I suspect that the "Great White Throne Judgment" as described in Revelation is only imagery rather than an event

[St. SteVen]

The above is my response to the OP

I'm house-sitting while the owner is away. - LOL

 

[Timtofly]

In fact 2/3 of the total population of man will die and 1/3 will be saved.

According to Revelation 100% of humanity will physically die. I doubt 33% of current humanity has received the second birth into God's family. It would be nice if 90% of humanity repented in sackcloth and ashes like Nineveh. Then the whole final harvest would be unnecessary. Most everyone would be waiting for the Second Coming in obedience to God.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Is it possible that that day of judgment is actually referring to the return of Christ?

I take it to be so.

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

I think it's clear, the judgment will be held on the last day. And we are told the resurrection will happen on the last day as well.

John 6
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

What day do you think comes after the last day?

Rev 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[JunChosen]

Our physical bodies, yes. However, I believe our souls immediately go to Heaven or Hell. I don't believe in "soul sleep". Jesus didn't soul sleep and neither does anyone else, or so I believe.

Good deductions, Watson. Yes, there is also no such thing as "soul; sleep."

Curious as to how you arrived at this percentage.

The 2/3 and 1/3 percentage is tedious work and can be found in the Book of Daniels.

And what do you mean by "saved"?

We are either saved from our sins or from the Wrath of God which is to come.

To God Be The Glory

 

[JunChosen]

What day do you think comes after the last day?

"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." (paraphrased)

The first day after the last!!!

To God Be The Glory

 

[St. SteVen]

We are either saved from our sins or from the Wrath of God which is to come.

Did Jesus die to save us from God?

 

[Behold]

Did Jesus save us from God?

Not from God.
But from the eternal judgment due for sin...

Jesus's Cross removes this following verse.... when we believe and are born again.

John 3:36

It also saves us from this..

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

 

[JunChosen]

Who sez, YOU??? As always you are in error! Oh, I forgot, you follow a different Gospel from that of the Bible. Any way I suggest you should read and learn John 5:24-29.

No! All people who are in the tomb will be resurrected (John 5:29).

I'm the one who gave you John 5:29, and you dare throw it back at me?

Someone ought to teach you how to find and read Scripture!!!

To God Be The Glory

 

[St. SteVen]

JunChosen said:

Who sez, YOU??? As always you are in error! Oh, I forgot, you follow a different Gospel from that of the Bible. Any way I suggest you should read and learn John 5:24-29.

No! All people who are in the tomb will be resurrected (John 5:29).

I'm the one who gave you John 5:29, and you dare throw it back at me?

Someone ought to teach you how to find and read Scripture!!!

To God Be The Glory

Are you arguing with yourself? - LOL

 

[BlessedPeace]

@St. SteVen

We're told that when we die we are judged. I believe it is immediate. Why and how would we then appear at a later judgment, aka the "Great White Throne Judgment"?

I think John was given imagery of people being judged by Christ rather than an actual event wherein ALL people who ever lived are all judged at the same time.

I think we die and that most go to Heaven and some go to Hell.

Thoughts?

My reading of Revelation would indicate we are judged well after death.

In the meanwhile we sleep. Or as some consider that, we are in a mid-place like paradise, until the later judgement

 

[St. SteVen]

My reading of Revelation would indicate we are judged well after death.

And not just individuals.
Nations and leaders as well.

 

[JunChosen]

Did Jesus save us from God?

You decide....read and weep:

1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

To God Be The Glory

 

[BlessedPeace]

You decide....read and weep:

1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

To God Be The Glory

I've heard it said in some Bible study circles that the God of the OT is not the same God as of Jesus.
That the OT God-god(?) was an evil god that killed, destroyed the unborn, children, and so forth. And cursed humanity to fear and serve him.

Jesus was sent by the higher God to save the cursed who serve the good God.
And this is one reason Jesus would refer to, my God and your God. To differentiate between the two.

Is that your premise in that post?

 

[ewq1938]

@St. SteVen

We're told that when we die we are judged. I believe it is immediate.

It's never immediate. Rev 20 shows two judgments, separated by a thousand years and the earliest one is at the second coming timeframe.

 

[St. SteVen]

You decide....read and weep:

1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

To God Be The Glory

Not sure if that is a "Yes.", or "No." answer to the question: Did Jesus die to save us from God?

 

[No Pre-TB]

"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." (paraphrased)

The first day after the last!!!

To God Be The Glory

I believe the context does not mean to die = go immediately to heaven. “I’d rather….be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord”. Wouldn’t we all?

