I have a question... What is the Gospel of the Kingdom?

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Curtis

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Those who are the anointed that are born again do not enter the kingdom when they are baptized or anointed with Holy Spirit. It's those who are saved that get into the kingdom. The scriptures make it clear when it says at Matthew 10:22- "The one who has endured to the end will be saved.” The scriptures show that those who are born again, those who are anointed with God's Holy Spirit will be kings, priests and judges in that Messianic kingdom, but that doesn't happen until they are resurrected from the dead. So those who are the anointed they are anointed with God Holy Spirit, they are the ones who are called, God bears witness with his Holy Spirit to the individual spirit that God is calling them, they answer that call but they must be faithful to that call to the end to be saved.
The Messianic Kingdom is a heavenly kingdom and will remain a heavenly kingdom. Jesus will never again come with a body of flesh and rule on earth. He and the anointed will rule over earth from that heavenly messianic Kingdom. At John 14:19 Jesus said before he sacrificed himself that the world would see him no more. His Apostles and disciples would see him but not anyone else.
Being born again and saved are synonymous.

Believers have already been translated into the kingdom:

Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Those born again and saved are in His spiritual kingdom now, and as I said, after the rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4, and the receiving of our immortal bodies, we will be in His physical kingdom on earth.

JWs talk about the Holy Spirit, yet do not have Him indwelling in them, nor are the signs following them that Jesus said in Mark 16 will follow those who believe, of speaking in tongues and healing the sick.

The watchtower is a false prophet organization.
 

Aunty Jane

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Being born again and saved are synonymous.
Not every Christian needs to be "born again"...if you think that, then you have no idea what it means.

Believers have already been translated into the kingdom:


Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
What Kingdom is "the kingdom of his beloved Son", Curtis? Please explain what that Kingdom is.....is it "the kingdom of God" or "the Kingdom of the heavens"....or is it something else?

Those born again and saved are in His spiritual kingdom now, and as I said, after the rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4, and the receiving of our immortal bodies, we will be in His physical kingdom on earth.
What is the rapture? How does it happen, and when does it happen....and most importantly to WHOM does it happen?

JWs talk about the Holy Spirit, yet do not have Him indwelling in them, nor are the signs following them that Jesus said in Mark 16 will follow those who believe, of speaking in tongues and healing the sick.
The gifts of the spirit were a demonstration of things to come, otherwise we would not need hospitals, or doctors, or surgeons....we would just need a couple of healers in every hospital....did you realize that not a single believer experienced a miracle in the first century? It was for the unbelievers in order for them to know that God was with the disciples of Christ empowering them by his spirit. Even Paul said of those speaking in tongues, not to do so if there was no one to interpret. In speaking to some in the charismatic churches it seems that a lot of faking is done....no one wants to be seen as someone who does not have the spirit....as for the falling over stuff.....well that I believe is more emotionally induced than spirit induced. Where will I find "slain in the spirit" in the Bible?

Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach ailment.....if miracles were for the believers, then why would Paul not have healed him miraculously? (1 Timothy 5:23)

If it was true that all Christians could perform the same miracles as the ones seen in the first century, then no translation of the Bible would have been necessary as those who received the holy spirit could speak in the languages of the the people they preached to....they could heal the sick, its true....but the clincher...the one thing that the first century disciples could do that satan cannot mimic....is to raise the dead.....how many of those do we hear about? My goodness, no one who died would need to remain dead....like Lazarus, they would be brought back to life. (John 11:11-14) No grieving or tears...
Can you tell me why Jesus raised Lazarus if he was already in a better place? He died again later of some other cause.

The watchtower is a false prophet organization.
You can think that if you wish....but there are no false prophets in our brotherhood for the simple reason that no one claims to be a prophet or ever has. We are all looking forward to the fulfillment of the one prophesy that Jesus gave concerning his return to judge mankind and to restore theocratic rulership to this earth.....the one Adam and his wife threw away. We all long for the fulfillment of Revelation 21:2-4.....where mankind will get to enjoy the blessings of the kingdom.

