I have difficulty believing that souls will be damned to the Lake of Fire

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amigo de christo

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This is what’s meant by the Disney World analogy. You haven’t experienced the ‘lake of fire’ that you’re talking about.
Yeah , but just cause i have not yet experienced something , DONT MEAN IF GOD SAYS IT , I DONT BELIEVE IT .
that is your problem . YOU SAY , But you should simply BELIEVE WHAT GOD SAYS .
I dont have to SEE THE PROOF of something to BELIEVE IT .
I never saw JESUS Rise from the dead . BUT I BELIEVE HE DID .
I dont have to see the lake of fire to know tis real . I KNOW IT IS , CAUSE GOD SAID IT .
BELEIVE IN GOD , not your mind , not what men try and say . BELIEVE WHAT GOD has said .
 

amigo de christo

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YE beleive because YOU SAW ME thomas .
JESUS rebuked his own for NOT BELIEVING the reports of others who had seen HIM RISE .
HE even tells thomas STOP BEING FAITHLESS .
I dont have to SEE the lake of fire or anything Written and inspired by GOD . I JUST BELIEVE .
I simply BELIEVE as a child . IF GOD SAID IT , ITS REAL and ITS TRUE . Praise GOD for His mercy and grace
given us in JESUS CHRIST . We dont need PROOF , we dont need signs to believe , BY GRACE WE JUST BELIEVE .
IF GOD said IT , BELIEVE IT . see how simple faith truly is . IF GOD said it believe it . IF GOD said DO , DO
IF He said not to do , DO NOT DO . its real simple . AND GOD , CHRIST , both warned of a lake that burns with fire .
JUST as we are given the PROMISE of eternal life in JESUS . IF GOD SAID IT , BELIEVE IT . PEROID .
 

-Phil

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Yeah , but just cause i have not yet experienced something , DONT MEAN IF GOD SAYS IT , I DONT BELIEVE IT .
that is your problem . YOU SAY , But you should simply BELIEVE WHAT GOD SAYS .
I dont have to SEE THE PROOF of something to BELIEVE IT .
I never saw JESUS Rise from the dead . BUT I BELIEVE HE DID .
I dont have to see the lake of fire to know tis real . I KNOW IT IS , CAUSE GOD SAID IT .
BELEIVE IN GOD , not your mind , not what men try and say . BELIEVE WHAT GOD has said .
I don’t have a problem with beliefs. I’m just saying, like Disney World, beliefs about aren’t quite the same as the actuality.
 

amigo de christo

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the problem with the carnal mind is , it believes whatever makes sense to it .
But the born again in CHRIST , now they BELIEVE TRUTH . they believe what GOD INSPIRED .
They dont need proof and experience in order to believe . THEY simply believe .
The carnal mind cannot grasp the truth . IT always make complex , always learning but never able to come to the truth .
I say , Simply BELIEVE in GOD , HIS CHRIST and learn the truth in those bibles .
Lest ye be converted as children ye shall in no wise enter into the Kingdom of GOD .
COME YE TO THE TRUE JESUS , BE CONVERTED and HE shall heal you . A new heart shall be given .
A heart that omits not the truth , but rather embraces the truth . A heart that BELIEVES , lives and loves every WORD of the glorious LORD .
Many men and women follow their own carnal mind . very dangerous that is . And many a shcolar
has taught them through carnal wisdom . they are ever learning but never able to come to the truth .
Rather the carnal mind and their teachers are leading them only farther and farther away from HE who could have saved them
and given them a new heart .
 

amigo de christo

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I don’t have a problem with beliefs. I’m just saying, like Disney World, beliefs about aren’t quite the same as the actuality.
The lake of fire will be far worse place than even our own minds can grasp .
But i dont need to know every specific about it . TRUTH is , I JUST NEED TO KNOW CHRIST
and i will never see it . THAT IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME .
 

amigo de christo

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We don't have a right to instruct God. If we choose not to believe His Word, that is our choice.

Our loving Heavenly Father has given every man the measure of faith. (Romans 12:3) It is our choice whom we will serve. He has done everything short of forcing us to serve Him.


Deuteronomy 30:19-20
[19]I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
[20]That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Joshua 24:15
[15]And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

2 Corinthians 6:1-2
[1]We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
[2](For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Ezekiel 33:11
[11]Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


Pay careful attention to John 3:18-19 below. This is where Jesus Himself defines "the condemnation." It can be noted that the word translated "condemnation" in the KJV, in the Greek, also means "judgment, damnation, or accusation."

