I have my doubts that Catholicism is Christianity

[NotTheRock]

What if you are holding the wrong Gospel and teaching it ignorantly? Is ignorance a sound excuse?

What I discuss here isn't necessarily what I discuss in the world. Most people don't know or care about theology. I keep it simple but also (hopefully) inspiring. For example, I share with many that God once thought of them, created them, and has big plans for them in his future Kingdom. I encourage them to talk to our Heavenly Father and to follow his son, Jesus. I rarely engage in theology with people in the world.

 

[NotTheRock]

"Heaven going", is a teaching which was developed by Irenaeus, Origen, and Augustine 2nd - 4th century. It has no basis in the Hope of the Gospel, so I questioned what Scripture do you base this belief on?

I base my belief that my biological father is in Heaven in part on verses such as John 3:16.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I base my belief that my biological father is in Heaven in part on verses such as John 3:16.

Although that mentions nothing of Heaven going after one dies.

 

[Hiddenthings]

What I discuss here isn't necessarily what I discuss in the world. Most people don't know or care about theology. I keep it simple but also (hopefully) inspiring. For example, I share with many that God once thought of them, created them, and has big plans for them in his future Kingdom. I encourage them to talk to our Heavenly Father and to follow his son, Jesus. I rarely engage in theology with people in the world.

I understand as today is a godless world and few know the Father or His Word.

 

[NotTheRock]

Although that mentions nothing of Heaven going after one dies.

Where else would a faithful follower of Christ be sent after death?

 

[NotTheRock]

I understand as today is a godless world and few know the Father or His Word.

Do you believe in forever punishment, aka "Hell"?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Where else would a faithful follower of Christ be sent after death?

The grave - "dust you are and dust you shall return"

It perplexes me how people think they have an immortal soul.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Do you believe in forever punishment, aka "Hell"?

The permanency of the grave is given a lot of metaphoric expression in the Word of God.

 

[Hiddenthings]

You don't know if a commonly held belief is false until you are asked to prove it.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 But test everything; hold fast what is good.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

It perplexes me how people think they have an immortal soul.

Those ignorant of God's Word and void of the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ wouldn't know that man was created by God in God's Image and since God never dies, neither shall any man - it's simply a matter of where they shall spend eternity

No reason for anybody to accept Jesus and get born again if they don't believe they have a immortal soul right?

Note: while all spirits are immortal, the only Spirit Who is eternal, as in "without beginning or end", is God

Correct, but once a man is created b y God in God's Image, the man will never cease to exist going forward

 

[Hiddenthings]

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: as the spirit [soul] shall return to God Who gave it" (Ecc. 12:7)

This is really poor exegesis and I mean really poor!

I could have chosen any one of your references and happy to deal with all if you require!

It's actually rather amusing watching people force this terrible doctrine on the Word of God

Firstly, the passage does not differentiate between "good" and "bad" spirits.

If the spirit returns to God, it must have originally come from Him. But who would argue that a person has a conscious existence before their earthly life begins? Likewise, there is no solid reason to expect a conscious existence after death.

The Hebrew word for "spirit" (ruach)—used in Ecclesiastes 3:19 and translated as "breath" is the same for both humans and animals. Can anyone reasonably claim that animals possess, or are, immortal spirits?

The author of Ecclesiastes strongly emphasizes the mortality of humanity. Consider passages such as Ecclesiastes 9:5–6, 10 and 3:19–20, which make it clear that both humans and animals return to the dust and have no awareness in death.

Further to this if you can provide a Biblical (literal) example of an ethereal essence leaving a body and ascending Heavenward, I'm really eager to see that!

Enjoy!

Immortality is sought and not in your possession! Romans 2:7

 

[Hiddenthings]

Those ignorant of God's Word

You have more than shown this to be the case!

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

This is really poor exegesis and I mean really poor!

That's rich coming from someone who doesn't even know God's Word or the Lord!

You have more than shown this to be the case!

Everyone is welcome to have their own opinion, even erroneous ones!

No real Christian believes man does not have an immortal soul.

What a crock of cat smack!

If the spirit returns to God, it must have originally come from Him. But who would argue that a person has a conscious existence before their earthly life begins? Likewise, there is no solid reason to expect a conscious existence after death.

Wow! You are very badly confused and misinformed.

You are embarrassing yourself broman

 

[Hiddenthings]

That's rich coming from someone who doesn't even know God's Word or the Lord!







Everyone is welcome to have their own opinion, even erroneous ones!

No real Christian believes man does not have an immortal soul.

What a crock of cat smack! View attachment 66017







Wow! You are very badly confused and misinformed.