You see, what God starts, he finishes. (Isaiah 55:11) God was the rightful Sovereign of mankind at the outset, but our first parents were tempted away from God's first purpose and lost it for themselves and their children......Jesus came to give it back, and the way he does that is by paying the debt that Adam left (by the sacrifice of his own life) and restoring God's original purpose which involved taking NO humans to heaven originally. But since it was going to take a thousand years to undo all the damage, God deemed it advantageous to select from among mankind those who would make up the heavenly government with his High Priest who would be ably assisted by other priests who would also be rulers, every single one of them has lived as a human, including Jesus....so they will be compassionate and supportive "kings and priests". (Revelation 20:6)....God's Kingdom is a fully functioning government. Only the "elect" get to be "born again" to life in heaven as spirit beings.....their subjects will be here on the earth, on terra firma, where God put us in the first place. This is where we were to live in paradise, and this is where those saved by Christ's sacrifice will enjoy life forever as God first intended. (Psalm 37:10-11, 29)
 

quietthinker

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@ Aunty Jane.....there is much I can say in response to your above post, however I'll only pick this snippet ....
did you realize that not a single believer experienced a miracle in the first century?
every single person particularly the gentile believers experienced the miracle of faith......and Paul, that nasty little man who had it in for any who professed Jesus name....a total turn around....is that not an exceptional miracle? and Peter and John who told the lame man to get on his feet?...but I won't go on expect to say, you make many comments of this nature which are just not true AJ.
 

Aunty Jane

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@ Aunty Jane.....there is much I can say in response to your above post, however I'll only pick this snippet ....

every single person particularly the gentile believers experienced the miracle of faith......and Paul, that nasty little man who had it in for any who professed Jesus name....a total turn around....is that not an exceptional miracle?
I was speaking about the gifts of the spirit QT, not the exceptions....but having said that......the conversion of Saul was a miracle but he was not at that time a "believer" as was evidenced by his bitter persecution of Christ's followers.....the miracle was however, enough to change his mind and heart. As I mentioned...that is what the first century miracles were for.

and Peter and John who told the lame man to get on his feet?...but I won't go on expect to say, you make many comments of this nature which are just not true AJ.
On reflection, nothing I say is based on assumptions.....I know my scripture QT....
The miracle you speak of was also performed on an "unbeliever"....Peter and John performed this miracle by the use of Jesus' name.
Acts 3:1-9...
"Now Peter and John were going up into the temple for the hour of prayer, the ninth hour, 2 and a man who was lame from birth was being carried. Every day they would put him near the temple door that was called Beautiful, so he could ask for gifts of mercy from those entering the temple. 3 When he caught sight of Peter and John about to go into the temple, he began asking for gifts of mercy. 4 But Peter, together with John, looked straight at him and said: “Look at us.” 5 So he fixed his attention on them, expecting to get something from them. 6 However, Peter said: “Silver and gold I do not possess, but what I do have is what I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·reneʹ, walk!” 7 With that he took hold of him by the right hand and raised him up. Instantly his feet and his ankles were made firm; 8 and leaping to his feet, he began walking and went with them into the temple, walking and leaping and praising God. 9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God."

By "unbelievers" I mean the Jewish unbelievers to whom Christ was sent....the ones he wanted to show that he was the Christ. By "unbelievers I didn't mean Gentiles, because they were not invited into the Christian arrangement till after the death of Christ. Jesus and his apostles preached exclusively to Jews at first. All of the first Christians were Jewish.
 

quietthinker

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The miracle you speak of was also performed on an "unbeliever"....Peter and John performed this miracle by the use of Jesus' name.
I'd say it is an assumption that he wasn't a believer.....but seeing you know your scripture, what can I say except, can you quote whole books verbatim like some of the religious folk Jesus addressed?
 

Curtis

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Not every Christian needs to be "born again"...if you think that, then you have no idea what it means.


What Kingdom is "the kingdom of his beloved Son", Curtis? Please explain what that Kingdom is.....is it "the kingdom of God" or "the Kingdom of the heavens"....or is it something else?


What is the rapture? How does it happen, and when does it happen....and most importantly to WHOM does it happen?



Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach ailment.....if miracles were for the believers, then why would Paul not have healed him miraculously? (1 Timothy 5:23)

If it was true that all Christians could perform the same miracles as the ones seen in the first century, then no translation of the Bible would have been necessary as those who received the holy spirit could speak in the languages of the the people they preached to....they could heal the sick, its true....but the clincher...the one thing that the first century disciples could do that satan cannot mimic....is to raise the dead.....how many of those do we hear about? My goodness, no one who died would need to remain dead....like Lazarus, they would be brought back to life. (John 11:11-14) No grieving or tears...
Can you tell me why Jesus raised Lazarus if he was already in a better place? He died again later of some other cause.


