I don't understand Romans 9 anymore

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friend of

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Basically, by Paul's logic, I should be allowed to buy an animal and maim and torture it because it's my property and I own it.

Romans 9:22-23
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

If you were a father of two boys, would you beat one of them with a belt until they pass out in order to show the other one how much you love him?

I don't get it anymore.
 
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Wrangler

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Maybe another translation will make sense.

22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. 23 He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory.
 

Jim B

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Basically, by Paul's logic, I should be allowed to buy an animal and maim and torture it because it's my property and I own it.

Romans 9:22-23
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

If you were a father of two boys, would you beat one of them with a belt until they pass out in order to show the other one how much you love him?

I don't get it anymore.
You are correct: you don't get it. God "bore with great patience the objects of His wrath" [all people] ... " to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy" [those who have accepted Christ].

How you can possibly connect his with the disturbing thought that "I should be allowed to buy an animal and maim and torture it because it's my property and I own it" is beyond me.

Additionally, your last sentence is mind-boggling!
 

-Phil

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Basically, by Paul's logic, I should be allowed to buy an animal and maim and torture it because it's my property and I own it.

Romans 9:22-23
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

If you were a father of two boys, would you beat one of them with a belt until they pass out in order to show the other one how much you love him?

I don't get it anymore.
If you were to buy an animal and maim & torture it, in the ignorance that it is yours…
If you were to be the father of two boys and beat one or both of them, in the ignorance they are yours…
Indeed, you will feel the wrath of God within yourself, as truly they are yourself.

Notice Paul says “what if God”, not ”what if ye”.
 
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friend of

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How you can possibly connect his with the disturbing thought that "I should be allowed to buy an animal and maim and torture it because it's my property and I own it" is beyond me.
God owns humanity. God can maim and torture humanity in hell if He chooses, because He owns humanity.

Therefore, if I own someone, wouldn't I have that same right? Why or why not?
 
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Lambano

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I don't get it anymore.
Hey, Friend? Read Romans chapters 9, 10, and 11 together as a single unit. This section of Romans is about Israel's election as God's people, and whether God has un-elected them. Paul is talking about his own people; don't think that didn't bother him?

By the end of chapter 11, Paul has concluded that God isn't like that.

30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all.
 

friend of

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Hey, Friend? Read Romans chapters 9, 10, and 11 together as a single unit. This section of Romans is about Israel's election as God's people, and whether God has un-elected them. Paul is talking about his own people; don't think that didn't bother him?
I'm okay with people interpreting it as speaking about Israel, but I also think it can be interpreted as speaking about an individual basis. Israel is comprised of individuals after all. But thanks for your reply.
 

Lambano

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I'm okay with people interpreting it as speaking about Israel, but I also think it can be interpreted as speaking about an individual basis. Israel is comprised of individuals after all. But thanks for your reply.
It IS about Israel, from verse 9:1 through 11:32. Read it. Israel, God's people as they had traditionally defined themselves. Israel, who rejected their Messiah. It's about Israel's election- and whether they were chosen to be destroyed.

In verses 9:22-23, Paul asks "What if...?" What if God chose Israel as His people (Deuteronomy 7:6) and put up with them for a thousand years in order to destroy them? As an object lesson for the benefit of another people? God is sovereign and He can do that, but how can anybody trust such a god?

Paul of course rejects this "What if?" in chapter 11.

If you want, you can extend Paul's "What if?" principle to individuals universally, though you have to take the principle out of its original context. The interminable Calvinist/Arminian debates originate there. You can - but the question, "Can you trust such a god?" still applies.
 

Enoch111

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I don't understand Romans 9 anymore

It is not too difficult to understand Romans 9:22,23. Let's stick with the KJB:

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory...

1. God is very longsuffering with the wicked and evildoers. Indeed the wicked prosper in this life.

2. At the same time, in His divine FOREKNOWLEDGE God knows the end of those who will face His wrath and end up in Hell.

3. Those who persist in sin and evil rather than repent and be converted are called "vessels of wrath". They are fit for "destruction" in that they have chosen to be eternally damned.

4. God does not choose some for salvation and others for damnation. Those who are damned choose their own paths (e.g. the evil Pharaoh who opposed God). But God already knows their end.

5. God's power is displayed in that He has given Christ to be the Judge of all men, and Christ will sit on the Great White Throne and make righteous judgments on the day of judgment.

6. At the same time there are people who are "vessels of mercy". God is merciful to sinners who have repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. Those are His children.

