I have my doubts that Catholicism is Christianity

[Hiddenthings]

Understood by whom? If the Word is God's reason, as you say, then you must believe that God's reason became flesh, that God's reason was God, that God's reason created all things. In John 1, we read all those things about the Word.

Correct, Revelation 13:8 says, "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."


But David, this isn’t meant to be taken literally. It simply means that the Lamb existed in the mind and purpose of God (Logos) from the beginning. It wasn’t realized until Jesus was first given mortal life, and then later rewarded with eternal inheritance.


Unless, of course, you believe Jesus always possessed that inheritance? Surely not!!!

Well, I was answering what you claimed, that Jesus Christ became the Son of God after the resurrection. That is why I quoted words of Jesus Himself spoken before the resurrection in which He answers the high priest's question, "Are You the Son of God?" in the affirmative. I didn't avoid Romans 1, but quoting Romans 1 wouldn't answer the point you made about Christ only becoming the Son of God after the resurrection. I imagine you were thinking of this:

“and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.” (Ro 1:4 NKJV)

But that verse doesn't say that He became the Son of God by the resurrection, but that He was declared to be the Son of God by the resurrection. Long before the resurrection, even the demons recognised His sonship:

Exactly, once Jesus received the divine nature and was fully conformed to the perfect image of His Father, he could rightly be declared the Son of God with power.


If you can't recognize the distinction, then it's time to study to show yourself approved unto God, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

I'm trying to help you but the resistance is not helping you.

“And demons also came out of many, crying out and saying, “You are the Christ, the Son of God!” And He, rebuking them, did not allow them to speak, for they knew that He was the Christ.” (Lu 4:41 NKJV)

Well, Christ's own testimony, long before His resurrection, was that God was His Father, and He was the Son of God. Think of His interaction with Martha, the sister of Lazarus:

Let me ask you this.

How many times Does Jesus call himself the Son of Man? 78 Times

How many times Does Jesus call himself the Son of God? _____________

Now I am not saying Jesus was not the Son of God while in the flesh, I'm saying he did not become the Son of God in nature and with power until after his resurrection.

This is true according to the Word of God.

“Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. “And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”” (Joh 11:25-27 NKJV)

He didn't reprimand her and say, "You are wrong. I am not the Son of God yet. I will only become the Son of God after my Resurrection."

Why do you think Jesus didn't mention his Sonship more than you might have imagined?

Think carefully about this question David!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Oh dear! You do seem to have some strange beliefs. Do you belong to an unusual group that teaches these things?

Yes, Bible truth may seem strange to those who don’t possess it. But you do realize the Kingdom is of Heaven—not in Heaven, right? Its origin is from Heaven, but it’s intended to be established on earth.

I find it a little amusing to watch those who hold this false belief try and prove it. It's a terrible teaching. You are what I call a fully-fledged traditional Christian. You have all the notions one would expect from orthodox Christianity.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@David Lamb If I can provide a summary of our conversation.

If you don’t believe that Jesus was granted eternal life, then you also deny any real distinction between Jesus in the flesh and the resurrected, glorified Jesus.

I believe these matters may now stir a sense of unrest for you, now that you've come to understand the truth of Scripture. Each time you read of the Lord's nature, struggling in anguish as he overcame sin in the flesh, you’ll be reminded of this conversation. And when you read of the resurrected Jesus, ascending to Heaven in divine nature, you'll recall the contrast: His former limitations in mortal flesh as God triumphed through him on the earth.

May God guide you into all truth on these important matters concerning His Son.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@David Lamb did it disturb you to discover how only once, possibly twice Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God? You see this was the test wasn't it, David? Would the Son of Man overcome sin's flesh and break the power of its temptation? Can you see why the Lord used these words now?

Luke 12:50 "I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how great is my distress until it is accomplished!"

It's the word agony. Why was Jesus in constant agony until the day of his agony?

What I’ve come to see is that your understanding of Jesus differs from how the Scriptures consistently present him. It seems you hold to a kind of hybrid god-man concept, whereas the Bible reveals a man who fully shared our nature, tempted in every way as we are, yet without sin.

If we examined your view more closely, it appears you believe that Jesus could not have sinned, that he didn’t truly die, and that he was not granted Life by His Father.

These beliefs, if held, would ultimately place someone outside the saving work found in the name of Christ.

 

[David Lamb]

@David Lamb did it disturb you to discover how only once, possibly twice Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God? You see this was the test wasn't it, David? Would the Son of Man overcome sin's flesh and break the power of its temptation? Can you see why the Lord used these words now?

