I have a question that remains unanswered:

[Wrangler]

By the way, I do my best not to take things personally

Great. I eagerly await your answer to the 3 questions, posted here for your convenience.

Let me ask you a few simple questions;

1. Why would Jesus talk about his God if he were God?
2. Why would Rev 1:1 say God gave Jesus a revelation if Jesus were God?
3. And why would Jesus say his Father is the only true God, if Jesus was God?

 

[Abaxvahl]

I referenced Acts 2:33 in support of the last part of the sentence ("in order that...").

Acts 2 (WEB):

32) This Jesus God raised up, to which we all are witnesses.
33) Being therefore exalted by the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this, which you now see and hear.​

So verse 33 says that after Jesus had been resurrected by God (verse 32) he was exalted by God, and that he then received God's promise of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus then poured out on that day of Pentecost. It is God's Spirit, which God sends (John 14:26 [WEB] - "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and will remind you of all that I said to you"), yet Jesus pours it out - “When the Counselor has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will testify about me" (John 15:26 WEB). This is so that "that in all things he [Jesus] might have the preeminence" (Colossians 1:18).

So God's Holy Spirit came upon Jesus at Jesus' baptism, and stayed with him until his crucifixion, when at "About the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lima sabachthani?” That is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46). With the sins of all mankind placed on Jesus when he was on the cross, at that point God withdrew His Spirit. (Note Jesus said, "My God" - yet more evidence that Jesus is not God!)

Since his resurrection Jesus has been with God again, so he no longer needs to have God's Spirit upon him, but he now is working with God and is able to pour out God's Holy Spirit upon whom he chooses.

Receiving a promise doesn't mean He didn't have it before, like I said, immanent/economic distinction. Moreover Jesus saying "my God" is proof that He does have a God, His Father, it does not mean He is not the natural Son of God. If you are going to discuss the Trinity please do learn what we believe. Not only this but in the passage you quoted from John the same word is used, it does not say pour forth there. Then on top of this you broke off a passage from Colossians which speaks of His deity to say this is why it is so, when the why it is so is that the operations of the Father and the Son are one, which is in St. John's Gospel already.

Then you say that God the Father withdrew the Holy Spirit from Jesus, but you do not show why this is not merely the breath of life, the soul, leaving Jesus body and not the Holy Spirit leaving His soul, for it says as a definite point in Ecclesiastes that "and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the breath returns to God who gave it." He is quoting from Psalm 30. It seems more likely to me that why He died in this way was none other than "because of this the Father loves me, because I lay down my life so that I may take possession of it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down voluntarily. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take possession of it again. This commandment I received from my Father," (again, same operations, compare to St. Paul's Epistles) and has nothing at all to do with a loss of the Holy Spirit. Prove from the text that it is the loss of the Holy Spirit.

 

[BarneyFife]

Have you considered that there might be more than two columns?

Yes and it's not logical.

 

[BarneyFife]

However, Ananias tried to deceive Peter, and held back some of the money that he and his wife had received. He was effectively lying to Peter, but God's Holy Spirit was working in Peter, and God revealed the deception to him. Hence Peter said, that Ananias was lying not to men but to the Holy Spirit that was in him, which means that he was lying to God.

Why is it ok for those who object to trinitarianism to make assumptions based on context, but when Trinitarians do it, it's called "imposing belief onto Scripture?"

I'm simply appealing to logic. How can a person lie to something that isn't a sentient being?

Ananias was lying to Peter and therefore, by your contrived extension, the Holy Spirit? That's your counter to an appeal to logic?

 

[BarneyFife]

@Wrangler @Aunty Jane @Robert Gwin
.

In which column does Jesus belong?​

Note: It's not an essay question. Answer or don't answer, your choice.

 

[keithr]

in the passage you quoted from John the same word is used, it does not say pour forth there.

Eh? What word are you talking about?

Then you say that God the Father withdrew the Holy Spirit from Jesus, but you do not show why this is not merely the breath of life, the soul, leaving Jesus body and not the Holy Spirit leaving His soul, for it says as a definite point in Ecclesiastes that "and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the breath returns to God who gave it."

If the "breath of life" was removed then Jesus would have been dead, in which case he could not have spoken the words "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?". Jesus went on to say other things after this - “I thirst” (John 19:28); “It is finished” (John 19:30); and finally “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit” (Luke 23:46).

