I will send my messenger

[face2face]

We come to the last verse in this study and prophecy.

Malachi 3:6 and what a way to finish a stirring prophecy.

"FOR I AM YAHWEH, I CHANGE NOT"

It's such a comforting way to conclude the prophecy. The use of His covenant name, the guarantee that what He has promised in relation to Israels future He will perform!

All these who place their trust in His promises are assured by His names that He will not fail them. In a word, it expresses all His purpose and intentions with man. The time will come when all mankind will come to realise these truths as per Jeremiah 16:19.

for now

p.s leave you a gem... Exodus 3:14 cmp Ezekiel 36:22

 

[farouk]

Malachi is such an interesting and searching little prophecy..........

 

[Phoneman777]

They are still yet to be immortalized along with all the faithful - yet to be made perfect!

No, they are already immortalized via God's choice to grant it to them ahead of time.

Moses & Elijah both mentioned in Hebrews 11 Lets look at what it states about them shall we once again Hebrews 11:39 And these all (Moses & Elijah included - read the chapter!!!) were commended for their faith (to this we both agree!), yet they did not receive what was promised. (i.e. eternal life and promises made the the fathers) So you are saying they did, which goes against the teaching of Paul - Paul understood they are still in their graves awaiting the resurrection!

Your entire argument falls apart right here:

QUESTION: What was the promise to Abraham and Abraham's seed?

ANWSER: "A city whose building and maker is God" - the "New Heaven and New Earth". A city where the inhabitants will forever speak of their glorious deliverance from the destruction of a planet full of sin and sinners.

Has that destruction taken place yet? No.
Has that deliverance happened yet? Of course not, because the destruction hasn't taken place yet.
Has the new construction even begun yet? No, because the demolition hasn't taken place yet.
Then why do you continue to insist Moses and Elijah have inherited that promise?

In other words all who sleep are awaiting the resurrection.

Yes, but Moses and Elijah ain't sleeping, because both appeared to Jesus, the resurrected Moses and the translated Elijah.

I think its more about you dealing with the reality that all men return to dust - i.e. all in adam die - go to the grave.

No, it's to do with you needing to deal with the reality that God can do what He wants, exemplified by His decision to reward Elijah and Enoch with the privilege of not tasting death.

Unfortunately, you read of Elijah going by way of a chariot into heaven you assume it to mean into very Heaven itself

I don't assume anything: it's plainly written.

In your reply if you cant speak to Hebrews 11 which outlines all the faithful including Moses and Elijah being still dead without the promise best you move on Phoneman and let this thread continue on its way. Cheers F2F

Where is this "outline" in Hebrews 11? It doesn't say Elijah died, you're saying that.

I've never heard anyone claiming that God will resurrect people, send them on a mission, and then let them die again and await the Resurrection of the Just, as you claim Moses and Elijah were when they met Jesus. Sure, there are 12 miracle resurrections (13 if you count Moses' resurrection) but not one of them was performed to send anyone on a mission: they were meant only to demonstrate the power of God over death, and to expose the impotence of Satan who desperately wants to be God but can't even bring back to life a human cell, let alone an entire person or animal.

 

[face2face]

Then why do you continue to insist Moses and Elijah have inherited that promise?

Is this a typo?
I have already shown you they are dead and buried and awaiting the resurrection as per Hebrews 11:39

If they have been made perfect then you are forever dead in your sins as it's plainly stated that God would not give them perfection until the fulness of His calling of the Gentiles is complete Romans 11:25 & Acts of the Apostles 15:14

It's upon you to prove the doctrine of Heaven Going which as I've stated is nowhere taught in the Bible.

Here are some verses for you to consider about the fate of man:

Job 14:10 (answer: nowhere!)
Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
Psalms 89:48
Isaiah 2:22
Ecclesiastes 9:5
Isaiah 38:18-19
Psalms 146:3-4
Acts of the Apostles 2:29 (David is both dead and buried!)

And so many more that teach man when he dies; has no existence, no thoughts, nothing!...hence the need for the resurrection

If God wanted to raise Moses and Elijah for the purpose of strengthening His son do you think He lacks the power to do so? Surely not!