7. Not only will they be justified by grace through faith, but they will also be perfected and glorified by the power of Christ. And this brings glory to God.
 

Robert Gwin

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Basically, by Paul's logic, I should be allowed to buy an animal and maim and torture it because it's my property and I own it.

Romans 9:22-23
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

If you were a father of two boys, would you beat one of them with a belt until they pass out in order to show the other one how much you love him?

I don't get it anymore.
I understand where you are coming from Friend. Many things in the Bible appear to make Jehovah unrighteous sir, but hopefully it is our understanding as the Bible reveals Him as love. I would imagine that like me, you have came to the conclusion that satan is not righteous, and he does not have our best interests at heart. So we know for a fact that he is an unrighteous god.

Keep in mind, the sin of Adam and Eve was much more that just eating off of a forbidden tree, remember what satan told Eve, you will be like God, in other words, choosing for yourself what is right and wrong, they could be their own god, so Jehovah allowed that. Rarely does He interfere in society, but, soon now the Kingdom will come, Jesus is already the King in heaven, and when the Kingdom comes, satan will be removed from the earth, and Jehovah is going to show us beyond any doubt the comparison of how the world would be with Him as God, in 1k yrs vs the 6k satan and man has had. We will know Him beyond any doubt, so it should be our goal to see it for ourselves. That time period will show beyond any doubt if God is Love or not. It is my goal to do His will, until I come to believe He is wicked. I hope that time never comes.
 
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Jim B

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Basically, by Paul's logic, I should be allowed to buy an animal and maim and torture it because it's my property and I own it.

Romans 9:22-23
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

If you were a father of two boys, would you beat one of them with a belt until they pass out in order to show the other one how much you love him?

I don't get it anymore.
You are correct: you don't get it. God "bore with great patience the objects of His wrath" [all people] ... " to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy" [those who have accepted Christ].

How you can possibly connect his with the disturbing thought that "I should be allowed to buy an animal and maim and torture it because it's my property and I own it" is beyond me.

Additionally, your last sentence is mind-boggling!
God owns humanity. God can maim and torture humanity in hell if He chooses, because He owns humanity.

Therefore, if I own someone, wouldn't I have that same right? Why or why not?
a) The question is absurd.
b) You're not God (surprise!)
 

Ronald David Bruno

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We need to understand the difference between good and evil.
Sin needs to be judged.
Seeing punishment and even death detours us from doing things that would warrant His punishment or wrath.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge. By fear, that means to take Him seriously. The wages of sin is death and likely before death comes pain and sufferung; so be good, seek God, obey or else.
 
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Jim B

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We need to understand the difference between good and evil.
Sin needs to be judged.
Seeing punishment and even death detours us from doing things that would warrant His punishment or wrath.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge. By fear, that means to take Him seriously. The wages of sin is death and likely before death comes pain and sufferung; so be good, seek God, obey or else.
This applies to non-Christians only. Sin has been judged -- in Christ. Those of us who are in Christ have been judged -- and acquitted.
 

Bible Highlighter

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Basically, by Paul's logic, I should be allowed to buy an animal and maim and torture it because it's my property and I own it.

Romans 9:22-23
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

If you were a father of two boys, would you beat one of them with a belt until they pass out in order to show the other one how much you love him?

I don't get it anymore.
Romans 9-11 is dealing with Israel.
Romans 9 is not isolated from the rest of the book of Romans, either.
The whole point of Romans 9 was written with the Jew in mind in how they were trying to wrongfully earn salvation by “Works Alone Salvationism” (without God's grace through Jesus Christ), and how they found favor with God based on their nationality (in that they were God's people, Israel).

Romans 9:6-8 is a refutation of the Israelites false belief of salvific nationalism.
Romans 9:9-16 is a refutation of the Israelites false belief of “Works Alone Salvationism” (without Jesus and His grace) but salvation is by him who calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus (Compare Romans 9:11 with Romans 10:13).
Romans 9:17-18 sets up the dilemma for the Israelite in being saved by God's grace and mercy on His terms. Pharaoh was hardened on God's terms in that we know that a person's heart is hardened by their own sin. For a believer who sins and hardens their heart, they can then fall into unbelief and depart from the living God (See: Hebrews 3:12-15). Sin is the breaking of the Law or commandment (1 John 3:4). The Israelite was hardening their heart against God on account of their sin or disobedience to the command to believe in Jesus (1 John 3:23).
Romans 9:19 is the Israelite complaining about how can God find fault because they believe they are doing God's will as an Israelite.
Romans 9:20 A voice answers the Israelite and criticizes the Israelite. The voice asks a question from the Israelites perspective, “Why have you made me this way [i.e. as an Israelite, a keeper of the Law]?”
When reading Romans 9:21-23, we have to keep in mind that God elects based on His foreknowledge (His future foreknowledge of what they are going to do) (1 Peter 1:1-2). The language present in this passage is reminiscent of Jeremiah 18 about how God will form the clay based upon how a nation does not hear his voice, He will turn back on the good He would do unto them. God warns Jerusalem and Judah that He frames evil against them unless they repent. Meaning, based on what we do, a person will fall into one of two categories. The resurrection of life, and the resurrection of the damned (i.e. the vessels of wrath and mercy). God will render to every man according to his deeds (See: Romans 2:6).

