I have a question that remains unanswered:

[Aunty Jane]

Good Morning Sassy Lady, How can Jesus lie??? How can He not tell the Truth???

He didn’t lie.....he always told the truth, and when referring to his God and Father he never once claimed equality.
John 17:3...”This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.”
The God of Jesus is “the only true God” and the one who sent him is the one who taught him everything he knew. Why is the Holy Spirit missing here? Do we not need to know “him”?

John 6:38.....Jesus said.....”for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.”
How can the will of the Father not also be the will of the son? (Luke 22:42)
The Father is, and always has been superior to his created Son. (Revelation 3:12, 14)

Jesus is called an “apostle” and a “High Priest.....he is also a “servant” of his God. (Hebrews 3:1; Acts 3:13) There is no scriptural support for your trinity because it is the most blasphemous doctrine that the devil ever invented through his minions in the RCC...a clear breach of the First Commandment. (Ex 20:3)

Your quoting the Greek here does not prove your case - read your Greek again - it proves Christ has both been with the Father and is with the Father - In the very midst of Father
the (one) ὢν being εἰς into τὸν the κόλπον bosom τοῦ of the πατρὸς Father

Do you even know what is meant by “the bosom” position?
This expression alludes to one’s reclining in front of another person on the same couch at a meal.

Guests reclined on their left side with a pillow supporting their left elbow, leaving the right arm free. Usually three persons occupied each couch, but there could be as many as five. The head of each one would be on or near the breast, or bosom, as it were, of the person behind him. The person with no one at his back was considered in the highest position and the one next to him in the second place of honor. In view of the nearness of the guests to one another, it was the custom that friend be placed next to friend, which made it rather easy to engage in confidential conversation if desired. To be in such a bosom position of another at a banquet was indeed to occupy a special place of favor with that one. So the apostle John, whom Jesus dearly loved, “was reclining in front of Jesus’ bosom,” and in such a position he “leaned back upon the breast of Jesus” and privately asked him a question at the celebration of the last Passover. (John 13:23, 25; John 21:20)

This has nothing to do with being “in the midst of the Father”.....it means being in a favoured position....that’s all.
It really helps to do your research instead of blindly believing what you have been told.
You don’t seem to do much research, which is a pity....all that sincerity going to waste.

Love God -All THREE of HIM - Father Son Holy Spirit

That is polytheism....there is no three of him.

Who told you that the Lord Jesus Christ did not have the Holy Spirit???

Jesus, like John the Baptist (and Isaac) was born by means of the operation of God’s Holy Spirit....But John was a Son of sinner Adam, whereas Jesus was a sinless “Son of God”.

The operation of the Holy Spirit however was not operative on Jesus, i.e. giving him supernatural abilities, until his baptism. Like Moses, who was also given the ability to perform supernatural feats in liberating Israel from Egypt, Jesus also used the power of God’s spirit to lead people out of another kind of slavery.....apostate Judaism.

In our day, he is again leading his disciples out of an apostate religious system....Christendom, with all her God-dishonouring doctrines. The “weeds” have spread about in all the earth, and Jesus is separating mankind as they respond to the preaching of the good news. (Matthew 24:14) His judgments will be final, so anyone hanging onto doctrines that are based on satanic lies will never gain entry into either the heavenly or earthly realms of God’s Kingdom. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Beware of the delusion that Paul spoke of....in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12.....delusions are not hallucinations....they are strongly held beliefs, but they are not based in reality...the deluded one is the last to know....once he finds out, he has to pray that it is not too late to change his thinking and ‘get out of Babylon the great’ post haste....(Revelation 18: 4-5)

We can only warn.....messengers have no power to convict anyone....only God can do that. (John 6:65)

 

[Wrangler]

He didn’t lie.....he always told the truth, and when referring to his God and Father he never once claimed equality.
John 17:3...”This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.”
The God of Jesus is “the only true God” and the one who sent him is the one who taught him everything he knew. Why is the Holy Spirit missing here?

This is one of 3 questions I asked Barney. Knowing he cannot support his doctrine, he abandoned the field while also claiming not to do so.

Allow me. The easiest way to defeat the trinity is to expose the non-existent "3rd" person. Every single Epistle's prologue acknowledges God, who is the Father of our master and Savior. Every single writer of the NT neglects to mention this non-existent "3rd" person in the prologue. The 'trinity' hides the real passion of the man-is-God thesis.

 

[David in NJ]

He didn’t lie.....he always told the truth, and when referring to his God and Father he never once claimed equality.
John 17:3...”This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.”
The God of Jesus is “the only true God” and the one who sent him is the one who taught him everything he knew. Why is the Holy Spirit missing here? Do we not need to know “him”?

