"I don't like even being around them"

[Justadude]

"There is now all kinda condemnation in those who are in Christ" huh?
i think it is an inevitable part of being a Roman, and why we are told to "leave the camp" even, this holding to imaginary Absolute Truths instead of "beliefs," and all being tacitly required to wear the same uniform?

No coats of many colors can be allowed, see, bc that is how the truth is revealed, by many witnesses, and Christians need their witnesses to all be interpreting ezackly the same way, i guess like a get-our-story-straight kinda thing? maybe?

IOW, tribalism combined with a need for absolute certainty. I see that manifest itself quite a bit in some Christian circles. The Jehovah's Witnesses are a particularly good example.

 

[amadeus]

I've no idea. It was just an off-hand joke anyways.

Not a joke to me, but my position is different than yours, isn't it? Most people I have met bearing the label of Christian will deny the possibility of being perfect before the dirt is thrown over their faces. To me that calls God a liar. To you perhaps it raises just another question that makes no sense at all.

 

[Justadude]

Talk to me.
Have u always been agnostic?

In a way, I guess so. A more accurate way to put it would be that I've never been religious. Whether gods exist or not has never struck me as a meaningful question, since no one can really say what a "god" is in a useful way. Religion has always seemed like faith-based magical thinking to me, and I just don't work that way. So in all the years I was taken to church, I was mostly baffled by the whole thing.

 

[Justadude]

Agnostic means "one who does not know," one who is ignorant of what is true. I have always found that a person who applies the moniker to themselves, takes pride in the fact that they are an Ignoramus!

Though one can say that they are "unsure," if they argue passionately from that position they are really no longer "agnostic" but uncommitted "atheist's." Either God exists or He does not. Living and believing in a way that does not reflect that God exists, is unbelief, not some fanciful neutral "middle ground."

Here's a thought.....rather than use a dictionary to define a person, you could just ask them what they think and believe.

 

[Justadude]

"I don't like even being around them"

aw c'mon, Christians arent universally that terrible, are they?
You can do it for two hours a week, cantcha, i mean that's about all theyre ever out anyway?

LOL. I hope you understand that "I don't like even being around them" was what a Christian said about non-Christians.

 

[bbyrd009]

LOL. I hope you understand that "I don't like even being around them" was what a Christian said about non-Christians.

yeh, j/k
sort of

 

[Justadude]

Not a joke to me, but my position is different than yours, isn't it? Most people I have met bearing the label of Christian will deny the possibility of being perfect before the dirt is thrown over their faces. To me that calls God a liar. To you perhaps it raises just another question that makes no sense at all.

We were always taught that none are perfect except Christ. But it's not really a meaningful question to me.

 

[amadeus]

Certainly. It can be quite entertaining at times to see people who insist they have the truth arguing back and forth over a topic where there's really no objective way to tell who's right. My favorites are the Holy Spirit arguments, where two Christians both claim that the Spirit revealed something to them, even though they're mutually exclusive.

For a person who seriously doubts God existence.... or assuming He did exist, His interest in men, I could see the entertainment aspect. I see it myself, but with more of a sadness as when "Jesus wept" if you are able to understand that. I have an explanation with regard to the Holy Spirit question, but most people don't want to hear it unless they already agree with it. Kind of a circular thing, isn't it?

I guess that would depend on what is meant by "way of a man". If it refers to how we live our lives, then I suppose people who are self-loathing would be exceptions.

Every man has his ways. Often he tries to live according to those ways, but some will fail miserably for different reasons. They exist for unbelievers as well as for believers. With the believers, how much of a believer they are makes a difference. Perhaps in a different way this hold true for unbelievers as well.

It is like each person has his own code of conduct, usually not written, nor even purposely determined. Of course the second phrase of Solomon's verse is, as I see it, the most important. Because of you stated situation I purposely left it alone.

 

[amadeus]

We were always taught that none are perfect except Christ. But it's not really a meaningful question to me.

I was also taught that many years ago, but my position on it has been changed. People usually are taught or make their decision regarding perfection for God or in the scriptures based on what they or someone to whom they listen have determined perfection to be.

What I have found is different and is in the scripture, but people usually don't see it or skim over it because they already have their
definition of perfection established in their minds. They are no longer listening. They usually don't want to hear me describe it because if they were to even seriously consider what I had to say, they might have to do something they have not been doing that according to God [and/or the scriptures?] that perhaps they should be doing... It starts perhaps here:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Rom 12:1

No more of that. I just wanted you to realize that I am not standing on this where many are standing.

 

[Helen]

hmm, ive been monitoring for any of that, could you provide us a little support for the perspective? Bc "obnoxious" from him i am not finding at all wadr. Me, no prob lol

If yall wanna pretend you didnt see this i understand tho ok

I like him. But there again...I like you!