You can think that if you wish....but there are no false prophets in our brotherhood for the simple reason that no one claims to be a prophet or ever has. We are all looking forward to the fulfillment of the one prophesy that Jesus gave concerning his return to judge mankind and to restore theocratic rulership to this earth.....the one Adam and his wife threw away. We all long for the fulfillment of Revelation 21:2-4.....where mankind will get to enjoy the blessings of the kingdom.

You see, what God starts, he finishes. (Isaiah 55:11) God was the rightful Sovereign of mankind at the outset, but our first parents were tempted away from God's first purpose and lost it for themselves and their children......Jesus came to give it back, and the way he does that is by paying the debt that Adam left (by the sacrifice of his own life) and restoring God's original purpose which involved taking NO humans to heaven originally. But since it was going to take a thousand years to undo all the damage, God deemed it advantageous to select from among mankind those who would make up the heavenly government with his High Priest who would be ably assisted by other priests who would also be rulers, every single one of them has lived as a human, including Jesus....so they will be compassionate and supportive "kings and priests". (Revelation 20:6)....God's Kingdom is a fully functioning government. Only the "elect" get to be "born again" to life in heaven as spirit beings.....their subjects will be here on the earth, on terra firma, where God put us in the first place. This is where we were to live in paradise, and this is where those saved by Christ's sacrifice will enjoy life forever as God first intended. (Psalm 37:10-11, 29)

A. Jesus said you must be born again, of the spirit. Salvation is the new birth. Saved, born again, redeemed, regenerated, are all interchangeable terms.


1Pe 1:17 And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile,

1Pe 1:18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold,

1Pe 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.

1Pe 1:20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you

1Pe 1:21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

1Pe 1:22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart,

1Pe 1:23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Being saved and regenerated are the same thing, and the renewing of the Holy Spirit is done when anyone receives Jesus to become a son of God, John 1:12


Being born again is not an option to enter the kingdom:


Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


And unlike what the watchtower teaches, you’re either in the kingdom, or you are damned - when Jesus returns to Mount Olive in Zechariah 14:5 per the Acts chapter 1 prophecy of an angel, and sets up His eternal kingdom in Jerusalem, ruling from the throne of King David forever, everyone who belongs to the people of God will be with God and Jesus on earth, forever.

There will not be some in heaven and some on the earth.


B. The kingdom of God, kingdom of Christ, and kingdom of heaven are all the same thing.


For example, speaking to the rich young ruler, Christ uses “kingdom of heaven” and “kingdom of God” interchangeably. “Then Jesus said to his disciples, ‘I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven’” (Matthew 19:23). In the very next verse, Christ proclaims, “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God” (verse 24). Jesus makes no distinction between the two terms but considers them synonymous.


Mark and Luke used “kingdom of God” where Matthew used “kingdom of heaven” frequently in parallel accounts of the same parable. Compare Matthew 11:11-12with Luke 7:28; Matthew 13:11with Mark 4:11and Luke 8:10; Matthew 13:24with Mark 4:26; Matthew 13:31with Mark 4:30and Luke 13:18; Matthew 13:33with Luke 13:20; Matthew 18:3with Mark 10:14and Luke 18:16; and Matthew 22:2with Luke 13:29. In each instance, Matthew used the phrase “kingdom of heaven” while Mark and/or Luke used “kingdom of God.” Clearly, the two phrases refer to the same thing.


And the kingdom of God and kingdom of Christ are also interchangeable, Ephesians 5:5.


  • C: healing of believers in the first century church was common, and was promised, per James 5:13, where those sick in the church are told be prayed for and anointed with oil by the elders, and healed.

Christians don’t clear out hospitals for the same reason Jesus didn’t clear out the leper colonies that existed then, but instead let the leper’s with faith in Him as a healer, come to Him and ask Him to heal them.


Those with faith to be healed go to the elders in churches to be healed, or ask a Christian to come to them on an individual basis.


Jesus Himself could do few miracles in His own hometown because of their lack of faith in Him there.


Therefore you can’t just go around laying hands on everyone, as many aren’t believers or don’t believe healing is for today.


