I don't understand Romans 9 anymore

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you know a man wise inhis own eyes? There is more hope for a fool

fwiw b4 i discovered that "there was a man" was a Jewish way of starting a parble, i argued the same thing!

and if youll note, the Rich Man was not in hell after all,
23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side...
now, you might ask yours elf what Greek gods are doing in your NT...or you might see that there is no punishment in Hades' mythology...but whichever way you go, wadr, there is no Norse/Angle "hel" as we understand it in the Bible, not anywhere
All go to the same place

now i wouldnt disagree about the "torment" part, but the point of that parable is diff anyway, and i would just be leery of extracting erroneous messages from it, similar to how ppl invent "to be absent from the body..." when the point is "seek to please Yah whether present or absent"

When the conversation lowers itself to individual name calling it really is sad indeed.

While I am wishing you nothing but good things to you Jesus Christ, I believe I must move on from talking with you (as a result of this).

In any event, may the Lord’s goodness shine upon you.

 

[bbyrd009]

When the conversation lowers itself to individual name calling it really is sad indeed.

While I am wishing you nothing but good things to you Jesus Christ, I believe I must move on from talking with you (as a result of this).

In any event, may the Lord’s goodness shine upon you.

name calling? what?
that is what you are choosing to extract from all that

 

[Adam]

From Greek apollumi comes the KJV translation "perdition", as in "son of perdition", pointing to the devil himself, and those who follow him, like Judas Iscariot. So what you are inferring is that the devil is never going to be destroyed, which is not what my Bible says. Thus the idea you are actually pushing is wishful thinking for the devil and his workers.

If you mean Revelations, the Devil is thrown into the fire - that is, the fires of purification, of penance.

Why would God have to permanently destroy an evil being? Evil is destructive to itself, so evil is ultimately a self-correcting problem. Consider for example, two men. One man always works for his bread, and the other always steals. The man who always steals, faces constant beatings, imprisonment, and ultimately decides - I have to work for my bread if for no other reason than because I will suffer more by stealing. The end result is the same, but the path is different. Jesus gives the example to the Pharisees, of the Parable of the Unjust Steward, that an evil man acting in self-interest, should have the foresight to do something good for others because it is in his own interest.

Because it is in the nature of the universe for conscious beings to want (at the very least) their own benefit, then even the most selfish beings will seek God in the end.

 

[Lambano]

hmm, dunno if that is the best image of Israel...
Not all who are born Israel are of Israel

True. This section, chapters 9-11, are about the Big Picture that's on Paul's mind, and probably on the mind of the Jewish-Christian part of his audience: What happened to Israel, how could our God allow this to happen, and what's next for our kinsmen?

Although some of the principles Paul expresses can be applied in a wider scope, it drives me nuts when I see modern Christians pulling stuff out of its original context.

 

[Robert Gwin]

tomorrow never comes tho eh

Yes sir, everyday! Today is yesterday's tomorrow. I must admit however, it is based on God's existence Byrd, if He doesn't exist, then true His promises will not come.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

hey vij howya been? Still dukin it out with the lawyers huh?

Hanging around like a loose tooth. How are you? And Where you been?

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes sir, everyday! Today is yesterday's tomorrow. I must admit however, it is based on God's existence Byrd, if He doesn't exist, then true His promises will not come.

to that i would say that we are very literal-minded, me too, but “existence” implies “objective evidence,” and is likely not the best metric for Spirit?

 

[bbyrd009]

What happened to Israel, how could our God allow this to happen, and what's next for our kinsmen?

ha well as the v implies, i dont even consider them Israel tbh

 

[bbyrd009]

Hanging around like a loose tooth. How are you? And Where you been?

ive been back in the Roaring Fork valley for a couple years now…wow, three, this Xmas
driving a bus for RFTA, mostly, and trying to get back in some kinda shape lol

 

[bbyrd009]

Not so.

They died.

“…that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.” (Luke 16:22-23).