 

[Justadude]

For a person who seriously doubts God existence.... or assuming He did exist, His interest in men, I could see the entertainment aspect. I see it myself, but with more of a sadness as when "Jesus wept" if you are able to understand that. I have an explanation with regard to the Holy Spirit question, but most people don't want to hear it unless they already agree with it. Kind of a circular thing, isn't it?

I've seen a surprising amount of appeals to circular arguments since joining this forum, mostly in the form of "You have to believe first, then it'll make sense, then you'll be a believer".

Every man has his ways. Often he tries to live according to those ways, but some will fail miserably for different reasons. They exist for unbelievers as well as for believers. With the believers, how much of a believer they are makes a difference. Perhaps in a different way this hold true for unbelievers as well.

It is like each person has his own code of conduct, usually not written, nor even purposely determined. Of course the second phrase of Solomon's verse is, as I see it, the most important. Because of you stated situation I purposely left it alone.

I see. Then I guess the question was whether anyone believes the code of conduct they strive to live by isn't "right". To that I can only answer that I've never encountered such a person.

 

[Renniks]

I figure Christians behave one way when they're specifically evangelizing and another way when they're in places like this. When evangelizing they put on their best face because it's basically a sales pitch, right?

I have family members who are in the Amish and Mennonite denominations. I've seen how they act very nice and friendly to outsiders when those outsiders are there, but as soon as the outsiders leave they start talking behind their backs in extremely judgmental and condescending ways. And it's not just some of them who do that....it's very common in the Amish/Mennonite communities.

So I figure that since this is an online forum where we're all anonymous, what I'm getting here is more like what I see with my Amish relatives when the outsiders aren't around.

Well that's part of Amish culture. They used to just shun people, and maybe still do, but their judging of who is in and who is out is very much based on appearance. I saw the same thing among Weslyan Methodist. It's all about how you dress and act. It creates judgemental people. A woman who wore pants for example, was automatically a non Christian.

 

[Justadude]

I was also taught that many years ago, but my position on it has been changed. People usually are taught or make their decision regarding perfection for God or in the scriptures based on what they or someone to whom they listen have determined perfection to be.

What I have found is different and is in the scripture, but people usually don't see it or skim over it because they already have their
definition of perfection established in their minds. They are no longer listening. They usually don't want to hear me describe it because if they were to even seriously consider what I had to say, they might have to do something they have not been doing that according to God [and/or the scriptures?] that perhaps they should be doing... It starts perhaps here:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Rom 12:1

No more of that. I just wanted you to realize that I am not standing on this where many are standing.

I understand. Thanks for explaining.

 

[Justadude]

Well that's part of Amish culture. They used to just shun people, and maybe still do

Oh they most certainly still shun people. I've seen it many times, even in people who have left the church but still shun out of habit.

but their judging of who is in and who is out is very much based on appearance. I saw the same thing among Weslyan Methodist. It's all about how you dress and act. It creates judgemental people. A woman who wore pants for example, was automatically a non Christian.

That's certainly a big part of it. I remember when my then-girlfriend, now-wife, went to her first family reunion with my Amish family. At first she wanted to wear shorts (it was August) and I begged her to just wear a summer dress. She eventually gave in after I explained to her that once she made that first impression, it was going to be a very steep and long road to change it.

 

[Helen]

Most people I have met bearing the label of Christian will deny the possibility of being perfect before the dirt is thrown over their faces. To me that calls God a liar. To you perhaps it raises just another question that makes no sense at all.

All these years John and I'm not sure I knew that!
Wrong thread here to discuss it...but I think God has His own definition about perfect. He look at fearful Job and attributes perfection...He called quivering Gideon " Mighty man of valour".
He called Lot who chose to live in Sodom "Righteous Lot"...and so on.. but I have a feeling that 'your perfection ' may not be my perfection...yours reads like we can somehow work our way into perfection right?

We must chat about it sometime.


Back to Topic...

 

[amadeus]

I've seen a surprising amount of appeals to circular arguments since joining this forum, mostly in the form of "You have to believe first, then it'll make sense, then you'll be a believer".

For people living in a world with often some science learned in school the logic against a circular argument may difficult for them to refute. Many will not try. Some of them really do not understand where they are, simply being fair weather friend kind of Christians, which to me means not really very much like Jesus at all.

I won't try to convert you, but you do need to understand, but to the rational mind of man alone it is a circular argument. You do have to believe before you increase toward God. It is stated here:

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6

I cannot by arguing with you and "winning" a debate get you to join with me in my walk with God. If you listen to me and join, there was something already drawing you to which you yielded and then God used me. Jesus speaks of it here:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44

And here:

"For many are called, but few are chosen." Matt 22:14

I know that some, perhaps many, sincere believers do not understand this. I am also certain that many pastors and other Christian leader fail to understand this. That is, they disagree with me. I won't say they disagree with God, for I too do not have all of God's answers to every question.