Jesus said believers shall lay hands on the sick and heal them, in Mark 16 - There’s no expiration date there - same with John 14:12 where Jesus said he who believes in Him shall do the same works He did.


C. Even though Jesus promised that believers in Him could do the same works He did, none of the apostles are recorded raising the dead as Jesus did.


That takes a tremendous amount of faith - and even the apostles had faith problems sometimes and were rebuked by Jesus for their lack of faith when they failed to heal someone - and Paul didn’t heal Timothy right away - yet in the last chapter of Acts, Paul healed all the sick on Malta.


Act 28:8 It happened that the father of Publius lay sick with fever and dysentery. And Paul visited him and prayed, and putting his hands on him, healed him.

Act 28:9 And when this had taken place, the rest of the people on the island who had diseases also came and were healed.


There are documented cases of Christians raising the dead today though, but not in dead, spiritless, semi-apostate churches - or Kingdom Halls, either.
 
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quietthinker

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could we have the dissertations to the left and the to the point straight answers to the right....thank you!
 

Aunty Jane

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I'd say it is an assumption that he wasn't a believer.....but seeing you know your scripture, what can I say except, can you quote whole books verbatim like some of the religious folk Jesus addressed?
Well think you QT....sour grapes is it now....:rolleyes:
No, I can’t quote whole books verbatim, but I do know my Bible enough to be sure of what I post.
The apostles did not heal each other, but used the gifts exclusively for their intended purpose...to draw people to the Christ.

The man in question was not expecting a miracle, but he was seeking financial aid or a gift from those going not the Temple. He sat there daily seeking help. (No disability pension poor bloke) He was not expecting what the apostles did for hm. I am sure that he became a believer after such an encounter.
Wouldn’t you?
 

quietthinker

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Well think you QT....sour grapes is it now....:rolleyes:
No, I can’t quote whole books verbatim, but I do know my Bible enough to be sure of what I post.
The apostles did not heal each other, but used the gifts exclusively for their intended purpose...to draw people to the Christ.

The man in question was not expecting a miracle, but he was seeking financial aid or a gift from those going not the Temple. He sat there daily seeking help. (No disability pension poor bloke) He was not expecting what the apostles did for hm. I am sure that he became a believer after such an encounter.
Wouldn’t you?
no sour grapes AJ
would I come back to thank him? hmmm, maybe, maybe not. Ten lepers where healed.....one came back to thank him! Where were all the folk Jesus healed at his crucifixion?
Would I have crucified Jesus? Would you have crucified Jesus?

In the story of the prodigal son, which of the two sons do you relate to?
 

Aunty Jane

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no sour grapes AJ
would I come back to thank him? hmmm, maybe, maybe not. Ten lepers where healed.....one came back to thank him!
Personally I could not have left without thanking him....that is not who I am.

Where were all the folk Jesus healed at his crucifixion?
Even the apostles scattered because of fear. Peter even denied knowing his Master three times.
Fear is a powerful thing, especially with a whipped up mob. Jesus knew and he did not condemn.

Would I have crucified Jesus? Would you have crucified Jesus?
Do you run with the mob? I never have. Do you remember when we used to go to the movies and stand for the National Anthem? I never would...and that was before I became a JW.

In the story of the prodigal son, which of the two sons do you relate to?
The son who never left....it was a bitter pill for him to swallow, but I can only hope that he came to forgive his brother for what he did to his father. And it really teaches us about forgiveness, doesn’t it? The father had to forgive them both.
 

quietthinker

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Even the apostles scattered because of fear. Peter even denied knowing his Master three times.
Fear is a powerful thing, especially with a whipped up mob. Jesus knew and he did not condemn.
There you go....and they all said they were prepared to die with him prior!
Little do we know ourselves. Unless we are kept by a power greater than ourselves we will stumble or do we rate ourselves in a better position than the disciples?
 

keithr

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An important part of Jesus' message about the Kingdom of God, is that we can become part of it, as priests and kings along with Jesus:

John 1:12 (WEB):
(12) But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God’s children, to those who believe in his name:​

Revelation 5:9-10 (WEB):
(9) They [the resurrected church] sang a new song, saying, “You are worthy to take the book, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and bought us for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation,
(10) and made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign on the earth.”​
or (ISV):
(10) You made them a kingdom and priests for our God, and they will reign on the earth."
 