God has determined a time when the dead will be raised.

But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Corinthians 15:13-18)

The issue is clear - your mind is full of spirits and souls and the possession of immortality which is not in the Bible.

Where is this "outline" in Hebrews 11? It doesn't say Elijah died, you're saying that.

Hebrews 11:32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, •of David and Samuel and the prophets (Elijah, Elisha etc)

You see Paul includes all the Prophets, none of which exist today, only in the mind of God which is the whole point of Hebrews 11 - they have not received what was promised - that is to be made perfect.

Hebrews 11:33 Through faith they conquered kingdoms, administered justice, gained what was promised, shut the mouths of lions, 11:34 quenched raging fire, escaped the edge of the sword, gained strength in weakness, became mighty in battle, put foreign armies to flight, 11:35 and women received back their dead raised to life. But others were tortured, not accepting release, to obtain resurrection to a better life. 11:36 And others experienced mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 11:37 They were stoned, sawed apart, murdered with the sword; they went about in sheepskins and •goatskins; they were destitute, afflicted, ill-treated 11:38 (the world was not worthy of them); they wandered in deserts and mountains and caves and openings in the earth. 11:39 And these all were commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised.

11:40 For God had provided something better for us, so that they (Elijah & Moses) would be made perfect together with us.

So all these people:

1. Have not received what was promised
2. Have not been perfected in any way

Let's look at point 2. ‘made perfect’ is a phrase occurring three times in Hebrews. (Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 11:40, Hebrews 12:23) - it speaks of what Christ became through suffering and his resurrection! AND to what the faithful will become (future tense) when God deems it ready i.e the resurrection!

So lets show you an example of how these men of Faith have received absolutely nothing from God to date.

Genesis 42:38 Jacob's reference to his going to the "grave" ["grave" from the Hebrew "sheol" (7585) which means "grave, hell, pit"]. Note Jacob was a righteous man of faith (Hebrews 11:20, Hebrews 11:21, Hebrews 11:39 Hebrews 11:40) and all who die (righteous and unrighteous) go to "hell" i.e. the "grave".

Jacob has not been given divine nature; he doesn't have what was promised in terms of land or blessings...he is dust! Until such time as Christ raises him from the dead Psalms 146:4

However, you believe Moses and Elijah have been given their reward - they have eternal life and so Hebrews 11:40 is false in your eyes - they have been perfected like the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Bible states emphatically no!

 

[Phoneman777]

Is this a typo?
I have already shown you they are dead and buried and awaiting the resurrection as per Hebrews 11:39

What I mean is why do you insist that Moses' resurrection to an immortal body and Elijah's translation into an immortal body violate Hebrews 11?

Neither one of them, nor anyone else, has received the promises of Jesus' kingdom because they aren't fulfilled yet.

The "city who's builder and maker is God" has not been given over to the saints yet.
It hasn't been given over yet because it's not been established in the New Heaven and Earth yet.
It hasn't been established yet because the Old Heaven and Old Earth full in sin and sinners hasn't been destroyed yet.

 

[face2face]

What I mean is why do you insist that Moses' resurrection to an immortal body and Elijah's translation into an immortal body violate Hebrews 11?

Neither one of them, nor anyone else, has received the promises of Jesus' kingdom because they aren't fulfilled yet.

The "city who's builder and maker is God" has not been given over to the saints yet.
It hasn't been given over yet because it's not been established in the New Heaven and Earth yet.
It hasn't been established yet because the Old Heaven and Old Earth full in sin and sinners hasn't been destroyed yet.

Lets approach this another way shall we clearly you believe Moses and Elijah are perfected in nature even though Hebrews 11 states clearly they have not received anything up until that time.

Answer this question please.

On what basis could God immortalized Moses and Elijah when Christ sacrifice had not yet taken place? You would need to believe Moses and Elijah were both sinless and didn't require atonement. You would also violate every single divine principle God has revealed in redeeming mankind to himself, if you believe Moses & Elijah were eternal beings on the Mount with Christ.