It even says the rich man lift up his eyes in hell. So he was in hell.
The angels carried the beggar to Abraham’s bosom.
This is after they die. So this is not earth.

Jesus said he would be three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth (Matthew 12:40).
Jesus told the thief that he would be with in him in paradise that very day (Luke 23:43).
So when Jesus died, He went to the same place the beggar went.
Jesus also preached to the spirits in prison (According to Scripture).
This again is not on Earth.

you get that Lazarus reps the then-current state of the theocracy, and is the Greek way to say Eleazer, yeh? The Rich Man being the then-current Rothschilds of the day, i guess

id continue on with the other passages re Jesus, but i guess you would maybe hear that even less right now; suffice it to say that there are more meaningful interpretations that cause the literal ones to pale into insignificance

 

[bbyrd009]

When the conversation lowers itself to individual name calling it really is sad indeed.

While I am wishing you nothing but good things to you Jesus Christ, I believe I must move on from talking with you (as a result of this).

In any event, may the Lord’s goodness shine upon you.

hopefully you understand that you were not being called any names? Just a reminder to not get too wise in your own eyes

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Not so.

They died.

“…that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.” (Luke 16:22-23).

It even says the rich man lift up his eyes in hell. So he was in hell.
The angels carried the beggar to Abraham’s bosom.
This is after they die. So this is not earth.

Jesus said he would be three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth (Matthew 12:40).
Jesus told the thief that he would be with in him in paradise that very day (Luke 23:43).
So when Jesus died, He went to the same place the beggar went.
Jesus also preached to the spirits in prison (According to Scripture).
This again is not on Earth.

Is this a passage you would say supports your belief?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Is this a passage you would say supports your belief?

Why would you think that it doesn’t support my belief? What Scripture undoes the ones I posted or explains it better?

 

[bbyrd009]

Why would you think that it doesn’t support my belief? What Scripture undoes the ones I posted or explains it better?

what would be the point, if you cannot hear them? Lazarus was surely not a person, but an avatar

1. Abraham’s faithful steward
   

   ---

   The Lazarus of the parable represented Abraham’s faithful steward Eleazar. And faithful he was! Though he had been the legal heir to receive all of Abraham’s possessions (Genesis 15:3), Abraham gave him an assignment which was to result in his own disinheritance.
   

   Abraham and Eleazer: 'Rich Man and Lazarus' Parable - Academia.…​

   
   www.academia.edu/27606717/Abraham_and_Eleazer_Rich_Man_and_Lazarus_Parable
2. 
   
3. 
   which this is surely a commentary by another cult-of-sol believer, so, grain of salt
   

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Why would you think that it doesn’t support my belief? What Scripture undoes the ones I posted or explains it better?

I confused this one with the one I’d started in evidence of what you believe.

For me which doesn’t mean it is right…but only what I think of while reading your post on the rich man in hell and Lazarus.

One is the rich man looks up, lifts up his eyes being in torment seeing Abraham afar off with Lazarus in Abrahams bosom, also there is a great chasm between; so great it is impossible; which supposedly Christ took away the great chasm making of two: One new man..that there be no more chasm within the body; between. Even “taking down (removing)the wall” that separates (are we to ignore this?). this makes me think of “look up for your redemption draws near” He is coming! Saying when in torment and distresses to look up, lift up your eyes… For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. [23] But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. [24] And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. [25] And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; [26] Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. [27] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. [28] And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luke 21:22-28