You are embarrassing yourself broman

If anything, consistent

 

[Hiddenthings]

As I said, in Gen. 2:7, we read, "God formed the man of dust of the earth [...]". What are bones? A proof of the power of God Who made man with dust, but nothing else. Therefore, it's the physical body that returns to dust (Gen. 3:19, Ecc. 3:20). In addition to having a physical body, within it is our spiritual and immortal soul: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: as the spirit [soul] shall return to God Who gave it" (Ecc. 12:7);"They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit [soul]!'” (Ac. 7:59). A spirit, such as the soul, is incorporeal (Lk. 24:39), which means it isn't subject to the limits of physical death, and thus is immortal [Note: while all spirits are immortal, the only Spirit Who is eternal, as in "without beginning or end", is God].

You just ignored my reply, which conclusively proved your reference to Eccles 12:7 is misinterpreted.

By their fruits you shall know them!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Dust + Breath of Life = A Living Soul (Person)

Same formula for animals!

Ecclesiastes 3:19 "For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity."

@Origen everything you have written can be undone by this one verse!

So, in nature we have no advantage over the animals!

The only different is we have the ability of morally reasoning, right from wrong.

 

[Hiddenthings]

You didn't quote my reply, and instead claimed I didn't reply at all.

"By their fruits you shall know them". Indeed.

It seems that none of my points were addressed (#652), which is quite telling. It gives me some insight into the kind of believer you are and how you approach discussion.

 

[Hiddenthings]

As I said, in Gen. 2:7, we read, "God formed the man of dust of the earth [...]". What are bones? A proof of the power of God Who made man with dust, but nothing else. Therefore, it's the physical body that returns to dust (Gen. 3:19, Ecc. 3:20). In addition to having a physical body, within it is our spiritual and immortal soul: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: as the spirit [soul] shall return to God Who gave it" (Ecc. 12:7);

This has been dealt with in a previous post!

"They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit [soul]!'” (Ac. 7:59).

Now lets deal with this mess!

If the real Stephen were merely a spirit, then who is the "he" referred to in verse 60, which says he "fell asleep"? The personal pronouns are consistently applied to the body, not to something residing within it. This usage of language challenges and ultimately undermines the idea that Stephen’s true self was an immortal essence separate from the body.

"Sleep" is a scriptural term used to describe the unconscious state of death, with the clear implication of a future awakening at the Resurrection. This is supported by strong biblical evidence, see John 11, especially verses 11, 14, and 24; along with Daniel 12:2 and 1 Corinthians 15:6, 18. The statement that Stephen "fell asleep" indicates that he did not go immediately to his reward, a point further confirmed in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–16.

If your first two points are already shown to be mistaken, what will we find when we examine the rest of your argument more closely?

As I said your exegesis is terrible and the notions you force on the Word lacks evidence.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Ecc. 3:19 is about how animal-man and animal-brute both live and will undergo physical death, hence the part where it says "as one dies, so dies the other". This fact doesn't undo the other fact that only animal-man are made in the image and likeness of God, and given dominion over the animal-brutes (Gen. 1:26-28). Gen. 2:7 reads that God "[...]breathed upon his face the breath of life [...]". The act of having "breathed the breath of life upon" indicates giving man something. In Jn. 4:24, we read, "God is Spirit", and thus the "breath of life" is the breath of God which is the soul [a spirit], the soul as life. It is the breath of the Spirit of God that becomes a living spirit in man: God's image and likeness (Gen. 1:26). This wonderful thing which is a soul, a thing created by God to give man His image and likeness as an unquestionable sign of His Most Holy Paternity, shows signs of the qualities characteristic of Him Who creates it. It is therefore intelligent, spiritual, free, immortal, and so on, like the Father Who created it. That's why we have reason and morality and they don't. Therefore, animal-brutes don't and couldn't have a soul [spirit] that animal-man has.



I did address points that you made. If you decide to quote and reply to my responses, I'll be here.

Ha - you spin what you want when you want it!

Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where the word "breath" is used to describe a person as immortal or as possessing immortality? And if there is a literal example in Scripture of an immortal spirit departing to heaven, I would appreciate it if you could provide that as well.

Everything you have written (too much!) is just your false notions upon the Word without any textual evidence.

Don't write copious volumes of your false understanding - just give me the Scripture which you think supports your teaching.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Origen If you truly believe that Lazarus died, went to heaven, and was then brought back to earth to re-enter his body, then you are seriously mistaken.

Acts 2:29 Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

And what's wrong with David that he remained in the grave?

O that's right he never expected anything more than the grave and to be raised out of it one day.

Psalm 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol (grave) who will give you praise?"

Psalm 30:9 "What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it tell of your faithfulness?"

Psalm 115:17 "The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence."

I could go on, but doing so would only further highlight how unfounded and manmade your teaching truly is.