John 3:14-19
[14]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
[15]That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[16]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17]For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[19]And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

2 Peter 3:9-14
[9]The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
[10]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[11]Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[12]Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

[13]Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
[14]Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Matthew 10:28
[28]And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
exactly sister . FOR WHO has been the COUNSLER OF GOD . NONE . NOBODY . amen sister . ALL
we need to do is BELIEVE . BELIEVE IN HIM , BELIEVE IN CHRIST JESUS , BELIEVE ALL THINGS He did teach . BELIEVE the
TRUTH OF SCRIPTURES . That is right . WHO on earth do we THINK WE ARE to question the ALMIGHTY GOD .
Your spot on right sister . SPOT ON RIGHT . Now lift those hands and let the LORD be praised .
 

Ronald David Bruno

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I'm confident that even Hitler, Stalin, and Mao loved someone. Based on the verse below, is it possible that they are not and will not be destroyed?​

1 John 4:7 ESV​

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.
Not all are "born of God and know God".
Jesus made it clear: "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36
You are with Him or not.
But I too have always had reservations about eternal damnation.
It comes down to the key word, (aionios), which is translated as eternal or everlasting. But this word has variable meanings pertaining to the realm of which it is describing. When it us used in reference to God and His domain, it means eternal. But when referring to a temporal realm, like earth, and Hades (which is in the earth), it is also temporal. So then it should be interpreted as generations, ages, lifetimes, epochs. The word everlasting should then be age-lasting or age-during. A key scripture that uses the same word but has different variable meanings (and the scholars knew this) is:
Matthew 25:46
KJV And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Now about a dozen translations use “everlasting” when referring to the (unbelievers, the reprobate, the damned) and then eternal for the (chosen elect, the Church, believers).
The rest of the 50 translations use eternal for both, which I think is wrong.

YLT - And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

The other misconception is that Hades is Hell. The Lake of Fire is Hell. Hades and death, along with all the unbelievers (in Hades), Satan, the Antichrist and his horde, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed. (Rev. 20:13-14 "And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."

So then you have to define what death is. It is the end of physical life and spiritual life. Then define destruction/ perishing. You can't destroy something over and over forever. Paper is burned in seconds in a fire. A body is incinerated when it is cremated in minutes. So eternal destruction doesn't make sense, it would be an indestructible destruction or imperishable perishing. It's contradictory.
"And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28
Besides, why would God sustain billions of souls in a state of torment forever? It does not glorify him. He is merciful even to these lost souls and so their punishment is finite. Nowhere in scripture do we see God's punishment not fair. It was temporal and porportunate to the sin. It could have lasted moments, weeks, years, and centuries - but it always ended. You don't put a child in prison for life for stealing a candy bar, nor does God cause a teenager who died from a life of crime, drugs, sin _ even murder, to suffer eternal torment
 
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-Phil

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The lake of fire will be far worse place than even our own minds can grasp .
But i dont need to know every specific about it . TRUTH is , I JUST NEED TO KNOW CHRIST
and i will never see it . THAT IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME .
But not having experienced it, the lake of fire is a belief, like a unicorn. It is what the mind can grasp.
Again though, no implication here that there is anything wrong with beliefs.
If that’s good enough for you, great.
But stating things about the belief as if it were true is somewhat misleading.
 
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amigo de christo

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But not having experienced it, the lake of fire is a belief, like a unicorn. It is what the mind can grasp.
Again though, no implication here that there is anything wrong with beliefs.
If that’s good enough for you, great.
But stating things about the belief as if it were true is somewhat misleading.
I am simply BELIEVING what is written in the bible . cause IT IS TRUE .
The truth aint what we think or beleive it to be or not to be . ITS what GOD says . His every Word is TRUTH .
 

Ronald David Bruno

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How many me’s you thinkin there are?
Sorry, there are no "mes" in that scripture, I misquoted it, paraphrased it.
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36
 
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-Phil

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I am simply BELIEVING what is written in the bible . cause IT IS TRUE .
The truth aint what we think or beleive it to be or not to be . ITS what GOD says . His every Word is TRUTH .
Do you see the contradiction?
You’re saying that you’re believing (what is written), and stating the Truth is not what we believe.

What is written in the Bible isn’t The Truth, it is writing. What is written in the Bible points you to The Truth, as do I, and The Truth is unbelievable. if you prefer to believe what’s written and forgo the greatest adventure possible, of discovering The Truth of yourself, for yourself, as yourself, I have no problem with that. But alas, the suffering doth persist needlessly in the meantime.

Sorry, there are no "mes" in that scripture, I misquoted it, paraphrased it.
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36
‘Everlasting life’ - as in no beginning and no end. Birth would be a beginning, and in truth there is no actual direct experience of birth. Death would be an end, and in truth there is no actual direct experience of death. Life is indeed everlasting. Beliefs only obscure, or veil the Truth of its-everlasting-self. It should come as no surprise honesty is directly related to Truth.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Do you see the contradiction?
You’re saying that you’re believing (what is written), and stating the Truth is not what we believe.