John 6:38.....Jesus said.....”for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.”
How can the will of the Father not also be the will of the son? (Luke 22:42)
The Father is, and always has been superior to his created Son. (Revelation 3:12, 14)

Jesus is called an “apostle” and a “High Priest.....he is also a “servant” of his God. (Hebrews 3:1; Acts 3:13) There is no scriptural support for your trinity because it is the most blasphemous doctrine that the devil ever invented through his minions in the RCC...a clear breach of the First Commandment. (Ex 20:3)


Do you even know what is meant by “the bosom” position?
This expression alludes to one’s reclining in front of another person on the same couch at a meal.

Guests reclined on their left side with a pillow supporting their left elbow, leaving the right arm free. Usually three persons occupied each couch, but there could be as many as five. The head of each one would be on or near the breast, or bosom, as it were, of the person behind him. The person with no one at his back was considered in the highest position and the one next to him in the second place of honor. In view of the nearness of the guests to one another, it was the custom that friend be placed next to friend, which made it rather easy to engage in confidential conversation if desired. To be in such a bosom position of another at a banquet was indeed to occupy a special place of favor with that one. So the apostle John, whom Jesus dearly loved, “was reclining in front of Jesus’ bosom,” and in such a position he “leaned back upon the breast of Jesus” and privately asked him a question at the celebration of the last Passover. (John 13:23, 25; John 21:20)

This has nothing to do with being “in the midst of the Father”.....it means being in a favoured position....that’s all.
It really helps to do your research instead of blindly believing what you have been told.
You don’t seem to do much research, which is a pity....all that sincerity going to waste.


That is polytheism....there is no three of him.


Jesus, like John the Baptist (and Isaac) was born by means of the operation of God’s Holy Spirit....But John was a Son of sinner Adam, whereas Jesus was a sinless “Son of God”.

The operation of the Holy Spirit however was not operative on Jesus, i.e. giving him supernatural abilities, until his baptism. Like Moses, who was also given the ability to perform supernatural feats in liberating Israel from Egypt, Jesus also used the power of God’s spirit to lead people out of another kind of slavery.....apostate Judaism.

In our day, he is again leading his disciples out of an apostate religious system....Christendom, with all her God-dishonouring doctrines. The “weeds” have spread about in all the earth, and Jesus is separating mankind as they respond to the preaching of the good news. (Matthew 24:14) His judgments will be final, so anyone hanging onto doctrines that are based on satanic lies will never gain entry into either the heavenly or earthly realms of God’s Kingdom. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Beware of the delusion that Paul spoke of....in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12.....delusions are not hallucinations....they are strongly held beliefs, but they are not based in reality...the deluded one is the last to know....once he finds out, he has to pray that it is not too late to change his thinking and ‘get out of Babylon the great’ post haste....(Revelation 18: 4-5)

We can only warn.....messengers have no power to convict anyone....only God can do that. (John 6:65)

Aunt Sassy, i do not read this conglomerate of scripture that you post.
i keep telling you that it does not prove anything unless we go line by line, scripture by scripture on the SAME subject.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

You need to start in Genesis - one line at a time, while in prayer and submitting yourself unto God.

The heart is deceitful above all things,
And [desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
I, the Lord, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give every man according to his ways,
According to the fruit of his doings.

See - easy, i gave you one scripture for the Word Who was in the Beginning with God and was God. - easy

 

[BarneyFife]

Barney, you take things personally. AJ and I attack ideas not people. When your ideas are challenged you retreat into victimhood.

The truth is not kind to those living a lie,

Hopefully, you are not playing some kind of word game with @Robert Gwin.

This is one of 3 questions I asked Barney. Knowing he cannot support his doctrine, he abandoned the field while also claiming not to do so.

By the way, I do my best not to take things personally, but you sure don't mind making things personal, do you?

Every single writer of the NT neglects to mention this non-existent "3rd" person in the prologue.

Any particular reason they would need to mention Him in the prologue? We seem to just be making up the rules of hermeneutics as we go. God is not God unless He is fully described at the beginning of every epistle? What'll the requirements of your satisfaction be next?

Acts 5:1 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property.
Acts 5:2 With his wife's full knowledge, he kept back some of the proceeds for himself, but brought a portion and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Acts 5:3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and withhold some of the proceeds from the land?
Acts 5:4 Did it not belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How could you conceive such a deed in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God!"