 

[BlessedPeace]

It's never immediate. Rev 20 shows two judgments, separated by a thousand years and the earliest one is at the second coming timeframe.

Where does it say they are separated by 1000 years?

 

[St. SteVen]

Where does it say they are separated by 1000 years?

I'm guessing that is a reference to the Millennium. But I'll let @ewq1938 answer that for sure.
Eschatology is NOT my strong suit.

 

[ewq1938]

Where does it say they are separated by 1000 years?

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs who come back to life. Even the Amill scholar Barnes believes not only is there a judgment here but also states it is these dead martyrs that are being judged and there is only one judgment for them, eternal life!



John sees two groups of people/souls:

1. people sitting on thrones and judgment given to them
2. souls of the tribulation martyrs who instead of remaining dead are said to live with Christ

Claiming 1 and 2 are the same group doesn't make any sense. Those judging are not the second group mentioned. It can only be that second group of martyrs that were being judged and the judgment has to be a resurrection to life which we know is the reward for the dead in Christ.



We see the same event in Daniel:

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.


Here are multiple thrones and God the Father himself sitting there.


Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.


And here again judgment is mentioned and a large group standing before him. This must be the dead in Christ being judged to life because it cannot apply to the unsaved because the beast hasn't yet been slain:


Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


This beast of course is also seen in Rev 19 being destroyed at the return of Christ. What we then have been given is a judgment of a group before the beast is destroyed so that group must be the saved being judged to eternal life as we also see in Rev 20.

Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

And just like it is for the thousand years, some "beasts" (the wicked/unsaved/and satan himself) have their lives prolonged. Indeed during the thousand years satan and many unsaved gentiles of the world's nations will live through the thousand years.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs who come back to life. This is a judgment and resurrection of only the saved. The unsaved are judged at a later time and at a later resurrection: "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" so clearly AFTER the Millennium is when these are resurrected and judged.


Another example of the righteous being judged separately from the wicked:


Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Here we again have judgment of the righteous first! No wicked are being judged with the righteous.


Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Christ does not address time in this but according to Rev 20, there is a period of time inbetween the judgment of the dead in Christ vs. the rest of the dead so we know there is time inbetween these two judgments. Even in human courts there is no such concept of judging someone a reward while judging someone to death. That happens at different times. The two don't belong in one court judgment.


1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

As you can see, the righteous are judged FIRST. Judgment starts with "us" as Peter confirms.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs who come back to life. Even the Amill scholar Barnes believes not only is there a judgment here but also states it is these dead martyrs that are being judged and there is only one judgment for them, eternal life!



John sees two groups of people/souls:

1. people sitting on thrones and judgment given to them
2. souls of the tribulation martyrs who instead of remaining dead are said to live with Christ

Claiming 1 and 2 are the same group doesn't make any sense. Those judging are not the second group mentioned. It can only be that second group of martyrs that were being judged and the judgment has to be a resurrection to life which we know is the reward for the dead in Christ.



We see the same event in Daniel:

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.


Here are multiple thrones and God the Father himself sitting there.


Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.


And here again judgment is mentioned and a large group standing before him. This must be the dead in Christ being judged to life because it cannot apply to the unsaved because the beast hasn't yet been slain:


Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


This beast of course is also seen in Rev 19 being destroyed at the return of Christ. What we then have been given is a judgment of a group before the beast is destroyed so that group must be the saved being judged to eternal life as we also see in Rev 20.

Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

And just like it is for the thousand years, some "beasts" (the wicked/unsaved/and satan himself) have their lives prolonged. Indeed during the thousand years satan and many unsaved gentiles of the world's nations will live through the thousand years.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs who come back to life. This is a judgment and resurrection of only the saved. The unsaved are judged at a later time and at a later resurrection: "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" so clearly AFTER the Millennium is when these are resurrected and judged.


Another example of the righteous being judged separately from the wicked:


Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Here we again have judgment of the righteous first! No wicked are being judged with the righteous.


Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Christ does not address time in this but according to Rev 20, there is a period of time inbetween the judgment of the dead in Christ vs. the rest of the dead so we know there is time inbetween these two judgments. Even in human courts there is no such concept of judging someone a reward while judging someone to death. That happens at different times. The two don't belong in one court judgment.


1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

As you can see, the righteous are judged FIRST. Judgment starts with "us" as Peter confirms.

Is a thousand years out understanding of a millennial period? When to God 1000 years is as a day and a day like unto 1000 years?