Aunty Jane

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There you go....and they all said they were prepared to die with him prior!
Little do we know ourselves. Unless we are kept by a power greater than ourselves we will stumble or do we rate ourselves in a better position than the disciples?
Yes, fear is a powerful weapon as Paul said...
“Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly shared in the same things, so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil, 15 and that he might set free all those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death.“

Why do people fear death though? Is it because of what they have been taught to believe about the ‘afterlife’?
Are they afraid of going to hell? Or even unsure of what going to heaven means? Having a belief in life after death carries a great weight for many...yet the Bible does not speak of an immortal part of us that leaves the body at death to go somewhere else.

I believe that people fear death because we have no ‘program’ for it. It was never supposed to happen and so no one knows how to deal with something that feels so wrong...we fight to live, more so than any other sentient creature on earth. And yet those who believe we go to a better place still grieve, sometimes very deeply. If death was the natural consequence of living in mortal flesh on this earth, and death takes us to a better place, why did God not program us for it?

What are you thoughts on this? And how does the Kingdom of God the into this question?
 

Curtis

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yet the Bible does not speak of an immortal part of us that leaves the body at death to go somewhere else.

Yes, it does.

Before Jesus came and atoned for our sins, no souls of the dead could ascend to heaven - as it is written, the blood of sacrifices done under the law of Moses could not take away sins - so there were TWO compartments in the heart of the earth, in Sheol, that held souls of the dead.


(As John 3 said - which was before Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for souls to go to heaven - no one had ascended to heaven - at that time).


One compartment, called Abraham’s bosom, aka paradise, held all the souls of righteous dead.


It was separated by a great chasm from the torments compartment that the damned were put in, called Hell.


Jesus tells us about this in Luke 16 starting in verse 19.


When Jesus died His spirit descended into the heart of the earth, and He preached to those spirits held in captivity there:


1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and PREACHED unto the SPIRITS in PRISON.


Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, and gave gifts unto men.


Eph 4:9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also DESCENDED first into the LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH?


Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


When He rose from the dead he emptied out the paradise compartment and took those souls with Him, which is why many dead people also rose and went into the city, after His resurrection:


Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,


Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION , and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Now the souls those who die in Christ go to paradise in heaven, instead of paradise in Sheol.


John the revelator was caught up into heaven, and saw SOULS who were killed on earth, who were asking God how long until those who killed them are punished.


Rev 6:9 Then the Lamb broke open the fifth seal. I saw underneath the altar the SOULS of those who had been killed because they had proclaimed God's word and had been faithful in their witnessing.


Rev 6:10 They shouted in a loud voice, "Almighty Lord, holy and true! How long will it be until you judge the people on earth and punish them for killing us?"


Rev 6:11 Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the complete number of other servants and believers were killed, as they had been.


Their bodies are dead, they were killed on earth, yet they are in heaven having a conversation with God.


You think hell is the grave?


It’s not. It’s a place in the earth that holds conscious beings in it, so that every knee bows to Jesus on judgment day, even those in hell:


Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and THINGS UNDER THE EARTH.

Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither UNDER THE EARTH, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.


Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, AND UNDER THE EARTH and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I SAYING , Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.


Hell is a place that Jesus said was originally created for satan and his fallen angels. And the damned are cast into that same place of everlasting fire.


Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


Angels are spirits. Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering SPIRITS sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?


Spirits have no bodies to bury in the ground, so hell cant be the grave.


And the angels in hell aren’t sleeping either. They are conscious, which is why they are chained to prevent their escape.


Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting CHAINS under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the ANGELS that sinned, but cast them down TO HELL and delivered them into CHAINS of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Soul sleep dogma claims that the soul and body take a dirt nap at physical death, meaning the soul is buried in the ground along with the body, thus it SLEEPS there.


Not true. In 1 Kings, Elijah prayed three times for a dead boys SOUL to come back into his body. When his SOUL returned to his body again, the dead child was alive again. His soul wasn’t asleep with his dead body, it had LEFT and had to return.


1Ki 17:20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?

1Ki 17:21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's SOUL come INTO HIM AGAIN.

1Ki 17:22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the SOUL of the child CAME INTO HIM AGAIN and he revived.

1Ki 17:23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son LIVETH.


When Rachel was dying, her soul was departing.