It doesn't disturb me at all. Whether He Himself said it, or others said it, whether He said the exact words, "I am the Son of God," or said the same thing in different words, like calling God the Father "My Father," which He does 57 times, matters not.

Luke 12:50 "I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how great is my distress until it is accomplished!"

It's the word agony. Why was Jesus in constant agony until the day of his agony?

What I’ve come to see is that your understanding of Jesus differs from how the Scriptures consistently present him. It seems you hold to a kind of hybrid god-man concept, whereas the Bible reveals a man who fully shared our nature, tempted in every way as we are, yet without sin.

I agree that the bible teaches He shared our nature, was tempted in every way as we are, yet without sin. I don't agree that it's a sort of hybrid. He was fully God. He did things that only God can do. Remember how the Jews asked, "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" He was also fully man. He cried, He ate and drank, He was tempted, He suffered, and so on.

If we examined your view more closely, it appears you believe that Jesus could not have sinned, that he didn’t truly die, and that he was not granted Life by His Father.

I don't believe that Jesus didn't truly die. That was the whole purpose of the Incarnation. As God, He could not die. He took on human flesh so that He could die as the perfect sacrifice for His people.

These beliefs, if held, would ultimately place someone outside the saving work found in the name of Christ.

I do not agree, if you are saying that we have to believe that Jesus was not fully God and fully Man.

 

[Hiddenthings]

It doesn't disturb me at all. Whether He Himself said it, or others said it, whether He said the exact words, "I am the Son of God," or said the same thing in different words, like calling God the Father "My Father," which He does 57 times, matters not.

Once again, it seems you’re missing the underlying reason why Jesus seldom referred to himself as the Son of God. Shifting the focus now feels like an indication that your position may be losing strength. There’s no need to elaborate further, I believe you've made your stance clear.

I agree that the bible teaches He shared our nature, was tempted in every way as we are, yet without sin.

The Bible clearly teaches that Christ fully shared our nature, there’s no indication of him having any other.

And respectfully, we both know there’s no scriptural basis for the concept of hypostasis as it’s often presented, so let’s not force something that isn’t there. It tends to weaken the conversation rather than strengthen it.

I don't agree that it's a sort of hybrid. He was fully God.

As we have already shown he could not be if God gave him Life. You are still yet to grasp with truth!

He did things that only God can do. Remember how the Jews asked, "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" He was also fully man. He cried, He ate and drank, He was tempted, He suffered, and so on.

He did things a sinless man could do you mean. Once again you are unable to discern the uniqueness of Christ

I don't believe that Jesus didn't truly die.

I know, you can't!

That was the whole purpose of the Incarnation. As God, He could not die. He took on human flesh so that He could die as the perfect sacrifice for His people.

I do not agree, if you are saying that we have to believe that Jesus was not fully God and fully Man.

It's a concept in your mind, one which you cannot demonstrate with Bible evidence.

David, this is how the doctrines of men are typically framed, rooted in creed language, shaped by philosophical thinkers centuries after Christ had already taught the truth plainly.

This is why you cannot articulate the difference between the Son of Man and the Son of God with Power and blessed with Divine nature at his resurrection.

If you had Scripture, we could discuss these matters, but you don't.

 

[David Lamb]

Once again, it seems you’re missing the underlying reason why Jesus seldom referred to himself as the Son of God. Shifting the focus now feels like an indication that your position may be losing strength. There’s no need to elaborate further, I believe you've made your stance clear.

I obviously haven't made myself clear to you. I said (I thought clearly) that Jesus refers to His Sonship in various ways, not just by calling Himself the Son of God, but by saying that He had come down from heaven, that God is His Father, etc.

The Bible clearly teaches that Christ fully shared our nature, there’s no indication of him having any other.

Yes there is. He said "I and My Father are one." Also, He said, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." Colossians says of Him:

“For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;” (Col 2:9 NKJV)

And respectfully, we both know there’s no scriptural basis for the concept of hypostasis as it’s often presented, so let’s not force something that isn’t there. It tends to weaken the conversation rather than strengthen it.



As we have already shown he could not be if God gave him Life. You are still yet to grasp with truth!



He did things a sinless man could do you mean. Once again you are unable to discern the uniqueness of Christ

Christ is unique in being fully God and fully Man.

I know, you can't!

No of course I can't believe that Jesus didn't really die. The bible makes quite clear that He did.

It's a concept in your mind, one which you cannot demonstrate with Bible evidence.

David, this is how the doctrines of men are typically framed, rooted in creed language, shaped by philosophical thinkers centuries after Christ had already taught the truth plainly.

