I will send my messenger

[face2face]

Do you believe Elijah returns during the "last 7 yeras of tribulation" after the church disappears?

Hi Phoneman, firstly I don't believe in the tribulation as commonly understood by Christians as it's based on an incorrect interpretation of the apocalypse.

I believe Elijah will be sent to God's People scattered throughout the earth, prior to, and during the time of Armageddon. As we progress, this will become clearer.

 

[face2face]

In Malachi 3:3 we see how God uses Silver to teach important lessons to what He will do through His Messenger.

Malachi 3:3 He (Yahweh) will act like a refiner and purifier of silver and will cleanse the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then they will offer the Lord a proper offering.

We all need to understand this work of refining the Levites has never been done to this point in 2022. This is an unfulfilled prophecy right here.

Let's be real clear, God used Silver here as its the price of redemption as per Exodus 30:14-16

Many Christians do not understand how these important prophecies will have their fulfillment in end times and as such the question must be asked - how will they take part in them if they are not understood and believed upon? :smlhmm:

If God states He is going to so something - He does it! not as the JW's teach that God moved on from His People and abandons His Promises (Romans 11:1). What we will find is all Scripture will be reconciled and fulfilled as per Isaiah 55:11

We need to spend a little time in this verse - so important!

tbc...

 

[Phoneman777]

Hi Phoneman, firstly I don't believe in the tribulation as commonly understood by Christians as it's based on an incorrect interpretation of the apocalypse.

I believe Elijah will be sent to God's People scattered throughout the earth, prior to, and during the time of Armageddon. As we progress, this will become clearer.

I'm of the persuasion that no human that went to heaven and received a glorified body is coming back to us. Sure, Moses and Elijah appeared in glory to Jesus on the Mount of Transfig but no where in Scripture do we see such appearing to us.

 

[face2face]

I'm of the persuasion that no human that went to heaven and received a glorified body is coming back to us. Sure, Moses and Elijah appeared in glory to Jesus on the Mount of Transfig but no where in Scripture do we see such appearing to us.

No such thing as Heaven going sorry Phoneman.

Interesting that you mention Elijah and Moses.

Do you know why God choose to raise these men from the grave to encourage the Lord?

F2F

 

[Phoneman777]

No such thing as Heaven going sorry Phoneman. Interesting that you mention Elijah and Moses. Do you know why God choose to raise these men from the grave to encourage the Lord? F2F

Elijah was carried to heaven in a fiery chariot, Enoch was "not for God took him", Moses was resurrected, according to Jude, the "many of the bodies of the saints which slept" arose and went to heaven...while the vast majority will only go at the Second Coming, we ought to acknowledge the ones which the Bible plainly says have gone on before us.

 

[face2face]

Elijah was carried to heaven in a fiery chariot, Enoch was "not for God took him", Moses was resurrected, according to Jude, the "many of the bodies of the saints which slept" arose and went to heaven...while the vast majority will only go at the Second Coming, we ought to acknowledge the ones which the Bible plainly says have gone on before us.

We are not told of what happened to these men Phoneman but it was common knowledge of the Jews that men remained in the earth till the resurrection. Acts of the Apostles 2:29 a case in point.

 

[face2face]

Do you know why Moses and Elijah?

 

[Phoneman777]

We are not told of what happened to these men Phoneman but it was common knowledge of the Jews that men remained in the earth till the resurrection. Acts of the Apostles 2:29 a case in point.

We know Elijah went to heaven in a fiery chariot, and Moses was resurrected - because both appeared to Jesus in the Mount over a thousand years after their Earthly walk, which can be accomplished only in their resurrection, immortal "house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens", never in their "earthly house of this tabernacle" (2 Corinthians 5:1-8 KJV).

Both are representative of both kinds of saints at the resurrection, the "dead in Christ" and those who will be "alive" at the Coming of Jesus.

 

[face2face]

We know Elijah went to heaven in a fiery chariot, and Moses was resurrected - because both appeared to Jesus in the Mount over a thousand years after their Earthly walk, which can be accomplished only in their resurrection, immortal "house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens", never in their "earthly house of this tabernacle" (2 Corinthians 5:1-8 KJV).

No sorry.
The resurrection event has not happened for those who sleep.

Hebrews 11:39 And these (OT faithful) all were commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 11:40 For God had provided something better for us, so that they would be made perfect together with us.

As I said Phoneman - Elijah & Moses were possibly raised for this work, but they still await the resurrection and the fulfillment of the promises and perfection.

If not - you and I are in trouble

Also just because God takes someone like Moses who was buried in the mount it doesn't mean they are in Heaven. The more you challenge that belief for yourself the more you will see its a lie.