Who is being talked about here? I checked the Greek and 45 different English versions and I don't think it can be legitimately argued that this can be referring to any other than the 3rd person of the Godhead.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Any particular reason they would need to mention Him in the prologue? We seem to just be making up the rules of hermeneutics as we go. God is not God unless He is fully described at the beginning of every epistle? What'll the requirements of your satisfaction be next?

Not to mention I personally think it is quite fitting that this be so (He not be mentioned like this), for it is "in the Spirit" that we come to approach the Lord or even know Him as Lord (1 Cor 12:3) or bear witness of Him (Acts 1:8), and the Scriptures are inspired through the Spirit in this way, so in our very act of finding the Lord in Scripture we are not leaving out the Holy Spirit. The Son always reveals the Father (Luke 10:22), so that once in the Spirit the Lord is approached then the Father is revealed. As Fr. Staniloae said in his perfect explanation of the Trinity, "the Spirit makes the Son brighter for the Father and the Father brighter for the Son," and He (the Holy Spirit) does this for us also. So this "leaving out" is not really leaving out and doesn't disprove the Trinity, but is the very manifestation of Trinitarian action in the world. Kind of a weird point to make that neglects our theology, and again doesn't disprove it.

John 16:12-15 is related to this great thing also.

[Video cited, use subtitles.]

 

[BarneyFife]

In which column does Jesus belong?​

 

[GRACE ambassador]

In which column does Jesus belong?​

Precious Barn, awesome! I also used this on a Precious JW. She thought an
"angel sent her to my front door!" Planted this seed, along with God's Gospel Of GRACE, and now just pray for her soul. Hope to see her there...

 

[keithr]

Jesus had to sacrifice his life as the redemption price for mankind, and return to the Father, in order that he could receive God's promised Holy Spirit and pour that out upon Christians (Acts 2:33).

Acts 2:33 does not say all that, and the Spirit coming upon Jesus does not mean He did not have it before that point.

I referenced Acts 2:33 in support of the last part of the sentence ("in order that...").

Acts 2 (WEB):

32) This Jesus God raised up, to which we all are witnesses.
33) Being therefore exalted by the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this, which you now see and hear.​

So verse 33 says that after Jesus had been resurrected by God (verse 32) he was exalted by God, and that he then received God's promise of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus then poured out on that day of Pentecost. It is God's Spirit, which God sends (John 14:26 [WEB] - "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and will remind you of all that I said to you"), yet Jesus pours it out - “When the Counselor has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will testify about me" (John 15:26 WEB). This is so that "that in all things he [Jesus] might have the preeminence" (Colossians 1:18).

So God's Holy Spirit came upon Jesus at Jesus' baptism, and stayed with him until his crucifixion, when at "About the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lima sabachthani?” That is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46). With the sins of all mankind placed on Jesus when he was on the cross, at that point God withdrew His Spirit. (Note Jesus said, "My God" - yet more evidence that Jesus is not God!)

Since his resurrection Jesus has been with God again, so he no longer needs to have God's Spirit upon him, but he now is working with God and is able to pour out God's Holy Spirit upon whom he chooses.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I think the name Robert is looking for in replies is "Jehovah".

Jehovah and LORD God are the same God.

You are correct Josh, Jehovah is God. Everywhere you see Lord in all capitals, is where Jehovah's name was found in the original writings of the Bible. So many are unaware of that sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Good Morning Sassy Lady, How can Jesus lie??? How can He not tell the Truth???

Your quoting the Greek here does not prove your case - read your Greek again - it proves Christ has both been with the Father and is with the Father - In the very midst of Father
the (one) ὢν being εἰς into τὸν the κόλπον bosom τοῦ of the πατρὸς Father

In fact David, Jesus was with Him from the beginning as Jn 1:1 states. What is that beginning? The creation sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Hello, Good Morning - i am having coffee soon so i will get back to you Friend -
Love God -All THREE of HIM - Father Son Holy Spirit

Jehovah my God is but one sir. His son is not Him, rather what the Bible says he is, His son.

 

[keithr]

On top of that St. Luke's Gospel in the first chapter proves Jesus had the Holy Spirit from His conception so it's really no debate to be had.

I notice that you didn't quote any Scriptures, just saying Luke 1. I don't see any references in that chapter which imply that Jesus had God's Holy Spirit upon or in him. In chapter 2, verse 40, it says, "The child was growing, and was becoming strong in spirit, being filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him". Still no mention of God's Holy Spirit yet. It's not until Jesus was baptised that the Holy Spirit is mentioned concerning him - Luke 3:21-22.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Who told you that the Lord Jesus Christ did not have the Holy Spirit???