You also forget exactly why they were on the Mount to encourage the Lord to go through with his sacrifice, because their salvation was dependent on him overcoming his nature to sin.

Your compromised in belief - you have error and its caused harm to the record.

The answer of course is it would be impossible for God to immortalize a man without the sacrifice of Christ because there would be no forgiveness of sin and God righteousness would be compromised something He would never do...hence why Moses and Elijah were raised in their mortal state to encourage Jesus and yes they returned to the ground until such time as God has finished calling the Gentiles and the return of Christ will see them raised, judged and glorified.

But hey if you can force God to compromise His principles all because you want two OT men to be eternal beings with mortal Christ - thats your business. I know God and His ways and I'm telling you your belief is impossible.

Been good chatting
F2F

 

[face2face]

What I mean is why do you insist that Moses' resurrection to an immortal body and Elijah's translation into an immortal body violate Hebrews 11?

Neither one of them, nor anyone else, has received the promises of Jesus' kingdom because they aren't fulfilled yet.

Resurrection to judgement and the putting on of the divine nature is a single event yet to occur. Hebrews 11:40 states...they have not been perfected until God perfects everyone who has been called to glory....and yet to be called.

No one with the exception of Christ has been perfected through resurrection!

As I've stated earlier - it's the false teaching of the immortal soul and heaven going which has stuffed you up on these matters.

I'm always willing to show you a more perfect understanding.

God bless your searching

F2F

 

[Phoneman777]

Lets approach this another way shall we clearly you believe Moses and Elijah are perfected in nature even though Hebrews 11 states clearly they have not received anything up until that time.

Yes, they "received not the promise". What promise?
You say, "The promise of an immortal body". I say the promise of a city who's builder and maker is God and deliverance from the destruction of sin and sinners, which is still future.

What does Scripture say?​

Luke 9:30-31 KJV
[30] And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
[31] Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

As I keep saying, Moses and Elijah "appeared in glory" of their glorious "building made without hands, eternal in the heavens" - Moses' glorious resurrection body and Elijah's glorious translated body.

So, we finally see that Moses and Elijah did go to heaven with immortal bodies, and thus will never return down here in anything but those bodies.

 

[face2face]

Yes, they "received not the promise". What promise?
You say, "The promise of an immortal body". I say the promise of a city who's builder and maker is God and deliverance from the destruction of sin and sinners, which is still future.

What does Scripture say?​

Luke 9:30-31 KJV
[30] And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
[31] Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

As I keep saying, Moses and Elijah "appeared in glory" of their glorious "building made without hands, eternal in the heavens" - Moses' glorious resurrection body and Elijah's glorious translated body.

So, we finally see that Moses and Elijah did go to heaven with immortal bodies, and thus will never return down here in anything but those bodies.

Lol the glory experienced was temporary that was the whole point of the transfiguration...to show Christ the vision of what he would accomplish upon his death.

You didn't deal with how they were made immortal without Christ's sacrifice...you still have a massive problem!

 

[face2face]

Yes, they "received not the promise". What promise?
You say, "The promise of an immortal body". I say the promise of a city who's builder and maker is God and deliverance from the destruction of sin and sinners, which is still future.

So you are quoting only part of the promises made to Abraham with no mention of his deliverence from mortality which he needs to inherit those eternal things promised (land, great name, great nation etc), and yes you are right that hasn't taken place yet - why?

Hebrews 11:39 & Hebrews 11:40.

Abraham, Moses & Elijah not perfected in any way - they have not received immortality or even an ounce of their inheritance - nothing - not a thing! No eternal nature and no eternal city - end of story!

Again, I keep asking you on what basis were Moses and Elijah given immortality? No man can come to the father except by the sacrifice and sin covering name of Jesus Christ - so you must believe they were made immortal by some other means because Mark 9 was before his death, resurrection and ascension.

I'm looking for honesty from you - an "I dont know", doesn't mean you lose ground just that you haven't thought it through.

If you say Hebrews 9:28 I would agree - but Christ was still in the flesh and yet to conquer it so how do you say Moses and Elijah are given eternal life without the sacrifice of Christ?