What is written in the Bible isn’t The Truth, it is writing. What is written in the Bible points you to The Truth, as do I, and The Truth is unbelievable. if you prefer to believe what’s written and forgo the greatest adventure possible, of discovering The Truth of yourself, for yourself, as yourself, I have no problem with that. But alas, the suffering doth persist needlessly in the meantime.


‘Everlasting life’ - as in no beginning and no end. Birth would be a beginning, and in truth there is no actual direct experience of birth. Death would be an end, and in truth there is no actual direct experience of death. Life is indeed everlasting. Beliefs only obscure, or veil the Truth of its-everlasting-self. It should come as no surprise honesty is directly related to Truth.
You are caught up in some mystical abstract way of thinking THAT IS NOT ANYTHING RELATED TO FUNDAMENTAL CHRISTIANITY.
You said: "Truth can only be experienced", "What is written in the Bible isn't Truth"; "Beliefs only obscure or veil the truth"; " The Lake of Fire is a belief like a unicorn", etc.

In another thread I asked you how you can call yourself a Christian unless yiu BELIEVE that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead on the third day according to the scriptures? And you response was: "I am". Jesus claimed that, but you are not God, you are not the universe, you are not one with everything around you.
You don't trust in beliefs and you weren't there to experience His death so what relationship do you have with God?

Your way if thinking sounds like it came from some Ashram in India led by a Yogi named Sadhguru. If it is, you have been deceived by this guy or whomever you are following. Sadhguru, while practicing yoga and meditation, sat on a rock in 1982 and had this "spiritual enlightenment about himself that he was part of the rock, the air, the environment! This guy will lead you to the Lake of Fire and you will become one with it. Basically you are getting these thoughts from a different source - not the Bible. And as I told you in other threads, Christians won't swallow any of what you are pushing.
Jesus, nor the Bible teaches us this way of thinking that is out there on a limb in the Twilight Zone.
Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Truth, means reality. He is what is real. "In Him all things consist". He taught us to believe in Him and you are saying beliefs in Him obscure the truth which is false. .
It is true that our beliefs about Jesus differ sometimes, we get it wrong, mis- interpret the texts. But He is the focus. We believe who He is, God, and that the Bible is the word of God. Since it is from God, it is truth. Practice Jesus way of thinking, think His thoughts - stay away from these Gurus who think they are spiritually enlightened.
 

-Phil

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You are caught up in some mystical abstract way of thinking THAT IS NOT ANYTHING RELATED TO FUNDAMENTAL CHRISTIANITY.
You said: "Truth can only be experienced", "What is written in the Bible isn't Truth"; "Beliefs only obscure or veil the truth"; " The Lake of Fire is a belief like a unicorn", etc.
So to speak, exactly like you, I am aware of thoughts. Thus it is self evidant that I can not be ‘in’, or “caught up in” thoughts or ”ways of thinking”.

Has it been noticed ‘there’ yet, that “thinker” is a thought, and not a ”second“ or “separate entity”?

What I‘m sharing is most fundamental. As fundamental as could be. Ineffably, infinitely, eternally, unconditionally, fundamental.
Before Abraham etc, prior to any thoughts or beliefs, - I am!
Pure spontaneous freedom!
Rejoice!
I am!

In another thread I asked you how you can call yourself a Christian unless yiu BELIEVE that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead on the third day according to the scriptures? And you response was: "I am". Jesus claimed that, but you are not God, you are not the universe, you are not one with everything around you.
I am. Calling ‘myself’ anything is hysterical!
I am myself!
This belief, that belief - still - I am!

You don't trust in beliefs and you weren't there to experience His death so what relationship do you have with God?
Trust is not ‘in’ perception (seeing, hearing, etc) nor ‘in’ sensation… trust is a belief, a thought, a concept.
Before “trust” - I am!


Your way if thinking sounds like it came from some Ashram in India led by a Yogi named Sadhguru.
There is no “your way of thinking”. The experience of thought is direct. There is no experience of “other’s thinking”. There isn’t even an experience of “I’m thinking”, nor even of “thinking”.

Thinking - is a thought.
Thoughts come & go, appear & disappear, are and are not, such as awake and asleep, life & death, me and you, etc - these are all thoughts!


But - I am!

If it is, you have been deceived by this guy or whomever you are following.
I don’t know or follow these people you keep mentioning.

