not religious.

I understand a bit about the 'scientific method' and know that it does not work with regard to God because He really does exist outside their parameters. [No I cannot prove that to you. God has proven it to me.] He cannot be measured using the measuring tools of the science, which men use.

The best of scientists have to bend a bit to get started. They take measurements and make observations supposedly gathering facts, but in doing so they make certain presumptions before they even begin to test and try out any hypothesis. They presume that their natural perceptions [vision, hearing, touching, smelling and tasting] are real and accurate. Without those presumptions how far could they get?

What could they perceive without any of those five senses? Nothing at all! And if man's determined world [based on his perceptions] really is nothing at all, [only a fiction that appears to real to a very temporal set of perceptions] and only God and the things seen by the power of the Holy Spirit are the reality, then science has stumbled at its very beginning. I know that you and others, even among Christians, won't believe that. But, I do not expect you to... Only God calls people. And only God really increases people.

Amadeus said:
I won't try to convert you, but you do need to understand, but to the rational mind of man alone it is a circular argument. You do have to believe before you increase toward God. It is stated here:

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6

Justadude said:
To me, that reads as you saying that in order to be a Christian, I must embrace and employ irrational and circular thinking. My first reaction to that is....why? Isn't that a key aspect in scams and con-man schemes? Once they convince you to suspend critical thinking, you're ripe to be persuaded to just about anything, right?

No, that is not what I am saying. You have drawn that conclusion yourself. Don't lay it on me, even if other Christians have embraced it. I simply quoted the verses and indicated my own understanding of them. You're skeptical or in complete disbelief because it won't fit your way of thinking? No one can make you believe what you don't believe.

God can help a person who approaches Him in the right way, but my involvement in that for you... is limited, or non-existent.

The Father's call is what is required.

I cannot by arguing with you and "winning" a debate get you to join with me in my walk with God. If you listen to me and join, there was something already drawing you to which you yielded and then God used me. Jesus speaks of it here:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44

And here:

"For many are called, but few are chosen." Matt 22:14

I know that some, perhaps many, sincere believers do not understand this. I am also certain that many pastors and other Christian leader fail to understand this. That is, they disagree with me. I won't say they disagree with God, for I too do not have all of God's answers to every question.

According to what Solomon wrote they all think they are right even if they don't always or even are unable to live up to their own 'code of conduct'. Where many Christians stumble, as I believe it, is that they presume they are exceptions to that because of what Jesus did for them.

You say they're wrong, they say you're wrong. Since there's no objective way to tell who's right, someone like me just shrugs and moves on.

You still approach it with only a man's logic. In a measure so does each person.

Jesus was beyond that and at times so are believers when they are available and God makes use of their availability. You cannot understand that and in your limited point of view, your viewpoint within a fiction, you want to talk them out of their faith, but if the faith is real, what you suggest won't happen. You are limited by your limited belief. You cannot see, hear, smell, taste or feel it, therefore to you it is questionable or non-existent.

You are presuming that without what you name objective proof, it cannot be. Actually it can. It is simply that you do not have the means to perceive it. You doubt that I do? I cannot prove it to you. Only God can do that, but He has chosen to use another pathway, a pathway you are unwilling or unable to walk. It is the only Way. Death is elsewhere.

If you have ever heard these words spoke by Ghandi who never a Christian, you may have a better understanding of it all:
"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." by Mahatma Gandhi.

Justadude said:
A quote that grows more relevant each year, I'm afraid.

The point was/is that there is a reality in God and His Son that many bearing the label, Christian, miss. This does not give you more than you had.

You say more relevant, but I would ask, Relevant to what? To your temporal or even fictional existence?

 

[Willie T]

All sorts of things. Sports, science, current events, music....


Can't say I've ever heard of it.


Sounds rather Freudian.

It's about a 50 year old psychiatric theory. But, I kind of doubt either Bandler or Grinder would recognize the description of it given here. LOL

 

[marks]

It's about a 50 year old psychiatric theory. But, I kind of doubt either Bandler or Grinder would recognize the description of it given here. LOL

I said it was a simple example.

 

[MattMooradian]

When I was agnostic some atheists would say things like "no such thing as agnostic" or "its not an option"
or "its a dishonest position" or some would say "its the same thing, ur an atheist" and they would twist up definitions
Do u get that?

In my opinion, agnosticism is the most honest position one could take on the issue of God. After all, agnostics are being more truthful than the atheists or believers. In truth, believers do not know there is a god, they believe there is a god. Same with atheists; atheists do not know that god does not exist, they believe that god does not exist.

That makes me wonder what you think of the "ways" represented in the posts by some of the Christians here in this forum. I've seen racism, antisemitism, extreme homophobic bigotry, truly crazy conspiracy theories, and a whole bunch of other things that have surprised me. If my ways are "obnoxious", I have to wonder what you think about those things from your fellow Christians?

First off, in the short time I have been on this site, I have never seen you post anything that can be considered 'obnoxious'. I do hope you would tell me if I ever sound racist, homophobic, or antisemetic. Just because I believe LGBTQs are sinners does not mean I hate them. I am concerned with anyone who uses the term 'homophobe'. Homohaters I have met, but never a homophobe. Phobias, by definition involve very well-defined symptoms that I have never observed in the people referred to as 'homophobes' (this does not include George Costanza, who is a fictional character). It is my opinion that our culture misuses the 'phobic' label when applied to people who are opposed to LGBTQs. The Leftists do tend to change the narrative so as to make things appear different then they really are.

Additionally, crazy theories can be found in most groups of people. Flat earthers are not Christians; new-agers (crystal gazers, energy healers, astrologists, tarot readers, etc.) are generally science deniers, too. Ancient aliens, Kennedy assassination, Knights Templars, etc. etc. Humans have a tendency toward superstition, and this tendency may be genetic. Overgeneralizations are necessary for survival; making guesses when we have inadequate information is the typical way humans make decisions on a day to day basis. Waiting for more objective information to be collected will often result in death for a hunter-gatherer.

 

[quietthinker]

When someone tells me they are atheist, Jewish, or whatever, I say nobody's perfect. Then move on the conversation.

If you are married lforrest, do you hide your wife…..do you feel uncomfortable because others mightn't approve of her…..are you ashamed of her?

In like manner, does a person who knows Jesus hide his light?

Perhaps the majority view of knowing Jesus is about subscribing to a particular set of ideas about Jesus. Isn't it this class that in the day of final reckoning Jesus says to them 'I never knew you'?

 

[Waiting on him]

Hmm I never thought about that but now that i have I think its very likely for some people



If a Christian has an issue with u being agnostic I would bring up those Samaritan stories. That'll throw em off...

When I was agnostic some atheists would say things like "no such thing as agnostic" or "its not an option"
or "its a dishonest position" or some would say "its the same thing, ur an atheist" and they would twist up definitions
Do u get that?

I'm sure you guys know this word agnostic is defined as ignorant.

 

[quietthinker]

....so perhaps others need to evaluate their own motives for interactions .....

We all need to do this on an ongoing basis….
Are we trying to get folk to agree with us…..are we trying to change their minds to our way of seeing so our ego is flattered……do we want more contributors to the coffers of our associated organisation…..is overt/covert self aggrandisement sought or is our motive to introduce a lover who is equal to none letting the audience decide what to do with him.