Jesus was promised that he would receive holy spirit Dave. When he returned to heaven he presented his sacrifice to God, and God gave him the promised holy spirit Acts 2:33. In turn Jesus poured out that holy spirit on some of his disciples gathered, the birth of the Christian faith, under the new covenant he had offered them previously on the night of his death.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Not sure what you are speaking of, all that is in the passage is "I am that I am," "I am," "Yahweh/He Who Is," "God of your ancestors," and "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." I have already mentioned all of these things.

Yes sir Abax, I owe you an apology sir, I went back and read what you said, and you very correctly said Yahweh, which is His name of course. So sorry I didn't pick up on that, biasedly I thought you said Yeshua, which is Jesus, not Jehovah. Again my apologies, and a thumbs up for the correctness of your post sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I sincerely believe Jesus to be the first man to have received this breath of life at His baptism, other than the first Adam. John the Baptist referenced it as the Bride.


John 3:29 KJV
[29] He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.


crazy thing is the voice JtB heard came from heaven?

Jesus was the first to be baptized with holy spirit sir, but he was already alive. With that anointing, he became the Messiah at that point.

 

[Josho]

@Truman why does this thread feel like the Truman Show?

 

[keithr]

In which column does Jesus belong?​

Have you considered that there might be more than two columns?

 

[Truman]

@Truman why does this thread feel like the Truman Show?

Because people think too much! Lol

 

[Wrangler]

By the way, I do my best not to take things personally, but you sure don't mind making things personal, do you?

Still not an answer to my 3 questions.

It is not that I am making things personal but responding to you taking things personally. For instance, I asked 3 simple questions. Rather than answer them, you talk about yourself, your faith, your reason for being on these boards and so forth. So, you thereby change the subject under discussion and as I said, claim victim status when people like me or @Aunty Jane follow you as the subject.

I'm the opposite. In discussing and debating theological doctrine, people who have lost want to turn it about me. They ask if I am JW - or write as if I am. See Appeal to Diversion.

Any particular reason they would need to mention Him in the prologue? We seem to just be making up the rules of hermeneutics as we go. God is not God unless He is fully described at the beginning of every epistle? What'll the requirements of your satisfaction be next?

Yes, the particular reason is the very same that trinitarians rely on to uphold the significance of baptizing one in the name of ... If Apostles state over and over and over again that they act in the name of 2, it is silly to deny it supports acting on behalf of 3. That is, the Apostles were not trinitarians as their prologue tells us so. The Apostles believed in a monotheist God and accepted Jesus as his chosen suffering servant, known as the anointed, anointed by God.

Acts 5:1 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property.

Acts 5:2 With his wife's full knowledge, he kept back some of the proceeds for himself, but brought a portion and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Acts 5:3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and withhold some of the proceeds from the land?
Acts 5:4 Did it not belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How could you conceive such a deed in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God!"

Who is being talked about here?

A spirit is a WHAT not a WHO. For instance, the 'Spirit of '76' is referring to a WHAT. When Muhammad Ali got up at the count of 4 in the 15th round of his 1st fight with undefeated heavyweight champion, Joe Frazier, it was because of his spirit of competition. Ali is not a dual being, one who fights and the other with a spirit. Yet, Ali lied to his own spirit in denying he was defeated in that fight.

Now, pivoting to lying; I do not think people primarily lie to others - including God. They primarily lie to themselves. Indeed, it is incorrect to say in Acts 5:4 they have not lied to men. It's just language usage to emphasize the significance of lying to a greater authority. They lied to BOTH men and God.

 

[keithr]

Acts 5:3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and withhold some of the proceeds from the land?
Acts 5:4 Did it not belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How could you conceive such a deed in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God!"

... I don't think it can be legitimately argued that this can be referring to any other than the 3rd person of the Godhead.

You're imposing your belief that there are three persons in God onto this. God is a spirit (John 4:24), and He is holy. The working of His Holy Spirit is God (our heavenly Father) working.

Acts 4:

32) The multitude of those who believed were of one heart and soul. Not one of them claimed that anything of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common.
34) For neither was there among them any who lacked, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold,
35) and laid them at the apostles’ feet, and distribution was made to each, according as anyone had need.​

However, Ananias tried to deceive Peter, and held back some of the money that he and his wife had received. He was effectively lying to Peter, but God's Holy Spirit was working in Peter, and God revealed the deception to him. Hence Peter said, that Ananias was lying not to men but to the Holy Spirit that was in him, which means that he was lying to God.