Gen 35:18 And as her SOUL WAS DEPARTING (for she was dying), she called his name Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

Gen 35:19 So Rachel died, and she was buried on the way to Ephrath (that is, Bethlehem),
 

Curtis

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Paul was pretty clear in 2 Corinthians ch. 5 that our body is a HOUSE that we live in, that we leave at physical death.


2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly HOUSE of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.


2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are AT HOME IN THE BODY we are absent from the Lord:

2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY, and to be PRESENT with the Lord.


Our body is a house that we make our home in, until we die, then we leave our body and go to be with Jesus, if we are believers.


Philippians 1 confirms 2 Corinthians 5:


Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Php 1:22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell.

Php 1:23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

Php 1:24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.



When Stephen was stoned to death, he looked into heaven and saw Jesus, and said, Lord Jesus, receive my SPIRIT.


He expected to be absent from his body, and to be present with the Lord, right then, not later on after taking a dirt nap first.


Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

Act 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, RECEIVE MY SPIRIT


John the revelator was caught up into heaven, and saw SOULS there.


John the revelator was caught up into heaven, and saw SOULS there, asking how long until those who killed them are punished.


Rev 6:9 Then the Lamb broke open the fifth seal. I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed because they had proclaimed God's word and had been faithful in their witnessing.

Rev 6:10 They shouted in a loud voice, "Almighty Lord, holy and true! How long will it be until you judge the people on earth and punish them for killing us?"

Rev 6:11 Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the complete number of other servants and believers were killed, as they had been.


Their bodies are dead, they were killed on earth, yet they are in heaven having a conversation


In Acts 1 Jesus ascends from Mount Olive on a cloud up to heaven, and two angels say that the same Jesus will return in the exact way He left, meaning He will come back physically to Mount Olive.


In Zechariah 14:5 Jesus returns to Mount Olive, and brings ALL THE SAINTS WITH HIM. He brings the souls John saw in heaven back to earth.


Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the MOUNT OF OLIVES, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE.


In Thessalonians 4, Jesus comes to raise the dead bodies of the saints and reunite them with the souls He brings with Him from heaven.


Yes, when He returns for those bodies to raise from the dead, He at the same time brings the saints WITH HIM from heaven.


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING WITH HIM.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the DEAD in Christ shall RISE first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Soul sleep is wrong doctrine.


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren...
 

Aunty Jane

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An important part of Jesus' message about the Kingdom of God, is that we can become part of it, as priests and kings along with Jesus:

John 1:12 (WEB):
(12) But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God’s children, to those who believe in his name:​

Revelation 5:9-10 (WEB):
(9) They [the resurrected church] sang a new song, saying, “You are worthy to take the book, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and bought us for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation,
(10) and made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign on the earth.”​
or (ISV):
(10) You made them a kingdom and priests for our God, and they will reign on the earth."
It is important to understand that Russell and his associates were all of the anointed...all had a desire to go to heaven as the first Christians did. But greater understanding after Russell died allowed the anointed ones to see another group of “other sheep” (John 10:16) who would remain on earth to be governed by those who were to be their “kings and priests”.

The “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14, are seen to be survivors of the great tribulation here on earth, whereas the remaining ones of Christ’s “elect” (his “chosen ones”) are taken to heaven after the tribulation, but before Armageddon takes place.

Jesus said...in Matthew 24:21-22; 29-31....
“for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.”....

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.”

A “great crowd” had begun to be gathered and were refraining from getting baptised because they had no desire to go to heaven, and did not understand where they fitted into God’s arrangement....so at a convention held in 1935, J.F. Rutherford identified the “great crowd” (or “great multitude”) as those who were not going to heaven, but who would be ruled on earth by those who do. (Joined later by those of the second, or general reduction of the dead. John 5:28-29) These “other sheep” which were not of the heavenly fold were now identified as earthly subjects of the heavenly Kingdom.....and many presented themselves for baptism, now understanding where they belonged in the grand scheme of things.
 

ScottA

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Can you tell me what is the Gospel of the Kingdom, without talking about Jesus’ death and Resurrection? The Gospel of the Kingdom was being taught for 3 years before Jesus death! Remember Jesus said I was sent for this purpose. Most believe Jesus only came to die for our sins and nothing else matters… in fact this is the only gospel taught in most Churches today… but Jesus taught differently in Luke 4:43

Luke 4:42 When day came, Jesus left and went to a secluded place; and the crowds were searching for Him, and came to Him and tried to keep Him from going away from them. 43 But He said to them, "I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, for I was sent for this purpose."