F2F

 

[face2face]

I ask again....Do you know why Elijah & Moses were chosen of all the OT faithful to encourage Jesus before his crucifixion? It's very much on topic!

 

[Johann]

I ask again....Do you know why Elijah & Moses were chosen of all the OT faithful to encourage Jesus before his crucifixion? It's very much on topic!

Well, since the Orthodox outreach for Judaism claiming the Christians have it wrong, So the Imam's, so the JW's...guess I'll take the bait. Why did Elijah and Moses encourage Jesus before His crucifixion?

 

[face2face]

Well, since the Orthodox outreach for Judaism claiming the Christians have it wrong, So the Imam's, so the JW's...guess I'll take the bait. Why did Elijah and Moses encourage Jesus before His crucifixion?

Post #6 Who can give an answer? which Enoch111 put up has been the closest to unlocking the meaning of why Moses and Elijah were given to encourage Christ in what he was about to do. I guess, I should ask you if you find it questionable that Jesus would need encouragement? Of course, if you did, then I would suggest your current understanding of Jesus might need expanding. The whole basis of the transfiguration was God encouraging His Son and providing Moses and Elijah was an essential part of that encouragement other than the experience of being glorified if only for a moment in time.
I guess if you hold to the doctrine of the Trinity then this account really is a conundrum and reconciling the event impossible. I will leave the answer a while longer to give others the opportunity to provide an answer.
Thanks for your reply.
F2F

 

[face2face]

In Malachi 3:3 we see how God uses Silver to teach important lessons to what He will do through His Messenger.

Malachi 3:3 He (Yahweh) will act like a refiner and purifier of silver and will cleanse the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then they will offer the Lord a proper offering.

We all need to understand this work of refining the Levites has never been done to this point in 2022. This is an unfulfilled prophecy right here.

Let's be real clear, God used Silver here as its the price of redemption as per Exodus 30:14-16

Many Christians do not understand how these important prophecies will have their fulfillment in end times and as such the question must be asked - how will they take part in them if they are not understood and believed upon? :smlhmm:

If God states He is going to so something - He does it! not as the JW's teach that God moved on from His People and abandons His Promises (Romans 11:1). What we will find is all Scripture will be reconciled and fulfilled as per Isaiah 55:11

We need to spend a little time in this verse - so important!

tbc...

So the question we must ask of Malachi 3:3 is on what basis will Levi be purged and refined? Keeping in mind God is teaching that He is sending a messenger to prepare for "the" messenger of the covenant, who is Christ! Of course, this is not talking about the first advent, because to this day Levi cannot provide a perfect offering to God, having rejected His Son. This must be speaking of a time beyond Christs first coming.

So on what basis are they refined?

By Law?

Absolutely not!

The precious sons of Zion, being men of faith, are compared to refined gold as per lamentations 4:2. Israel must be redeemed on a "basis of faith" The result of this purification as far as Israel is concerned is revealed in the beautiful symbolism of Psalms 68:15.

Psalms 68:15 The mountain of Bashan is a towering mountain; the mountain of Bashan is a mountain with many peaks. 68:16 Why do you look with envy, O mountains with many peaks, at the mountain where God has decided to live? Indeed the Lord will live there permanently!

Some of you might be scratching your heads wondering how does Psalms 68:15 symbolizes a purified Israel?

If God dwells there permanently, he does so in people!

The mountain where God has decided to live is Mount Zion and is likened to Psalms 48 (a great read!) a place "beautiful for situation (Zion lifted up, exulted as per Zechariah 14:10; Psalms 68:15-16) is mount Zion; the city of the great king."

What people fail to see is God's eyes are always upon His Land and People and it's prophesied that while God's enemies only see the present, and fail to comprehend the vast changes to be wrought in the future; God guarantees the exaltation of mount Zion and Jerusalem in the Millennial Age. see Isaiah 2:2-4 and Isaiah 24:23.

Israel is to become a praise on the earth to show forth the praise of Him who has redeemed her from death.

It can only be done on the basis of faith - purged and refined by fire only then can the spiritual house of Levi offer in righteousness as per Malachi 3:3. Again, none of what we are speaking of here has been fulfilled, or done away with.

So if the House of Israel is to offer in righteousness not by the Law - how can sinful Israel be righteous?

The answer can only be by the forgiveness of their sins, and that is implied in the verse being considered.

Look at Micah 7:15-20; Ezekiel 37:25-27; Deuteronomy 30:6; Romans 11:25-26.

They will need to be brought into a position were there sins are forgiven and justified on the basis of faith, and its quite possible that these future Jewish Levites will serve in the Temple that the Lord Jesus will erect in Zion as per Ezekiel 44:10-11.

That was a lot to digest.

tbc...

 

[face2face]

Malachi 3:4 is an absolute cracker of a verse!!!