Christ sacrifice was to remove mens sins!
Christs second coming is to raise dead men and woman, judge and reward with eternal life and inheritance.

But you say Moses and Elijah received eternal life before which must imply you believe Moses and Elijah to be sinless like Christ.

Your explanation ought be good Phoneman, because you have spent a lot of time trying to convince me of your theory, so I hope you have thought this through!

F2F

Also when you have time explain 1 Corinthians 15:20 in relation to Moses and Elijah being glorified with immortality before Christ the firstfruits!

 

[Phoneman777]

Lol the glory experienced was temporary that was the whole point of the transfiguration...to show Christ the vision of what he would accomplish upon his death.

So, now God transfigured all three? Where does it say that in Scripture? The only verses which speak of this Mount experience record Jesus alone as having been transfigured - conversely, the text plainly says Moses and Elijah "appeared in glory" of their glorified, eternal bodies.

You didn't deal with how they were made immortal without Christ's sacrifice...you still have a massive problem!

How many resurrections took place before Jesus - the "First Fruit of the Resurrection" - was sacrificed?

Oh...so you think it's OK for God to predicate all those resurrections on the assurance that Jesus would indeed accomplish Himself as the "First Fruit of the Resurrection", but it's not OK for God to predicate the glorification of Moses and Elijah on the assurance that Jesus would accomplish Himself unto "glory which I had with Thee before the world was"? You preach the Gospel of Inconsistency, friend. If God can resurrect people before Christ was, He can glorify Moses and Elijah beforehand, as well.

 

[Phoneman777]

So you are quoting only part of the promises made to Abraham

Yes, because part of them haven't been received while other parts have. No one has received the city who's builder and maker is God in the heaven and earth made new yet, but many have received the Blessing by which "all the families of the Earth" are to be blessed: Jesus.

Please stop trying to use "received not the promise" to "prove" Moses and Elijah haven't been granted immortality - they "appeared in glory" to Jesus in the Mount. Does it say the disciples "appeared in glory" as well? No, just Moses and Elijah...because they were immortal while the disciples were yet mortal.

 

[face2face]

So, now God transfigured all three? Where does it say that in Scripture? The only verses which speak of this Mount experience record Jesus alone as having been transfigured - conversely, the text plainly says Moses and Elijah "appeared in glory" of their glorified, eternal bodies.
How many resurrections took place before Jesus - the "First Fruit of the Resurrection" - was sacrificed?

Oh...so you think it's OK for God to predicate all those resurrections on the assurance that Jesus would indeed accomplish Himself as the "First Fruit of the Resurrection", but it's not OK for God to predicate the glorification of Moses and Elijah on the assurance that Jesus would accomplish Himself unto "glory which I had with Thee before the world was"? You preach the Gospel of Inconsistency, friend. If God can resurrect people before Christ was, He can glorify Moses and Elijah beforehand, as well.

Nice dodge there Phoneman.
I am still waiting for you to show your understanding on how Moses and Elijah were immortalized without the sacrifice of Christ? On what basis did he perfect them before everyone else?

Surely you understand how a man is saved? I dont need to go into the Atonement principles with you?

Tell us how and we can move on!

Clearly you believe they were in Heaven as well which we also have proved impossible so where were they kept all those years?

F2F

 

[face2face]

Yes, because part of them haven't been received while other parts have. No one has received the city who's builder and maker is God in the heaven and earth made new yet, but many have received the Blessing by which "all the families of the Earth" are to be blessed: Jesus.

Please stop trying to use "received not the promise" to "prove" Moses and Elijah haven't been granted immortality - they "appeared in glory" to Jesus in the Mount. Does it say the disciples "appeared in glory" as well? No, just Moses and Elijah...because they were immortal while the disciples were yet mortal.

In Exodus 34:29-35 we see Moses' face shinning with God's glory but that didn't mean he was immortal - your premise that Jesus in his mortal state being transfigured for a moment in time changed must have changed his nature from a dying man, to immortal, back to a dying man. God simply gave Jesus a taste of the future age when Jerusalem will be a praise in the earth, by way of encouragement for him to continue on with his sacrifice.

