I don't understand Romans 9 anymore

[friend of]

Have you never wondered why you had the advantage of being born in the U.S. under the Christian west, instead of a foreign region that does not know Jesus Christ? There is a much deeper matter going on which I will not discuss here, but there is a reason why we are born to the station ordained for us

Well now you've got me curious. I would encourage you to go on.

 

[Adam]

God owns humanity. God can maim and torture humanity in hell if He chooses, because He owns humanity.

Therefore, if I own someone, wouldn't I have that same right? Why or why not?

This is why the idea of an all-loving God and eternal hell are incompatible.

God doesn't own humans, God is at one with everything. Humanity is a part of God. So how can God despise it? At the same time, God is at one with all matter and all spiritual realms, so how can there be a place which is separate from God?

God doesn't torture humans, humans torture ourselves, by struggling against God.

 

[Johann]

Basically, by Paul's logic, I should be allowed to buy an animal and maim and torture it because it's my property and I own it.

Romans 9:22-23
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

If you were a father of two boys, would you beat one of them with a belt until they pass out in order to show the other one how much you love him?

I don't get it anymore.

Bible Verses about God's Election


Romans 9:11-18
(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.' Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

John 6:44-45
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.'Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

1 Corinthians 1:26-30
For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—

Ephesians 1:3-12
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

1 Peter 2:9-12
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul, having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Deuteronomy 7:6-8
"For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; but because the LORD loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Romans 8:28-30
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Romans 9:4-8
who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Romans 11:7-8
What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Just as it is written:
'God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.'

1 Corinthians 4:7
For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

 

[Lambano]

And then there's the question of what it means to be "God's people".

 

[Davy]

This is why the idea of an all-loving God and eternal hell are incompatible.

God doesn't own humans, God is at one with everything. Humanity is a part of God. So how can God despise it? At the same time, God is at one with all matter and all spiritual realms, so how can there be a place which is separate from God?

God doesn't torture humans, humans torture ourselves, by struggling against God.

Destroyed means destroyed, whether one believes it is a perpetual destroying or a single event with only the smoke ascending eternally.

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (geena - lake of fire).
KJV

 

[Davy]

Well now you've got me curious. I would encourage you to go on.

It's a matter of election and being pre-ordained, which is the subject Apostle Paul is covering there in Romans 9.

Haven't you ever wondered why Jesus simply went up to His Apostles and commanded them to follow Him without asking them first to believe on Him? How did they know Jesus was not some kind of Jim Jones character?

And especially, haven't you wondered how Jesus could blind Saul (later Apostle Paul) on the road to Damascus and convert him without his having believed on Jesus? Saul even had authority from the unbelieving Jews to hunt down Christians and bring them back to Jerusalem in chains.

And then we have all the Old Testament examples of election, like Jonah who refused to go preach to pagan Nineveh, but God made him do it anyway.

John 17 explains a lot of this, in Jesus' prayer to The Father. The matter is about 'ownership', and being 'sent'. Not to pump anyone up, especially not myself, but if one finds theirself in a situation to serve Christ and they don't quite know how they got there, it could mean they are a 'sent' one by Christ, ordained and elect.

 

[Adam]

Destroyed means destroyed, whether one believes it is a perpetual destroying or a single event with only the smoke ascending eternally.

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (geena - lake of fire).
KJV

This is a translation issue, this is the word used: apolesai

Matthew 10:28 Greek Text Analysis

The Greek word for “destroy” is apolesai, which derives from the verb form apollumi.

Regarding apollumi, W. E. Vine comments: “The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being” (1991, 211).

Or in other words, it does not refer to destruction or even permanent torture, but simply a state of loss. When a vase is cracked and not usable, the same word is used; as is a sheep who is lost. It in no sense refers to the permanent annihilation of something.

Mankind is made in the image of God - like how a seed is the image of a tree or a baby is the image of a man, they mature into their full form over time; and in the same way, God's creations also contain the ability to mature into oneness with God. By no means does God want or need to destroy something which contains His own image.

 

[Davy]

This is a translation issue, this is the word used: apolesai

Matthew 10:28 Greek Text Analysis

The Greek word for “destroy” is apolesai, which derives from the verb form apollumi.

Regarding apollumi, W. E. Vine comments: “The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being” (1991, 211).

Or in other words, it does not refer to destruction or even permanent torture, but simply a state of loss. When a vase is cracked and not usable, the same word is used; as is a sheep who is lost. It in no sense refers to the permanent annihilation of something.

Mankind is made in the image of God - like how a seed is the image of a tree or a baby is the image of a man, they mature into their full form over time; and in the same way, God's creations also contain the ability to mature into oneness with God. By no means does God want or need to destroy something which contains His own image.

From Greek apollumi comes the KJV translation "perdition", as in "son of perdition", pointing to the devil himself, and those who follow him, like Judas Iscariot. So what you are inferring is that the devil is never going to be destroyed, which is not what my Bible says. Thus the idea you are actually pushing is wishful thinking for the devil and his workers.