Sadhguru, while practicing yoga and meditation, sat on a rock in 1982 and had this "spiritual enlightenment about himself that he was part of the rock, the air, the environment! This guy will lead you to the Lake of Fire and you will become one with it. Basically you are getting these thoughts from a different source - not the Bible. And as I told you in other threads, Christians won't swallow any of what you are pushing.
Jesus, nor the Bible teaches us this way of thinking that is out there on a limb in the Twilight Zone.
Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Truth, means reality. He is what is real. "In Him all things consist". He taught us to believe in Him and you are saying beliefs in Him obscure the truth which is false. .
It is true that our beliefs about Jesus differ sometimes, we get it wrong, mis- interpret the texts. But He is the focus. We believe who He is, God, and that the Bible is the word of God. Since it is from God, it is truth. Practice Jesus way of thinking, think His thoughts - stay away from these Gurus who think they are spiritually enlightened.
There’s no such thing as someone “having spiritual enlightenment about himself”.
That reveals a complete and utter ignorance of what enlightenment means or points to.
“I” am “getting” lol “these thoughts” from the only Source that Is -
I am!

No one is asking any one to “swallow” (believe) anything!

Beliefs are the only obscuring of Truth - I am!

You’re Free to believe whatever thoughts you want to believe. There’s nothing wrong with that!
I’m just pointing out that in direct experience - ‘they’re’ thoughts! Beliefs!

What is The Truth?
Well, it’s not any beliefs!
I am!
 

-Phil

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the problem with the carnal mind is , it believes whatever makes sense to it .
But the born again in CHRIST , now they BELIEVE TRUTH . they believe what GOD INSPIRED .
They dont need proof and experience in order to believe . THEY simply believe .
The carnal mind cannot grasp the truth . IT always make complex , always learning but never able to come to the truth .
I say , Simply BELIEVE in GOD , HIS CHRIST and learn the truth in those bibles .
Lest ye be converted as children ye shall in no wise enter into the Kingdom of GOD .
COME YE TO THE TRUE JESUS , BE CONVERTED and HE shall heal you . A new heart shall be given .
A heart that omits not the truth , but rather embraces the truth . A heart that BELIEVES , lives and loves every WORD of the glorious LORD .
Many men and women follow their own carnal mind . very dangerous that is . And many a shcolar
has taught them through carnal wisdom . they are ever learning but never able to come to the truth .
Rather the carnal mind and their teachers are leading them only farther and farther away from HE who could have saved them
and given them a new heart .
There’s no such ‘thing’ as a “carnal mind” - “it”, is as experienced - a thought!
 
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-Phil

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You are caught up in some mystical abstract way of thinking THAT IS NOT ANYTHING RELATED TO FUNDAMENTAL CHRISTIANITY.
You said: "Truth can only be experienced", "What is written in the Bible isn't Truth"; "Beliefs only obscure or veil the truth"; " The Lake of Fire is a belief like a unicorn", etc.

In another thread I asked you how you can call yourself a Christian unless yiu BELIEVE that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead on the third day according to the scriptures? And you response was: "I am". Jesus claimed that, but you are not God, you are not the universe, you are not one with everything around you.
You don't trust in beliefs and you weren't there to experience His death so what relationship do you have with God?

Your way if thinking sounds like it came from some Ashram in India led by a Yogi named Sadhguru. If it is, you have been deceived by this guy or whomever you are following. Sadhguru, while practicing yoga and meditation, sat on a rock in 1982 and had this "spiritual enlightenment about himself that he was part of the rock, the air, the environment! This guy will lead you to the Lake of Fire and you will become one with it. Basically you are getting these thoughts from a different source - not the Bible. And as I told you in other threads, Christians won't swallow any of what you are pushing.
Jesus, nor the Bible teaches us this way of thinking that is out there on a limb in the Twilight Zone.
Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Truth, means reality. He is what is real. "In Him all things consist". He taught us to believe in Him and you are saying beliefs in Him obscure the truth which is false. .
It is true that our beliefs about Jesus differ sometimes, we get it wrong, mis- interpret the texts. But He is the focus. We believe who He is, God, and that the Bible is the word of God. Since it is from God, it is truth. Practice Jesus way of thinking, think His thoughts - stay away from these Gurus who think they are spiritually enlightened.
Just try to notice, make some effort if you will... That you deflect & project over & over.

You ignore what’s being said… and start talking about Me! Lol!

It’s like you don’t even know Me!!!

I AM!
 

Wrangler

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I love scriptural responses so thank you! With that said, I still have difficulty believing that our loving and merciful creator would send anyone to an eternity of suffering.
Agreed. @Aunty Jane has the analysis of how this is a myth of Christendom.

Brother Kel on youtube has a video that analyzes the text to show it has been interpretted incorrectly. In short, he says Judgment Day will have eternal consequences for all. It does not mean that those elect are eternally resurrected in a glorified body. It happens once. Same with damnation.

It is a contradiction to say an all-loving and merciful God will condemn people to suffer, eternally tormented. It is called the second death, is it not?
 
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