If anyone had doubts whether the restoration of Israel and Zion to its former place of favour in the sight of God was a fairy tale...a figment of my imagination then this seals the deal! It's likened to the certainty of Amos 9:11.

The Christian (especially the JW!!!) is without excuse for thinking God has abandoned His people.

Malachi 3:4 The offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lord as in former times and years past.

Beyond John the Baptist - - - beyond Jesus' death and resurrection - - - > to a time when God will write the New Covenant upon His Peoples hearts.

But who will prepare this work?

Answer: Malachi 4:5-6 and some of the saints will go with Elijah throughout the earth to start that process of refining, purging...with great miracles and judgements will Israel be brought back into the land once more!

 

[Phoneman777]

No sorry. The resurrection event has not happened for those who sleep. Hebrews 11:39 And these (OT faithful) all were commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 11:40 For God had provided something better for us, so that they would be made perfect together with us.

The resurrection is at the end, but God chose to take Elijah to heaven beforehand - where no mortal body can withstand the unveiled glory of God. Elijah would not have survived unless he'd been translated. Also, what body was Moses in when he spoke to Jesus in the Mount, his mortal body that went into the ground or the one "made without hands, eternal in the heavens"? We know Moses was resurrected because Satan was arguing with the Lord over his body, and unless one is so naive to think the dispute was over who would get to stuff it and mount or whether it would be donated to medical science, the only logical reason is that God was about to resurrect him. Therefore, it was in his resurrection body that Moses appeared with Elijah to Jesus.

As I said Phoneman - Elijah & Moses were possibly raised for this work

Elijah never died, so didn't need to be raised.

but they still await the resurrection and the fulfillment of the promises and perfection.

The evidence says God chose to take them to heaven, as in the case of Enoch, as "trophies" to dangle in the face of Satan as a rebuke.

If not - you and I are in trouble Also just because God takes someone like Moses who was buried in the mount it doesn't mean they are in Heaven. The more you challenge that belief for yourself the more you will see its a lie. F2F

The fact that Moses appeared and spoke to Jesus is proof positive that he was resurrected because "the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything" and "praise not the Lord" and are in a place of "darkness" and "silence" without "wisdom", "knowledge", "devising" of plans, or ability to do anything, according to the overwhelming testimony of the Scriptures.

"God alone hath immortality" and only mortal men who "seek for immortality" will be granted it - do you seek for your wallet if it's already in your back pocket?

 

[face2face]

The resurrection is at the end, but God chose to take Elijah to heaven beforehand - where no mortal body can withstand the unveiled glory of God. Elijah would not have survived unless he'd been translated. Also, what body was Moses in when he spoke to Jesus in the Mount, his mortal body that went into the ground or the one "made without hands, eternal in the heavens"?

Correct, Jesus, Elijah and Moses were all in mortal bodies which is the point of the transfiguration as we shall see.

We know Moses was resurrected because Satan was arguing with the Lord over his body, and unless one is so naive to think the dispute was over who would get to stuff it and mount or whether it would be donated to medical science, the only logical reason is that God was about to resurrect him. Therefore, it was in his resurrection body that Moses appeared with Elijah to Jesus.
Elijah never died, so didn't need to be raised.

Firstly the passage refers to Michael the Arch Angel and not the Lord Jesus Christ.
Secondily in your belief of a fallen angel you believe this evil being is interested in souls not a dead corpse.
Thirdly, its clear from what you have written that you haven't deeply looked at that Scripture

I think if you compare Zechariah 3:2 with Jude 1:9 you will see the writter is referring to human adversaries and not a fallen angel.

This is off topic and has nothing to do with Moses and Elijah strengthening Jesus for the work he is about to do.

The evidence says God chose to take them to heaven, as in the case of Enoch, as "trophies" to dangle in the face of Satan as a rebuke.
The fact that Moses appeared and spoke to Jesus is proof positive that he was resurrected because "the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything" and "praise not the Lord" and are in a place of "darkness" and "silence" without "wisdom", "knowledge", "devising" of plans, or ability to do anything, according to the overwhelming testimony of the Scriptures.

"God alone hath immortality" and only mortal men who "seek for immortality" will be granted it - do you seek for your wallet if it's already in your back pocket?

There is no evidence other than the truth that all men return to dust - how God chooses to take a man is up to Him. Moses was buried in the mount and Elijah taken away to be buried of the Lord in a location no man knows. Anything beyond this is man made fantasies.

F2F

 

[face2face]

First Advent:

The Messenger of God is sent to prepare the way for the Messenger of the Covenant (ratified through death - lamb)

John the Baptist, in the Spirit of Elijah prepares the way for Messiah

The Outcome:

Jews reject Christ but the Gentiles accept him

Second Advent:

The Messenger of God is sent to prepare the way for the Messenger of the Covenant (enforced through judgement - lion)

Elijah prepares the way for the Messiah

The Outcome:

Jews accept Messiah but the Christians reject him

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a sobering picture we are building here fellow Christian.