 

[bbyrd009]

Israel, who rejected their Messiah

hmm, dunno if that is the best image of Israel...
Not all who are born Israel are of Israel

 

[bbyrd009]

I understand where you are coming from Friend. Many things in the Bible appear to make Jehovah unrighteous sir, but hopefully it is our understanding as the Bible reveals Him as love. I would imagine that like me, you have came to the conclusion that satan is not righteous, and he does not have our best interests at heart. So we know for a fact that he is an unrighteous god.

Keep in mind, the sin of Adam and Eve was much more that just eating off of a forbidden tree, remember what satan told Eve, you will be like God, in other words, choosing for yourself what is right and wrong, they could be their own god, so Jehovah allowed that. Rarely does He interfere in society, but, soon now the Kingdom will come, Jesus is already the King in heaven, and when the Kingdom comes, satan will be removed from the earth, and Jehovah is going to show us beyond any doubt the comparison of how the world would be with Him as God, in 1k yrs vs the 6k satan and man has had. We will know Him beyond any doubt, so it should be our goal to see it for ourselves. That time period will show beyond any doubt if God is Love or not. It is my goal to do His will, until I come to believe He is wicked. I hope that time never comes.

tomorrow never comes tho eh

 

[bbyrd009]

We need to understand the difference between good and evil.

yeh, take another bite of that apple

Sin needs to be judged

well, or forgiven
whatevs

 

[bbyrd009]

Those of us who are in Christ

ha i see breadofdeath has a contender for the throne lol

 

[bbyrd009]

I believe in a literal hell and that the wicked will go there

thank Yah you dont have a clue then i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

you asked: if you had two boys would you beat one of them with a belt until they pass out in order to show the other one how much you love him?

What if it isn’t two boys.
But instead would you beat debates, strife hatred and destruction with a whip until they pass …in order to show “the other” love, Charity, Peace…Just how Much you Mercy ?

What if it isn’t two boys?
1 Corinthians 15:49

hey vij howya been? Still dukin it out with the lawyers huh?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

thank Yah you dont have a clue then i guess

The story of the Rich man who went to torments is proof there is a hell (if you believe Scripture).

 

[ScottA]

Basically, by Paul's logic, I should be allowed to buy an animal and maim and torture it because it's my property and I own it.

Romans 9:22-23
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

If you were a father of two boys, would you beat one of them with a belt until they pass out in order to show the other one how much you love him?

I don't get it anymore.

Paul went on to conclude his point, giving the reason for what God has done:

Romans 11:11​

I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.​

 

[bbyrd009]

The story of the Rich man who went to torments is proof there is a hell (if you believe Scripture).

well, so you say, but the point of that lesson is plainly stated, and imo you are using it for something else, that plainly contradicts Scripture in many other places

Gehenna is on earth, etc

 

[Bible Highlighter]

well, so you say, but the point of that lesson is plainly stated, and imo you are using it for something else, that plainly contradicts Scripture in many other places

Gehenna is on earth, etc

Not so.

They died.

“…that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.” (Luke 16:22-23).

It even says the rich man lift up his eyes in hell. So he was in hell.
The angels carried the beggar to Abraham’s bosom.
This is after they die. So this is not earth.

Jesus said he would be three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth (Matthew 12:40).
Jesus told the thief that he would be with in him in paradise that very day (Luke 23:43).
So when Jesus died, He went to the same place the beggar went.
Jesus also preached to the spirits in prison (According to Scripture).
This again is not on Earth.

 

[bbyrd009]

Not so.

They died.

“…that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.” (Luke 16:22-23).

It even says the rich man lift up his eyes in hell. So he was in hell.
The angels carried the beggar to Abraham’s bosom.
This is after they die. So this is not earth.

Jesus said he would be three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth (Matthew 12:40).
Jesus told the thief that he would be with in him in paradise that very day (Luke 23:43).
So when Jesus died, He went to the same place the beggar went.
Jesus also preached to the spirits in prison (According to Scripture).
This again is not on Earth.

Do you know a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool

fwiw b4 i discovered that "there was a man" was a Jewish way of starting a parable, i argued the same thing!

and if youll note, the Rich Man was not in hell after all,
23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side...
now, you might ask yours elf what Greek gods are doing in your NT...or you might see that there is no punishment in Hades' mythology...but whichever way you go, wadr, there is no Norse/Angle "hel" as we understand it in the Bible, not anywhere
All go to the same place

now i wouldnt disagree about the "torment" part, but the point of that parable is diff anyway, and i would just be leery of extracting erroneous messages from it, similar to how ppl invent "to be absent from the body..." when the point is "seek to please Yah whether present or absent"

 

[bbyrd009]

This again is not on Earth.

see, you can say that, but you really dont know that for sure eh?