This is why you cannot articulate the difference between the Son of Man and the Son of God with Power and blessed with Divine nature at his resurrection.

If you had Scripture, we could discuss these matters, but you don't.

Alright, if you believe I don't have Scriptures to back up what I believe, despite me referring to Scripture in every post, then I can see why you feel that way.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I obviously haven't made myself clear to you. I said (I thought clearly) that Jesus refers to His Sonship in various ways, not just by calling Himself the Son of God, but by saying that He had come down from heaven, that God is His Father, etc.

It's clear why Jesus didn't claim Sonship like you first thought though I get the impression you do not want to explore those truths.

Yes there is. He said "I and My Father are one." Also, He said, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." Colossians says of Him:

One in mind and purpose David - like I said you cannot prove duality of nature. Christ is only ever spoken of as being in our nature completely.

“For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;” (Col 2:9 NKJV)

How can you prove Paul is speaking to the New Creation in Christ Jesus - post resurrection and Son of God with Power?

Try!

Christ is unique in being fully God and fully Man.

No, David - you cannot prove this, and you know it!

No of course I can't believe that Jesus didn't really die. The bible makes quite clear that He did.

No David, you can't believe he died and cease to exist because you believe he is a god-man!

Alright, if you believe I don't have Scriptures to back up what I believe, despite me referring to Scripture in every post, then I can see why you feel that way.

I'm still waiting for you to show me this hybrid nature.

Here is my first verse

17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. Heb 2:17.

Verse 14 states he had flesh and blood nature!

No different to you David! And for good reason which is hidden from you for the moment.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@David Lamb the verse you wish not to discuss, is Romans 1 but happens to be the verse which teaches you the true nature of Christ - both past and present!

3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord Ro 1:3–4.

From sin's flesh, to the highly exalted Son of God with Power having been granted Divine nature by his Father.

You cannot discern the difference from the descendant of David in the flesh and the Glorified Christ.

That's a sad place to be David.

 

[David Lamb]

It's clear why Jesus didn't claim Sonship like you first thought though I get the impression you do not want to explore those truths.

It's not that I don't want to explore biblical truths. Rather, it is that I find in your posts so many teachings that seem to go against what Scripture clearly teaches about Jesus Christ, and about other things too. Although this part of the discussion has been mainly between me and you, I am sure I am not the only one here who believes as I do. I am sure that somebody else who believes in Jesus Christ as fully God and fully Man is more able than I at explaining those beliefs biblically. I have tried, but not succeeded.

One in mind and purpose David - like I said you cannot prove duality of nature. Christ is only ever spoken of as being in our nature completely.


How can you prove Paul is speaking to the New Creation in Christ Jesus - post resurrection and Son of God with Power?

Try!


No, David - you cannot prove this, and you know it!


No David, you can't believe he died and cease to exist because you believe he is a god-man!

Who said anything about "ceased to exist?" As fully Man, He died. I believe it. As God, He could not die.

I'm still waiting for you to show me this hybrid nature.

Here is my first verse

17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. Heb 2:17.

Verse 14 states he had flesh and blood nature!

No different to you David! And for good reason which is hidden from you for the moment.

I never mentioned "hybrid"; that's your word. The bible says that Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb by the action, not of a man, butof the Holy Spirit:

“Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.” (Lu 1:34-35 NKJV)

That seems hidden from you at the moment.

 

[David Lamb]

@David Lamb the verse you wish not to discuss, is Romans 1 but happens to be the verse which teaches you the true nature of Christ - both past and present!

3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord Ro 1:3–4.

From sin's flesh, to the highly exalted Son of God with Power having been granted Divine nature by his Father.

You cannot discern the difference from the descendant of David in the flesh and the Glorified Christ.

That's a sad place to be David.

But as I have just said in my other reply to you, His human nature came via Mary, but she became pregnant, not by coming together with Joseph, but by the action of the Holy Spirit:

“Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.” (Lu 1:34-35 NKJV)

 

[Hiddenthings]

It's not that I don't want to explore biblical truths. Rather, it is that I find in your posts so many teachings that seem to go against what Scripture clearly teaches about Jesus Christ, and about other things too.

It's actually the contrary.

You’ve denied that God gave Jesus eternal life—yet Scripture plainly affirms that He did.
You’ve also rejected the clear teaching that the work of the saints is on earth, instead insisting on a heaven-going narrative not supported by the text.
And you've denied that Jesus truly died, fully and completely, and was later raised to incorruptible life. The Bible is clear: He was in the grave for three days and then raised, immortal and victorious over sins flesh.