Romans 9:30-32 clarifies (recaps) what was being said:

“What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;” (Romans 9:30-32).

“...rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.” (Romans 11:11).

The word “call” used in Romans 9 in reference to God calling does not prove that God is forcing anything upon a person. For many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14).
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Basically, by Paul's logic, I should be allowed to buy an animal and maim and torture it because it's my property and I own it.

Romans 9:22-23
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

If you were a father of two boys, would you beat one of them with a belt until they pass out in order to show the other one how much you love him?

I don't get it anymore.
Under God’s illumination and drawing, man has free will to either reject or accept the good news.

2 Thessalonians 2:10
”And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

2 Peter 3:9
”The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
 

Bible Highlighter

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God owns humanity. God can maim and torture humanity in hell if He chooses, because He owns humanity.

Therefore, if I own someone, wouldn't I have that same right? Why or why not?
People only deserve hell because of their sins against God and if they refuse to repent. It’s not like God just decided to randomly throw people in hell for no good reason. People reap what they sow. If they sow to the flesh, they reap corruption. If they sow to the Spirit, they will reap everlasting life (See: Galatians 6:8-9). They are created as objects of wrath because they chose to be that way. God knows people’s future free will choices. God knows who will repent and who will not repent. People are either going to be a sheep or a goat in the end and this is based on their own free will choice to be one or the other.

I believe in a literal hell and that the wicked will go there. This is because they sinned against a holy God. Sin is destructive and it leads to only heart ache, and destruction. Now, some have a problem with Eternal Torment in the Lake of Fire (After the Judgment). I don’t blame them because it is not biblical, and or moral. Paul says of the wicked: “Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9). This means they will be destroyed (erased, or annihilated from existence).

Check out my thread here to learn more:

 
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Ernest T. Bass

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Basically, by Paul's logic, I should be allowed to buy an animal and maim and torture it because it's my property and I own it.

Romans 9:22-23
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

If you were a father of two boys, would you beat one of them with a belt until they pass out in order to show the other one how much you love him?

I don't get it anymore.
Romans 9 has nothing to do with how men are saved or lost per Calvinism's wrong ideas of election. In Romans 9 Paul is dealing with the Jews. In Romans 9, Paul already knows God has cast the Jews off (Rom 11) and they were cast off for unbelief and in Romans 9 Paul is refuting any argument the Jew had that God was unfair and acted unrighteously in casting off the Jews. Paul proves God was in fact just and right in casting off the Jews.

As far as God "endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction", back in Genesis God promised Abraham that through him all nations would be blessed therefore God chose Abraham and his descendants Isaac, Jacob and Israel to being the Messiah to all nations. Yet the OT is a written history of Israel's constant disobedience and rebellion to God and God's longsuffering with them. The Jews understood the Messiah would come through them, therefore that knew no matter what they did God would preserve them until the Messiah came forth, that God would preserve them even in their sins, so they continued to rebel against God.

They murmered against Moses and the manna, God sent fiery serpents among them but they still rebelled. They turned again and again to idols and God would allow them to go into captivity but they still rebelled. They told Samuel they wanted a King to rule over them like other nations rejecting God, (1 Sam 8:7) God sent prophets to them to warn them but they killed those prophets. God allowed the northern kingdom to go away but they still rebelled against God right up to when the Messiah did come and when He did come they even rejected Him. When the Messiah came God had fulfilled His promise to Abraham, therefore God had no reason to endure with longsuffering these vessels of wrath, the Jews....God's longduffering came to an end. As Paul points out, those Jews certainly were deserving of being cast off and face God's wrath. Even Jeremiah and Ezekiel said they were evil as Sodom (Jer 23; Eze 16).