Luke 8:1 Soon afterwards, He began going around from one city and village to another, proclaiming and preaching the kingdom of God. The twelve were with Him,

Luke 9:1 And He called the twelve together, and gave them power and authority over all the demons and to heal diseases. And He sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to perform healing.

Luk 18:31 Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things which are written through the prophets about the Son of Man will be accomplished. "For He will be handed over to the Gentiles, and will be mocked and mistreated and spit upon, and after they have scourged Him, they will kill Him; and the third day He will rise again." But the disciples understood none of these things, and the meaning of this statement was hidden from them, and they did not comprehend the things that were said.

John 20:9 For as yet they did not understand the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead.

Remember Jesus sent the twelve out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to perform healing… (Luke 9:1) all without understanding about His death on the cross for the sins of the world. Now After His Resurrection… we Read.

Act 1:3 To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.

Act 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"

Act 28:23 When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening.

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.

Act 28:30 And he stayed two full years in his own rented quarters and was welcoming all who came to him, preaching the kingdom of God and teaching concerning the Lord Jesus Christ with all openness, unhindered.

After Jesus’ resurrection, The apostles and now Paul are preaching the kingdom of God and now adding things or persuading the people concerning the Lord Jesus Christ

It is obvious that the death and the resurrection of Jesus are absolutely essential elements of the Gospel. But they are not the whole Gospel. What is misleading about contemporary evangelical tracks and systematic theology texts is that salvation is explained in terms only of the death and resurrection of Jesus, to the exclusion of his own preaching of the Kingdom.


Now my question: What did the twelve teach, before Jesus’ death? What message about the kingdom of God did they teach…? all the while not understanding that He must die and rise again from the dead?
That which is born of the spirit of God.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Being born again and saved are synonymous.

Believers have already been translated into the kingdom:

Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Those born again and saved are in His spiritual kingdom now, and as I said, after the rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4, and the receiving of our immortal bodies, we will be in His physical kingdom on earth.

JWs talk about the Holy Spirit, yet do not have Him indwelling in them, nor are the signs following them that Jesus said in Mark 16 will follow those who believe, of speaking in tongues and healing the sick.

The watchtower is a false prophet organization.

I believe that the kingdom is a real government just as Jesus is a real person. So I disagree that we are spiritually in his kingdom. Saying that you are spiritually in the kingdom sounds like something else that people say, "that the kingdom is in the hearts of men." The kingdom is a real government not some idea in the hearts of men.

I agree that because the Apostle Paul when writing to the Colossae congregation we all understand that Jesus Christ is our king and because of that there is already a kingdom, but that doesn't mean that the Apostle Paul or the other apostles or disciples were ruling in that kingdom at that time. When Jesus left this world as his disciples were looking on and Jesus Christ went into heaven in the presence of his Father not even at that time did Jesus himself start ruling in that kingdom. What that means however is that we do recognize the Only Begotten Son of God Jesus Christ as our king, not spiritually, but we recognize that he is actually our real King. While it is true that we are to be obedient to the laws of the nations as long as they don't contradict the laws of God, true Christians are no part of the wicked world we live in. True Christians don't take part in politics not even helping them to attain a political office. True Christians don't say, Heil Caesar or Heil Hitler. True Christians don't hold titles such as Reverend or Pope etc. We are all brothers and sisters, and even though we physically live in different nations we all belong to the True Christian Church that Jesus is head of and has Gods Holy Spirit. The true Christians recognize that the remnant of those born again on earth today are the remnant that will be in heaven with Jesus and will be kings, priests and judges with him at the time they are in heaven. Satan is the ruler of this wicked world we're living in and therefore he's the ruler of the nations. The true Christians king is Jesus Christ they are loyal to him and his born again brothers. For centuries Catholics and Protestants have interfere in politics, still do. The nations are going to be destroyed by the True God YHWH. True Christians are those who truly recognize Jesus as there king and the kingdom he's king of, true Christians are loyal to their king and the kingdom.

As far as Mark 16 that you speak of, I know you believe what the minority Scholars believe, but I believe what the majority of Scholars believe about Mark 16:9-20 which is that they're additions that came later and are not the inspired word of God that God inspired men to write down. I also believe what Jesus Christ said how you would recognize who are his true disciples are, which is stated at John 13:35. I don't believe John 13:35 applies to Catholic or Protestant Churches, they've fought and killed each other in the name of a human government or human kingdom. If they had recognized Jesus Christ as their king they would have stayed out of it. True Christians don't kill one another like Catholics and Protestants have done for centuries.