Malachi 3:5 contains a lot concerning both Jew & Gentile - you may struggle to comprehend why Christians will reject Christ at his coming and this is something we will explore in time. For now understanding the work of Elijah is important as it's the work of God to refine his people and purge them of their disobedience.

Malachi 3:5 coming soon...

 

[Phoneman777]

Correct, Jesus, Elijah and Moses were all in mortal bodies which is the point of the transfiguration as we shall see.

Jesus was...Moses and Elijah had their immortal bodies for reasons already outlined.

Firstly the passage refers to Michael the Arch Angel and not the Lord Jesus Christ.

You didn't know that before the JWs got involved, it was a common belief among Christianity that Jesus is Michael - the "One Who is as God Who is the ruler of the angels".

Secondily in your belief of a fallen angel you believe this evil being is interested in souls not a dead corpse.

A Soul is a person, living or dead - it's not a transparent version of you or me that flies off at death. That's pagan occultism and Hollywood satanism.

Thirdly, its clear from what you have written that you haven't deeply looked at that Scripture

I have.

I think if you compare Zechariah 3:2 with Jude 1:9 you will see the writter is referring to human adversaries and not a fallen angel.

In both cases, the person was human. Moses was dead, and I'm not sure about Joshua whether he was alive or dead - could have been a dispute like that found in Job, who was alive.

This is off topic and has nothing to do with Moses and Elijah strengthening Jesus for the work he is about to do.

Elijah was taken to heaven where he could not have survived unless he'd be granted his immortal, eternal body, period. You know this is true, given God's testimony to Moses.

Elijah taken away to be buried of the Lord in a location no man knows. Anything beyond this is man made fantasies. F2F

I can show you where it says Elijah was taken to heaven in a whirlwind - can you show us where he was buried?

Both Moses and Elijah were granted immortal bodies at some point when they left this Earth, and is why they appeared to Jesus in the Mount.

 

[face2face]

Jesus was...Moses and Elijah had their immortal bodies for reasons already outlined.

They are still yet to be immortalized along with all the faithful - yet to be made perfect!

Moses & Elijah both mentioned in Hebrews 11

Lets look at what it states about them shall we once again

Hebrews 11:39 And these all (Moses & Elijah included - read the chapter!!!) were commended for their faith (to this we both agree!), yet they did not receive what was promised. (i.e. eternal life and promises made the the fathers)

So you are saying they did, which goes against the teaching of Paul - Paul understood they are still in their graves awaiting the resurrection!

Hebrews 11:40 For God had provided something better for us, so that they would be made perfect together with us.

In other words all who sleep are awaiting the resurrection.

I think its more about you dealing with the reality that all men return to dust - i.e. all in adam die - go to the grave. Unfortunately, you read of Elijah going by way of a chariot into heaven you assume it to mean into very Heaven itself which is not what the record is saying. Where Elijah was buried after that only God knows - same as Moses which has already been proven as er Deuteronomy 34:6.

In your reply if you cant speak to Hebrews 11 which outlines all the faithful including Moses and Elijah being still dead without the promise best you move on Phoneman and let this thread continue on its way.

Cheers
F2F

 

[face2face]

Malachi 3:5

Of course, this is not referencing the first coming of Jesus because God had withdrawn Himself from their Temple and worship and was now dwelling in His Son.

A time would come when God through Christ will "come near to you (Israel)"

For what reason?

"For judgement!"

The Jews were asking, "'where is the God of judgment?" (Malachi 2:17)

The answer is that though His judgment may be slow in coming, as men account time, it will undoubtedly come. And it will be terrible in its coming. See:

Nahum 1:6-7
1 Corinthians 5:12-15
2 Timothy 2:19

Spiritual Israel us well as Natural Israel will be the focus of judgment, the former being called before the Lord at Sinai (possible location of the judgement) for that purpose as per 1 Peter 4:17 & Revelation 5:14).

The NET is very clear!

Malachi 3:5 “I will come to you in judgment. I will be quick to testify against those who practice divination, those who commit adultery, those who break promises, and those who exploit workers, widows, and orphans, •who refuse to help the immigrant and in this way show they do not fear me,” says the Lord who rules over all.

Can you sense the fear in those words "I will be a swift witness"

Yahweh through Christ will be a quick witness and judge - who can stand or speak?

John 16:8 is the fulfillment of Malachi 3:5 upon the 2nd coming of Christ to the earth.

This is what God desires of His true sons and daughters
Isaiah 66:2, Ezra 9:4; Ezra 9:4 and Proverbs 28:14.

F2F