I see. Then I guess the question was whether anyone believes the code of conduct they strive to live by isn't "right". To that I can only answer that I've never encountered such a person.

According to what Solomon wrote they all think they are right even if they don't always or even are unable to live up to their own 'code of conduct'. Where many Christians stumble, as I believe it, is that they presume they are exceptions to that because of what Jesus did for them.

If you have ever heard these words spoke by Ghandi who was never a Christian, you may have a better understanding of it all:

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." by Mahatma Gandhi.

 

[Renniks]

Oh they most certainly still shun people. I've seen it many times, even in people who have left the church but still shun out of habit.


That's certainly a big part of it. I remember when my then-girlfriend, now-wife, went to her first family reunion with my Amish family. At first she wanted to wear shorts (it was August) and I begged her to just wear a summer dress. She eventually gave in after I explained to her that once she made that first impression, it was going to be a very steep and long road to change it.

Being raised Weslyan Methodist, I can tell you it's a hard mindset to overcome. Luckily I had a Mom who thought outside the box, in spite of being in that church. She would tell us that God judges the heart, not the outward appearance. We have had some super Mennonite friends ( not buggy Mennonite, but the ones who drive cars) but there's the same mindset there a lot. Now I laugh, because I worship where most everyone wears jeans to church. It's so much more freeing and relaxed to let God be the judge.

 

[Justadude]

For people living in a world with often some science learned in school the logic against a circular argument may difficult for them to refute. Many will not try. Some of them really do not understand where they are, simply being well weather friend kind Christians, which to me means not really very much like Jesus at all.

It's very astute of you to mention science, since that's what I do. I've always been inclined towards empirical thinking, and I'm convinced it's the main reason I'm not religious.

I won't try to convert you, but you do need to understand, but to the rational mind of man alone it is a circular argument. You do have to believe before you increase toward God. It is stated here:

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6

To me, that reads as you saying that in order to be a Christian, I must embrace and employ irrational and circular thinking. My first reaction to that is....why? Isn't that a key aspect in scams and con-man schemes? Once they convince you to suspend critical thinking, you're ripe to be persuaded to just about anything, right?

I cannot by arguing with you and "winning" a debate get you to join with me in my walk with God. If you listen to me and join, there was something already drawing you to which you yielded and then God used me. Jesus speaks of it here:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44

And here:

"For many are called, but few are chosen." Matt 22:14

I know that some, perhaps many, sincere believers do not understand this. I am also certain that many pastors and other Christian leader fail to understand this. That is, they disagree with me. I won't say they disagree with God, for I too do not have all of God's answers to every question.

According to what Solomon wrote they all think they are right even if they don't always or even are unable to live up to their own 'code of conduct'. Where many Christians stumble, as I believe it, is that they presume they are exceptions to that because of what Jesus did for them.

You say they're wrong, they say you're wrong. Since there's no objective way to tell who's right, someone like me just shrugs and moves on.

If you have ever heard these words spoke by Ghandi who never a Christian, you may have a better understanding of it all:

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." by Mahatma Gandhi.

A quote that grows more relevant each year, I'm afraid.

 

[Justadude]

Being raised Weslyan Methodist, I can tell you it's a hard mindset to overcome. Luckily I had a Mom who thought outside the box, in spite of being in that church. She would tell us that God judges the heart, not the outward appearance. We have had some super Mennonite friends ( not buggy Mennonite, but the ones who drive cars) but there's the same mindset there a lot. Now I laugh, because I worship where most everyone wears jeans to church. It's so much more freeing and relaxed to let God be the judge.

That's very similar to my experiences. My dad left the Amish/Mennonite church before I was born, and we went to a church like you describe, where what you wore didn't matter (within reason). They were still weird though IMO. They spoke in tongues, cast out demons for things like the flu, and were overall quite conservative in their views on most subjects (politics, science, entertainment).

 

[bbyrd009]

I figure Christians behave one way when they're specifically evangelizing and another way when they're in places like this. When evangelizing they put on their best face because it's basically a sales pitch, right?

I have family members who are in the Amish and Mennonite denominations. I've seen how they act very nice and friendly to outsiders when those outsiders are there, but as soon as the outsiders leave they start talking behind their backs in extremely judgmental and condescending ways. And it's not just some of them who do that....it's very common in the Amish/Mennonite communities.

So I figure that since this is an online forum where we're all anonymous, what I'm getting here is more like what I see with my Amish relatives when the outsiders aren't around.

ha you know it's funny, Jesus said that ppl who were well didnt need a physician, but those who are sick, right?

That's very similar to my experiences. My dad left the Amish/Mennonite church before I was born, and we went to a church like you describe, where what you wore didn't matter (within reason). They were still weird though IMO. They spoke in tongues, cast out demons for things like the flu, and were overall quite conservative in their views on most subjects (politics, science, entertainment).

yeh the outside of the cup must be clean and approved huh lol