He is quoting from Psalm 30.

Actually, he was quoting from Psalms 22.

Prove from the text that it is the loss of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 27:46 is the proof. In order that Jesus might fully experience the weight of Divine Justice which belonged to the sinner, it was necessary that the Father should hide himself from him, as though he had been the sinner. This temporary separation from the Father was evidently the severest blow in all of the Master's experience - he died shortly after of a broken heart.

 

[keithr]

Yes and it's not logical.

So you think that it is logical that God's only begotten son is in fact God Himself? That is not logical!

 

[keithr]

God's Holy Spirit was lying to Peter and therefore, by your contrived extension, the Holy Spirit? That's your counter to an appeal to logic?

What? I never said that the Holy Spirit was lying to Peter!

 

[Wrangler]

@Wrangler @Aunty Jane @Robert Gwin
.

In which column does Jesus belong?​

Note: It's not an essay question. Answer or don't answer, your choice.

Like all men, Jesus is a created being.

 

[Wrangler]

I don't care ... and I don't care about your 3 almighty questions or your emotional mind games

One cannot know the truth before one CARES to know the truth.

Bless your heart.

 

[Wrangler]

So you bring up something that I haven't even mentioned--"baptizing in the name of."

Yes. It is called Reasoning by Analogy.

Let me humbly ask this, why do you have to be the one to bring up how baptism relates to the topic at hand? Why can’t other people bring up analogous subjects?

 

[Wrangler]

Who says the apostles were even trinitarians? Not me.

Profound.

To suppose otherwise is to suppose those who walked with Jesus did not know who he was or what he taught.

Given this level of ignorance, why in the world would we elevate their writings to the status of inerrant Word of God?

 

[Wrangler]

I'm not submitting to your "my-way-or-the-highway" parameters of discussion. ... I'm no victim.

Not sure where this is coming from. I never said anything like it’s "my-way-or-the-highway". Just reminding you of questions you did not answer.

You made it clear you do not CARE. And are the guy who said you did not mean anything by what you posted.

Glad you are not a victim - even though you invoke victim status frequently. Bless your heart.

Make a Blessed Day!

 

[BarneyFife]

What? I never said that the Holy Spirit was lying to Peter!

Typo: Ananias was lying to Peter and I think you know that.

 

[BarneyFife]

Like all men, Jesus is a created being.

John 1:3 Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

 

[Abaxvahl]

A1) Eh? What word are you talking about?
A2) If the "breath of life" was removed then Jesus would have been dead,
A3) in which case he could not have spoken the words "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?". Jesus went on to say other things after this - “I thirst” (John 19:28); “It is finished” (John 19:30); and finally “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit” (Luke 23:46).
A4) Actually, he was quoting from Psalms 22.
A5) Matthew 27:46 is the proof. In order that Jesus might fully experience the weight of Divine Justice which belonged to the sinner, it was necessary that the Father should hide himself from him, as though he had been the sinner. This temporary separation from the Father was evidently the severest blow in all of the Master's experience - he died shortly after of a broken heart.

Organized post for clearer response.

A1) The word for sending. "The Father sends" and "I send."
A2) He died after giving up His own life. "Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, 'Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!' And having said this he breathed his last." He announced what He was doing and then laid down His own life for He decided when to die.
A3) I was not talking about that saying. As you note, the "into your hands" came last.
A4) From Psalm 30 (31 in Hebrew): "Into thy hands I commend my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O Lord, the God of truth." I was speaking of this citation.
A5) Prove and define separation. Jesus existed at this time so evidently was not "separated" from God, for nothing which is truly apart from God can exist as God is the cause of existence. He only says "forsaken." Now here He does quote Psalm 21 (22 in Hebrew), so I will look at this Psalm to see what condition He means by saying "forsaken" in this condition:

1 - "the account of my transgressions is far from my salvation." We know truly that the Word was without sin, so it can not mean this, but you rightly interpret saying "as though he had been a sinner." For "He was numbered with the transgressors" the Prophet Isaiah says, and in Psalm 118 (119 in Hebrew) it says "salvation is far from sinners." So the first portion of this Psalm by "forsaken" we may see that it means for the Lord "numbered among sinners." But then what of "far from my salvation?" Scripture says there is salvation "through" Him, "in" Him, and "by" Him, and He Himself calls Himself life which St. John rightfully equates to salvation, so how can He be far from Himself? I do not know, there are a variety of possible interpretations. As a stand-in I will just take this one "with justice I said I was forsaken in my sufferings [most specifically so far to be numbered among transgressors], because my exemption from them would be incompatible with my satisfying for the sins of the human race, which I have taken upon me, and which I mean to wipe away." Perhaps just His temporal salvation which by undergoing death He was not saved, and salvation from death temporal is many times called "salvation" simply in the Psalter.
2 - "I will cry to thee by day, but thou wilt not hear: and by night." After this He denies it is foolishness for He knew His object in prayer so I will not comment on that. This most clearly in the last part alludes to His prayer in the Garden and so is self-explanatory, but why "day"? I also do not know, some say it was His prayer on the Cross, but in the Seven Words I do not clearly see it (perhaps it is this very one considering verses 20-22) But the point is this: no matter if He called or not He was going to undergo this curse, and did. So this is the second sense of "forsaken."
3 - "But I am a worm, and not a man; a reproach of men, and scorn of the people." After seeing how God delivered His forefathers He considers His situation on the Cross in this and the next verse, being reproached and mocked by those who saw Him. This happened in the Gospels. So it is the third sense of "forsaken."
4 - "For many dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked doers has beset me round: they pierced my hands and my feet." In this and the preceding verses He considers the trial (legal trial) He went through, His thirst on the Cross, and His Crucifixion itself. Perhaps also His other physical endurances since He mentions His strength being gone, such as His scourging, which certainly contributed to His dying before the others. So clearly these trials are themselves a fourth sense, specifying the third sense of "forsaken."

There is more to be said of the Psalm, other voices are present, and there is praise, and then the end result of the Gospel at the end: "And they shall report his righteousness to the people that shall be born, whom the Lord has made." Clearly this is us for we are born in Christ (baptism) and "made in Christ for good works" says St. Paul.

Anyway... prove that He died of a broken heart from the text.

 

[David in NJ]

In fact David, Jesus was with Him from the beginning as Jn 1:1 states. What is that beginning? The creation sir.

GOD and the WORD and the HOLY SPIRIT were BEFORE the Creation of ALL things.

In the beginning God = In the beginning was the WORD

ALL things created by the WORD and nothing that was created was created without HIM/the WORD.

 

[David in NJ]

You're imposing your belief that there are three persons in God onto this. God is a spirit (John 4:24), and He is holy. The working of His Holy Spirit is God (our heavenly Father) working.

Acts 4:

32) The multitude of those who believed were of one heart and soul. Not one of them claimed that anything of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common.
34) For neither was there among them any who lacked, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold,
35) and laid them at the apostles’ feet, and distribution was made to each, according as anyone had need.​

However, Ananias tried to deceive Peter, and held back some of the money that he and his wife had received. He was effectively lying to Peter, but God's Holy Spirit was working in Peter, and God revealed the deception to him. Hence Peter said, that Ananias was lying not to men but to the Holy Spirit that was in him, which means that he was lying to God.

And by lying to the HOLY SPIRIT you are lying to God and to the Son = THREE strikes your out and they DIED

 

[BarneyFife]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
John 1:3 Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[Wrangler]

John 1:3 Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

excepting him since he MUST have been made for all things to be made through him + being a son, we know he is created as all sons are created.

Don't forget the all important exception in Christianity's end game.


23 But this is how it will happen: the Anointed’s awakening is the firstfruits. It will be followed by the resurrection of all those who belong to Him at His coming, 24 and then the end will come. After He has conquered His enemies and shut down every rule and authority vying for power, He will hand over the Kingdom to God, the Father of all that is. 25 And He must reign as King until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last hostile power to be destroyed is death itself. 27 All this will happen to fulfill the Scripture that says, “You placed everything on earth beneath His feet.” (Although it says “everything,” it is clear that this does not also pertain to God, who created everything and made it all subject to Him.) 28 Then, when all creation has taken its rightful place beneath God’s sovereign reign, the Son will follow, subject to the Father who exalted Him over all created things; then God will be God over all.
1 Corinthians 15:23-28 (Voice)