It's clear you do not understand the account or the purpose for the transfiguration. Moses, Elijah & Jesus are all mortal men in this account who are there to encourage Christ to continue in God's strength to offer himself as a sacrifice for sin. Hence we read of the Lords words Mark 8:31. his looming death weighed heavily on him and God could see that he needed encouragement so he raised up Moses and Elijah temporarily to provide this encouragement no different to those who were raised during his crucifixion all of whom returned to the grave to await the resurrection.

Enjoy
F2F

 

[Phoneman777]

Nice dodge there Phoneman.
I am still waiting for you to show your understanding on how Moses and Elijah were immortalized without the sacrifice of Christ?

I already dealt with it in post #51:

F2F said:
You didn't deal with how they were made immortal without Christ's sacrifice...you still have a massive problem!

Phoneman777 replied:
How many resurrections took place before Jesus - the "First Fruit of the Resurrection" - was sacrificed?

Oh...so you think it's OK for God to predicate all those resurrections on the assurance that Jesus would indeed accomplish Himself as the "First Fruit of the Resurrection", but it's not OK for God to predicate the glorification of Moses and Elijah on the assurance that Jesus would accomplish Himself unto "glory which I had with Thee before the world was"?
You preach the Gospel of Inconsistency, friend. If God can resurrect people before Christ was, He can glorify Moses and Elijah beforehand, as well.

 

[face2face]

I already dealt with it in post #51:

F2F said:
You didn't deal with how they were made immortal without Christ's sacrifice...you still have a massive problem!

Phoneman777 replied:
How many resurrections took place before Jesus - the "First Fruit of the Resurrection" - was sacrificed?

Plenty of resurrections but once again you avoid the fact that not one of them has been made immortal and perfected.

Com'on how long will you resist?

On what basis do you believe Moses and Elijah have divine nature and are immortal.



You only have one option...you must say they were sinless and they are the firstborns from the dead.

Your foundation is like quicksand.

 

[face2face]

@Phoneman777

Do you understand the nature of man as James did in James 4:14? You seem to think Moses and Elijah are excluded from this reality? Why? I have shown you how Moses was buried and yet you say he is immortal now dwelling with God in light unapproachable?

And then you say Elijah did not see death and yet the Psalmist asks you "What man is he that lives, and shall not see death? Psalms 89:48

And who shall deliver that life from the grave?

Then there is Romans 5:12; 1 Corinthians 15:22 & Job 4:17 all of which tell you man is nothing - he has no life in him at all! There is no eternal divine essence in man - no particle of God in our nature - only corrupting flesh the same as Abraham, Moses, Elijah and David.

Here are their graves

Abraham - Genesis 25:8-10 (Abraham was gathered to his people in the grave!)
Moses - Deuteronomy 34:5-7
Elijah - 2 Kings 2:11 (similar to Moses God must have buried him in a place no one knows)
David - Acts of the Apostles 2:29

So Abraham, Moses and David are certainly still in the ground to this day, and we must assume Elijah is also buried, as it was time for Elisha to take his mantle and continue his work.

In keeping with the OP - the resurrection when Christ descends with the voice of the archangel and the dead rise we will see Elijah carry out his work of restoring all things for Israel as already covered. Of course, a man can be raise, judged and changed / perfected because the firstborn from the dead has power to grant them life!

F2F

 

[Phoneman777]

In Exodus 34:29-35 we see Moses' face shinning with God's glory but that didn't mean he was immortal..."

You obviously can't see the difference between what happened at Mount Sinai and at the Mount of Transfiguration.
Does the NT say "Moses' face appeared in glory" or "Moses, the entire person, "appeared in glory"?

It's clear you do not understand the account or the purpose for the transfiguration.

Luke makes it plain why Moses and Elijah were there. What you don't understand is the difference between a mortal man's face lit up after having been in the presence of Jesus and his entire being lit up in the glory of immortality. Moses and Elijah "appeared in glory", not just their faces.