At 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, the Apostle Paul is talking about the resurrection not a rapture. I'm not going to take a scripture out of context.

What you think about Jehovah's Witnesses or the Watchtower I could care less about. Just as unbelievers persecuted Jesus saying he was demonic and a false christ the world of unbelievers will say th same about Jehovah's Witnesses.
 

Aunty Jane

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Soul sleep is wrong doctrine.
My goodness Curtis....what a waste of space you just took up....

You do understand that a "soul" cannot live without a physical body....the word "soul" in both Hebrew and Greek means a "living, breathing creature".....it is a living soul such as Adam was described when God put breath in his lungs. Adam was not given a soul, but "became" one. The soul dies when it ceases breathing and oxygenation of its cells ceases with it. Brain death is permanent...only reversible by holy spirit....that is called resurrection.....something completely different to an "immortal soul" which is what you are inferring by the scriptures you quoted......none of them pertain to an immortal soul. those two word do not occur side by side in a single passage of scripture....for a very good reason. There is no such thing.

Animals are called “souls” in the Bible and yet they are not promised eternal life in heaven.
Solomon even lamented the futility of humans dying the same death as animals....he said all “return to the dust".

"for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust." (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

Solomon also recognized what happens to a person at death....
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10...
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. . . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [sheol] where you are going."

Now you can't get plainer language than that. The ancient Jews had no belief in an afterlife....therefore the scriptures do not teach it and neither did Christ. The grave (sheol) was the end of life....the dead do not know anything and they have no emotions...even their "love" has "perished". Explain that to me.

All those scriptures you posted do not mean what you think they do....you are reading them only through your own lens.
 

quietthinker

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Yes, fear is a powerful weapon as Paul said...
“Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly shared in the same things, so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil, 15 and that he might set free all those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death.“

Why do people fear death though? Is it because of what they have been taught to believe about the ‘afterlife’?
Are they afraid of going to hell? Or even unsure of what going to heaven means? Having a belief in life after death carries a great weight for many...yet the Bible does not speak of an immortal part of us that leaves the body at death to go somewhere else.

I believe that people fear death because we have no ‘program’ for it. It was never supposed to happen and so no one knows how to deal with something that feels so wrong...we fight to live, more so than any other sentient creature on earth. And yet those who believe we go to a better place still grieve, sometimes very deeply. If death was the natural consequence of living in mortal flesh on this earth, and death takes us to a better place, why did God not program us for it?

What are you thoughts on this? And how does the Kingdom of God the into this question?
Our inheritance from Adam ensures that even the innocent die, babies for example....and not only humans but the whole created order on earth was lost dominion of and given to him who has the power of death.
Adam's choice reprogrammed himself and his progeny. God had never intended we terminate, however he did give Adam fair warning.

Yes, the Kingdom was lost through Adam our head and we through no choice of ours personally are landed with an oppression Adam never saw coming.....although, in the words 'you shall surely die' was embedded 'dying you will die'....we all know about that and the older we get the more obvious it becomes unless of course one has their eyes closed and marinates in denial under the banner of eyes open and 1003 theories primarily premised on some form of ascension....somehow (beats me how)
If my grandmother could come back as a worm (as the Tibetans believe) I don't know how they see the position of worm as one having ascended.....but the yada yada goes on basically believing, 'thou shalt not surely die' ...ole nicks favourite line.

Adam died emotionally the day he ate. I see this in the fact that he and his woman ran and hid from God their only friend. Where there was trust there now existed trepidation and fear....this too was passed onto their progeny. The physical side of themselves caught up with their emotional side later down the track....as it does with us.

What God did was give us a new head, a new representative who didn't fail. Inherent in this new head is the right to life as opposed to dying by default.
In Jesus is embodied God's Kingdom and those who trust God in this matter are being changed in their hearts....from hearts of stone without hope to the promise of hearts of flesh. It's an activity God performs on hearts who give him permission.

Here our hearts are renewed in his image and when Jesus returns the promise is for new bodies. I don't know about yours but mine is in need of replacement, so for me this hope is beyond magnificent.