I suspect that the "Great White Throne Judgment" as described in Revelation is only imagery rather than an event

[Jay Ross]

@marks,

Patrick has trouble with the word "everybody" as used in scripture. He is applying the literal meaning that everybody means everybody, with no exceptions.

The king of England is the king of "everybody" in the British Empire, but not everybody in the British Empire accepts King Charles is their King.

The same is true with respect to God's love of "everybody" in that not everybody acknowledges God's love for them or reciprocates by loving God in response.

When two teams play a game, the expression that one team "slauthered the other team" on the field during the game, but the word slauthered does not mean that the one team killed everyone in the opposing team. The expression "slauthered the other team" is a figure of speech, in this case in the context of a game between the two teams, which describe the win of one team over the other by a large margin.

Patrick unfortunately is missing the context of the verses. God does love everyone, but because he allows people to exercise their free choice, God has no control over who actually does respond with their love for Him.

Patrick and other like-minded people are being deceived and as such they are missing the gospel.

Shalom

 

[Gottservant]

Hell tortures, until the sin that gets you there is destroyed.

If you have works, that survive Hell and they give glory to God, your time in Hell becomes tolerable (but only just).

 

[St. SteVen]

Hell tortures, until the sin that gets you there is destroyed.

If you have works, that survive Hell and they give glory to God, your time in Hell becomes tolerable (but only just).

I mostly agree.
Although I see it as curative, not punitive.

 

[Marty fox]

My view is that there is an Age of Reconciliation.
That "judgement" will be a public event. One person at a time.
The "judgement" will both rewards and correction.
With the goal of restoration/mercy/redemption.
There will also be a judgment of nations and leaders.

Before the Age of Reconciliation we are held in the Realm of the Dead -- Hades/Sheol.

So do you think that no one will perish but all will be reconciled?

If so I refer you to the quo of Jesus that I posted

 

[St. SteVen]

So do you think that no one will perish but all will be reconciled?

The short answer would be, Yes.
What did Jesus mean by "perish"?

 

[ewq1938]

The short answer would be, Yes.
What did Jesus mean by "perish"?

The opposite of eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The evil aren't coming to the light so that rules out that they eventually will.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
The short answer would be, Yes.
What did Jesus mean by "perish"?

The opposite of eternal life.

That's debatable, I suppose.
The scripture you quoted being notable.

The evil aren't coming to the light so that rules out that they eventually will.

Well, at least some "evil" persona are coming to the light.
Otherwise you and I wouldn't be having this discussion, right? - LOL

And I don't think it "rules out that they eventually will."
Every knee will bow, and every tongue confess...
On earth, in heaven, and UNDER THE EARTH... where?

 

[ewq1938]

And I don't think it "rules out that they eventually will."

Says they won't and contrasts perishing and everlasting life so it's pretty clear there's two fates. The bible speaks of them many times. The bible never once says those cast into the LOF walk out of it.

 

[Marty fox]

The short answer would be, Yes.
What did Jesus mean by "perish"?

What you believe contradicts what jesus said in the bible

Matthew 13
47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left

 

[St. SteVen]

Says they won't and contrasts perishing and everlasting life so it's pretty clear there's two fates. The bible speaks of them many times. The bible never once says those cast into the LOF walk out of it.

I'm familiar with that challenge.
It's the meat grinder question, from my perspective.
As if I showed you three images of a left to right sequential operation,
but blocked out the center image for you to guess what it is.

Image #1 = a platter of pork --- Image #2 = blocked out --- Image #3 = a platter of sausage links

Can you guess what is in Image #2 the blocked out image?

Pretty obvious that it is a meat grinder, even though we can't see it.

So, the best I can do to answer your question is to show the before and after
that leads to the conclusion of what happened in between,

You are familiar with the before. What do these after "images" tell us about what is in between?

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything,
as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

 

[St. SteVen]

What you believe contradicts what jesus said in the bible

Perhaps you are misunderstanding what Jesus meant in those statements?
Soiled clothing is set aside for cleansing. Some fires are made for purifying.
And Jesus said... (everyone includes you and I)

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

 

[ewq1938]

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything,
as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

That falls short of saying anyone is rescued from destruction. The bible is clear to perish is opposite of receiving eternal life.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Other scripture says those sins must be repented of. Unrepentant sin is not removed or forgiven.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Most of these are cherry picked verses, out of context and do not support the claim made. This verse is no different.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

All kinds of people not every single person. It means anyone from any races or background can be saved. There are many scriptures showing people not being saved and those cannot be ignored.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[ewq1938]

Perhaps you are misunderstanding what Jesus meant in those statements?
Soiled clothing is set aside for cleansing. Some fires are made for purifying.
And Jesus said... (everyone includes you and I)

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

And the dirt is not saved...nor is the chaff, etc.

 

[St. SteVen]

And the dirt is not saved...nor is the chaff, etc.

We seem to be at an impasse.
Thanks for participating in the thread.

 

[Book of Revelation]

 

[JunChosen]

@St. SteVen

We're told that when we die we are judged. I believe it is immediate. Why and how would we then appear at a later judgment, aka the "Great White Throne Judgment"?

I think John was given imagery of people being judged by Christ rather than an actual event wherein ALL people who ever lived are all judged at the same time.

I think we die and that most go to Heaven and some go to Hell.

Thoughts?

 

[St. SteVen]

@JunChosen
I finally answered the OP question in post #49. Here's what I wrote.
My discussion with Patrick continues from there.

"My view is that there is an Age of Reconciliation.
That "judgement" will be a public event. One person at a time.
The "judgement" will both rewards and correction.
With the goal of restoration/mercy/redemption.
There will also be a judgment of nations and leaders.
Before the Age of Reconciliation we are held in the Realm of the Dead -- Hades/Sheol."

 

[JunChosen]

@St. SteVen

We're told that when we die we are judged. I believe it is immediate. Why and how would we then appear at a later judgment, aka the "Great White Throne Judgment"?

Who sez, YOU??? As always you are in error! Oh, I forgot, you follow a different Gospel from that of the Bible. Any way I suggest you should read and learn John 5:24-29.

I think John was given imagery of people being judged by Christ rather than an actual event wherein ALL people who ever lived are all judged at the same time.

No! All people who are in the tomb will be resurrected (John 5:29).

I think we die and that most go to Heaven and some go to Hell.

Thoughts?

In fact 2/3 of the total population of man will die and 1/3 will be saved.

 

[JunChosen]

Who sez, YOU??? As always you are in error! Oh, I forgot, you follow a different Gospel from that of the Bible. Any way I suggest you should read and learn John 5:24-29.

No! All people who are in the tomb will be resurrected (John 5:29).

In fact 2/3 of the total population of man will die and 1/3 will be saved.

The above is my response to the OP

 

[St. SteVen]

In fact 2/3 of the total population of man will die and 1/3 will be saved.

Curious as to how you arrived at this percentage.
And what do you mean by "saved"?