It is hard to ignore the Son in the bosom of the Father with He comes near unto you. It is hard to ignore our saying “torment” or hell is not on earth but at the same time talking about “signs” of futuristic distresses so severe it is “woe!”…upon earth! Yea! We even clap and cheer and wait for it! We don’t say in heaven but on earth. Unless I’ve misunderstood it is on earth He says to look up, to lift up your eyes in distresses for He comes and “saves” …yet we say He comes to slash and stomp until the blood is so deep that it reaches—rises—up to the bridles of literal horses. sounds like hell or torment to me…the blood of all Gods enemies shed that is so deep you could swim or drown in it. Worse than Noah’s ark which was water rising but this time blood shed. Unless I misunderstood predicting “torment (Gods wrath unleashed unrestrained) upon earth” yet at the same time “not on earth” but some “spiritual never-ending-hell” while at the same time going in and one how it isn’t spiritual but “literal”. is sooo contradictory; all of what we claim…at least to me. To me the good news is to look up, lift up your eyes like in the parable although not seeing afar off (like a parable which he said is to speak and they don’t understand) but near is the Son sent out from the Fathers bosom (where He said no longer in parable but plainly God will speak)?

I get that is a lot. But what are contradictions? And why does Christianity speak so much in endless contradictions?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

One is the rich man looks up, lifts up his eyes being in torment seeing Abraham afar off with Lazarus in Abrahams bosom, also there is a great chasm between; so great it is impossible; which supposedly Christ took away the great chasm making of two: One new man..that there be no more chasm within the body; between. Even “taking down (removing)the wall” that separates (are we to ignore this?). this makes me think of “look up for your redemption draws near” He is coming! Saying when in torment and distresses to look up, lift up your eyes… For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. [23] But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. [24] And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. [25] And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; [26] Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. [27] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. [28] And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luke 21:22-28

It is hard to ignore the Son in the bosom of the Father with He comes near unto you. It is hard to ignore our saying “torment” or hell is not on earth but at the same time talking about “signs” of futuristic distresses so severe it is “woe!”…upon earth! Yea! We even clap and cheer and wait for it! We don’t say in heaven but on earth.

If we want to insist it as literal …a summary from google “This is the plague with which the LORD will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. On that day men will be stricken by the LORD with great panic.”

sounds kind of hellish on earth to me. All that rot has got to stink

 

[Davy]

If you mean Revelations, the Devil is thrown into the fire - that is, the fires of purification, of penance.

And so the devil's children believe, as if there is still hope once cast into the future "lake of fire".

No hope at that event, they are GONE, NO MORE.

Ps 104:35
35 Let sinners be consumed out of the earth. And let the wicked be no more. Bless Jehovah, O my soul. Praise ye Jehovah.
ASV

Ps 37:34-36
34 Wait on the LORD, and keep His way, and He shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.
36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
KJV

 

[Stan B]

A while back, my pastor did a detailed verse by verse study of Romans. He is a PhD kind of who doesn’t believe in adding to Scripture anything he doesn’t understand, and on a number of occasions while going through Romans 9, after reading a verse he would say that he did not understand the passage and continue on to the next verse.

I like his approach!

 

[Nancy]

God owns humanity. God can maim and torture humanity in hell if He chooses, because He owns humanity.

Therefore, if I own someone, wouldn't I have that same right? Why or why not?

Thing is Friend of, everything is on loan down here. God owns everything, He gives and He takes and vengeance is His. He "wages war in righteousness" and everything He does IS righteous.
God owns us and everything He has given us. We "own" nothing.
I hope you can get past this Friend

 

[Davy]

A while back, my pastor did a detailed verse by verse study of Romans. He is a PhD kind of who doesn’t believe in adding to Scripture anything he doesn’t understand, and on a number of occasions while going through Romans 9, after reading a verse he would say that he did not understand the passage and continue on to the next verse.

I like his approach!

Only if all PhD's were like that.

I once listened to a PhD from Vanderbilt seminary, said he was going to preach about Apostle Paul and Timothy, so I opened up my Bible to 1 Timothy 1 and got ready. He did not quote even one single verse from the Bible. He went on tirade of how we need to adopt the children of foreign nations. He had obviously been trained by globalists. And at that time, one of my co-workers, he and his wife, were trying to adopt an American child, but there was so much red tape in the way, they were forced to adopt from Ukraine. Obviously, I never went back to that Church.