Although this part of the discussion has been mainly between me and you, I am sure I am not the only one here who believes as I do. I am sure that somebody else who believes in Jesus Christ as fully God and fully Man is more able than I at explaining those beliefs biblically. I have tried, but not succeeded.

You can't succeed because the Bible is silent on such teaching.

Who said anything about "ceased to exist?" As fully Man, He died. I believe it. As God, He could not die.

You see! As God he could not die - In one sentence you removed God's victory over our nature. It must have been a show a mascaraed but the truth is far from this.

I never mentioned "hybrid"; that's your word. The bible says that Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb by the action, not of a man, butof the Holy Spirit:

True - conception though born of a woman in our nature.

“Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.” (Lu 1:34-35 NKJV)

That seems hidden from you at the moment.

He was a real human being, flesh and blood, living in a mortal, aging, corruptible body. He was fully under the dominion of death, just like you and me, no different.

These facts are hidden from you.

 

[Hiddenthings]

But as I have just said in my other reply to you, His human nature came via Mary, but she became pregnant, not by coming together with Joseph, but by the action of the Holy Spirit:

“Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.” (Lu 1:34-35 NKJV)

Show me a verse which speaks to duality of natures.

Provide evidence that shows Christ had flesh and blood nature and Divine Eternal nature in the same body.

I'm still waiting

 

[David Lamb]

Show me a verse which speaks to duality of natures.

Provide evidence that shows Christ had flesh and blood nature and Divine Eternal nature in the same body.

I'm still waiting

Many of the things Jesus Christ said and did whilst on this earth are things that only God could say or do, forgiving sins, knowing precisely what people were thinking, raising the dead, and His claim in John 14:6:

"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one come to the Father except through Me."

For a mere man to say such things he would have to be a megalomaniac.

 

[amigo de christo]

View attachment 62757

The time for following budda kissing men , koran kissing men
this entire RCC and PROSTESTANT MERGED interfaith junk , MUST COME to an end .
It tis time for all who name the name of CHRIST to depart from such wicked places and pratices . its of anti christ
and has come pumping its anti christ lie as a solution to attain PEACE N SAFETY .
SEE THEM TWO Words
PEACE N SAFETY and notice its solutoin to attain this in the world Cometh of an anti christ lie .
SO lets look again real closely at them last two words . PEACE N SAFETY .
And then know and understand ITS HIGH TIME to get out of or support in any way these places
FOR when they shall say PEACE N SAFETY , ..... tick , tick , tick , BAM THEN SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh upon
them all and they WILL NOT ESCAPE . The hour draws nigh .

 

[Hiddenthings]

Many of the things Jesus Christ said and did whilst on this earth are things that only God could say or do, forgiving sins, knowing precisely what people were thinking, raising the dead, and His claim in John 14:6:

"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one come to the Father except through me."

For a mere man to say such things he would have to be a megalomaniac.

And the reason it is though Jesus is because he is the one God granted Life - the first fruits of them that sleep and the firstbegotten from the dead.

He is the first to be raised immortal and now lives for evermore!

This is the true Original Gospel whereas the one you hold was formulated in councils of men.

This is why you cannot provide one verse in support of Hypostasis, not one!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Many of the things Jesus Christ said and did whilst on this earth are things that only God could say or do, forgiving sins,

Who gave Jesus the authority to forgive sins? (Luke 5:24).

While it is true that only God can forgive sins (Isaiah 43:10–11, 25, 27; Daniel 9:9), Yahweh has the power to delegate that authority as seen in Exodus 23:20–21

Exodus 23:20–21 Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared.
21 Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him.

On what basis could Jesus forgive sins?

Because as you say he was God? Or, because he was sinless and undefiled before men and was given this authority from His God and Maker?

 

[Hiddenthings]

@David Lamb Who gave Jesus this authority on earth to forgive sins?

Try John 5:30 to start with and let's build on this shall we?

 

[Hiddenthings]

@David Lamb allow me to show you.

But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the man who was paralyzed—“I say to you, rise, pick up your bed and go home. Luke 5:24

This text alone should concern you David...why does your God need authority to do anything?

I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. John 5:30

And Jesus came and said to them, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me Matthew 28:18

For as the Father has life in himself, so he has GRANTED the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man John 5:26-27

“Since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. John 17:2

Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified. Acts 2:36

Now David, I could go on and on listing these quotes and we both know the same message will present time and time again.

Your understanding and beliefs actually limit God and the authority He provided His Son.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@David Lamb the reason he was called the Son of Man was due to him being the representative of mankind, but they knew him not as this! John 12:34

So the crowd answered him, ‘We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?

It's the same question you need to ask! you need to find the answer for yourself.