Paul compares them to Pharaoh. God was longsuffering with Pharaoh's disobedience and God used Pharaoh's choice to disobey to accomplish God's own will in showing His power over him and magnify His name (Rom 9:17) with Pharaoh being destroyed in the end in the sea. Likewise God was longsuffering with Israel and used their disobedience in crucfying the Messiah to bring about God's will that Christ die for men with the Jews being destroyed in the end being cast off and Jerusalem be flattened by the Roman army. Yet the difference between Pharaoh's deatruction and Israel's is that with the destruction of Israel that brought about an open door to the Gentiles for the Gentiles to be saved (Rom 11:25). Yet God did not violate the free will of Pharaoh or Israel in bringing about His will for again, God used their free will choices to being about His will.

Therefore from the immediate and remote contexts we can see that the verb "fitted" in Rom 9:22 would be in the middle voice, that being, those Jews fitted themselves to be vessels of wrath. Arndt and Gingrich: “having prepared themselves for destruction” (1967, 419).
"The form of the word rendered “fitted” may be regarded as a middle voice, which implies action done by oneself with a view to one’s own aims and interests. There is a suggestion, therefore, that the persons referred to as “vessels of wrath” have fitted themselves for destruction" (Vine 1948, 147-48). We see from (Acts 13:46) the Jews of their own will put God's word away from themselves, (Acts 28:27) they closed their own eyes, (1 Thess 2:15-16) they killed Christ and the prophets and persecuted Paul and other Christians.

Rom 11:20ff
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off
.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.


God here warns the Gentiles that because He cast off the Jews and grafted them in, they should not be highminded lest God not spare them just as He did not spare the Jews. But God's goodness would be upon the Gentiles "IF" they continue in God's goodness and "IF" the Jews would not abide in unbelief, then God is able to graff them in again.
This does not make any sense when viewed under the lens of Calvinism. Under the system of Calvinism's election, elect people cannot be cast off (elect Jews cannot ever be cast off for they were and the now elect Gentile can never be cast off even though God said they could "spare not thee") nor can unelect people (Gentiles) ever be saved/elect but they were.
Nor does it make sense in God saying IF the Gentiles continue in His goodness else they would be cut off and IF the Jews abide not in unbelief God is able to graff them in again if God has already predetermined all that happens and unconditionally predestined each man's eternal destiny before the world began.

I would also argue that even if it could be proven "fitted" to be passive voice, that being, God fitted the Jews to be vessels of wrath, we can see from various BIble contexts that this fitting was not something God capriciously, unconditonally predetermined to happen before the world began regardless of what the Jews choose to do. But that the basis of God fitting them for destruction was due to the Jews OWN FREE WILL choice to disobey God. Paul again speaks of vessels of honor and dishonor in 2 Tim 2:20ff where the basis of determining a vessel be one of honor or dishnor is not capricious for Paul speaks of those who "purge themselves" will be a vessel of honor. Hence IF those Jews 'purge themselves' and not continue in unbelief, God is able to graff them in again whereby they too can be vessels of honor and not have to remain vessels of dishonor.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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Basically, by Paul's logic, I should be allowed to buy an animal and maim and torture it because it's my property and I own it.

Romans 9:22-23
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

If you were a father of two boys, would you beat one of them with a belt until they pass out in order to show the other one how much you love him?

I don't get it anymore.

you asked: if you had two boys would you beat one of them with a belt until they pass out in order to show the other one how much you love him?

What if it isn’t two boys.
But instead would you beat debates, strife hatred and destruction with a whip until they pass …in order to show “the other” love, Charity, Peace…Just how Much you Mercy ?

What if it isn’t two boys?
1 Corinthians 15:49
 
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Davy

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Basically, by Paul's logic, I should be allowed to buy an animal and maim and torture it because it's my property and I own it.

Romans 9:22-23
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

If you were a father of two boys, would you beat one of them with a belt until they pass out in order to show the other one how much you love him?

I don't get it anymore.
You do realize by that you are kind of questioning God's actions and authority?

Likewise in Jude 4 this same topic pops up...

Jude 3-4
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

Those are also called "brute beasts" later in verse 10. Peter likewise called them "natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed...":

2 Peter 2:12
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
KJV


Have you never wondered why you had the advantage of being born in the U.S. under the Christian west, instead of a foreign region that does not know Jesus Christ? There is a much deeper matter going on which I will not discuss here, but there is a reason why we are born to the station ordained for us.