My favorite preacher told of a man he baptized many years ago who was a terribly raging alcoholic. One night he stumbled half drunk into the preacher's Gospel/Revelation tent meetings where the truth was being preached, alcohol heavy on his breath. Back then, those church meetings went on for months. The man had been living in a rented room in a large house on the wrong side of the tracks. The preacher thought he'd just wandered in and didn't expect to see him again, but the next night, there he was, drunk again. Night after night, he'd show up drunk, until the night came when he showed up half sober and said he wanted to follow Jesus. His struggle was indeed severe, falling several times as the weeks went on.

One day, he made up his mind he was not going to drink at all and decided to attend the Sabbath morning tent service. The members invited him back to eat lunch afterward and he'd had such a nice time he decided to spend the last few hours of the Sabbath on the boardwalk by the water in peace. He sat down next to a man who was fishing, and the man pulled a liquor bottle from his coat and took a swig, and then pushed the bottle in his face. He said, "Pastor, I got drunk again". Later that night, completely disgusted with himself, he returned home, feeling worse than ever. Finally he thought, "If only I could get baptized, I could kick the habit".

The day came when the preacher reluctantly baptized him, praying fervently for him, and after he'd spent the rest of the day with his new church family, he returned home late that evening. There was a party at the halfway house. He said when he walked in, he could smell the liquor and the cigarettes and cigars and he immediately ran upstairs and got on his knees to pray. When he came downstairs, his girlfriend ran up to him and kissed him and wanted to know where he'd been all day. He said he smelled the liquor on her breath and saw the drink in her hand and it was too much, so immediately ran back upstairs to pray. A few minutes later, he came down and again, and others were surrounding him, offering him a drink and wanting to know where he'd been. He ran upstairs a third time. When he came back down, the entire room was staring at him. His girlfriend angrily demanded to know what was going on. In front of everyone, he told them he'd been to church and was baptized and would no longer be drinking and partying anymore. He said his girlfriend's mouth dropped open and finally she said, "YOU???" and laughed like the laughter of demons. The others began to mock and laugh until finally the owner of the house yelled at everyone to shut up. Then, he looked at the man and said is that true? He replied, "Yes". The owner abruptly announced the party was over, and told everyone to leave. After they were gone, the owner said to him, "I believe you're telling the truth. You see, I was watching you when you came in and saw you go upstairs and come back down, and go up and come down, and when I saw you come back down that last time, there was a strange glow all over your face." That man went on to become an officer in the church; he later married and his wife and children held offices in the church, as well.

 

[Phoneman777]

Plenty of resurrections but once again you avoid the fact that not one of them has been made immortal and perfected.

Com'on how long will you resist?

On what basis do you believe Moses and Elijah have divine nature and are immortal.



You only have one option...you must say they were sinless and they are the firstborns from the dead.

Your foundation is like quicksand.

Keep on preaching that Gospel of Inconsistency, friend.

You teach it WAS OK for God to resurrect all those people before Jesus was.
You teach it WAS NOT OK for God to glorify Moses and Elijah before Jesus was.

"Consistency, thou art a jewel".

 

[Phoneman777]

@Phoneman777

Do you understand the nature of man as James did in James 4:14? You seem to think Moses and Elijah are excluded from this reality?

God can't fast track Moses and Elijah to glory? I thought God could do anything.

I have shown you how Moses was buried and yet you say he is immortal now dwelling with God in light unapproachable?

Yes, he is immortal, because there was a dispute over Moses' body between Satan and God concerning what was obviously His intention to resurrect him (unless you think the dispute was over who would get display Moses' body above the fireplace or whether or not to donate his body to science). God won the dispute, Moses was resurrected, and later "appeared in glory" to Jesus.

And then you say Elijah did not see death and yet the Psalmist asks you "What man is he that lives, and shall not see death?

You know what else Scripture says? "It is appointed unto man once to die, then after the judgment" but God allow people like Lazarus to die twice, right? Moses and Elijah "appeared in glory" literally, not parabolically, to Jesus as "Divine Exceptions".