If atheists get accused of taking verses out of context, how do we know fundamentalists making those accusations aren’t doing the same as well?

[Lapidem]

Done.

1. Walking in the woods happening upon a book is actual evidence of a writer. Likewise,
2. happening upon code written in 4D using molecules to form DNA in a creature is actual evidence of a Creator.

Sigh, why is this stuff so difficult for you?!!!

The evidence of " a creator" of some sort means just that. A creator of some sort.

So let's try again, where is your evidence that your god was the creator as opposed to some other entity or other god or alien ?

 

[Lapidem]

 

[Wrangler]

Sigh, why is this stuff so difficult for you?!!!

The evidence of " a creator" of some sort means just that. A creator of some sort.

So let's try again, where is your evidence that your god was the creator as opposed to some other entity or other god or alien ?

It is not logical that it is any other but God for the question of where did life originate has but 1 answer.

 

[Lapidem]

It is not logical that it is any other but God for the question of where did life originate has but 1 answer.

So let's try again, where is your EVIDENCE that your god was the creator as opposed to some other entity or other god or alien ?#

Not your supposition, not your "logic" (and I use the term incorrectly), not your hopes, wishes and fantasies . . . your EVIDENCE. Where is it?

For heaven's sake have the humility to concede that you have no evidence and salvage the last shred of credibility you have here!

 

[Wrangler]

So let's try again, where is your EVIDENCE that your god was the creator as opposed to some other entity or other god or alien ?#

You are drowning in evidence. If you happen upon a book, it is EVIDENCE of a writer.

Speculating aliens wrote DNA begs the question of who wrote the alien DNA. There is only one answer. All you got is denial.

 

[Lapidem]

You are drowning in evidence. If you happen upon a book, it is EVIDENCE of a writer.

Speculating aliens wrote DNA begs the question of who wrote the alien DNA. There is only one answer. All you got is denial.

Sigh. No humility.

Just endless recycling of the same BS.

You have NO evidence. Neither do I.

There are lots of possibilities of who or what could have been the creator of human DNA programming. We simply do not know. It really is not hard to concede this. If you had any honesty at all you would equally concede it.

 

[Wrangler]

No humility.

Agreed. You have no humility.

More EVIDENCE is Creation, itself. The Atheist position is illogical, that Everything Came From Nothing. The Big Bang Theory is the story of Creation in scientific terms.

I know. You’ll speculate another answer …. No evidence required when burden is on you. Agreed. You have no humility.

 

[bbyrd009]

You're becoming quite surreal now. Are you genuinely suggesting that a loving parent would deliberately allow their 5yr old daughter to be sexually abused/raped ?!! And pray tell, what is the 5yr old girl doing wrong that warrants learning some kind of lesson?!!
You need to think this through again imho. What you are suggesting is very sick

pls already
i am suggesting an analogy that might be pertinent, ignoring for the moment that you happen to be fixated on child molestation rather than one of the million other things, that will all more or less get fixed when the human will decides to fix them.

and dwelling on some one of these does not negate the fact that life has never been better than it is right now, by virtually any measure you could come up with, and we even have standards and websites for this

I haven't decided either of those things. I've simply realised that the defacto Christian concept of god is an utterly ludicrous myth

well congratch
but the Bible would tell you that anyway right

The proof that there is no all-powerful AND all-loving entity is all around us with examples like the sexual abuse of innocent kids

no, it isnt, you have merely chosen that as a standard in ignorance, bc you think you have a better idea, when you do not. God does not sexually abuse children, so ipso facto your argument is specious, and you have no idea whether your idea might not incur even more suffering down the road, and Yah has already made clear that you might find yourself having to EAT your children if you make poor enough choices and refuse to hear, so id say get a better concept of God, or bam assume that you have some proof otherwise that One even exists, but understand that that does not necessarily make it true—because to do so means that you are sure that you know more than whatever created everything you call real, which you cannot even detect 95% of, according to our finest minds.

and you can be pissed off at God all you like too, so what, join the club. Yah does not have to conform to your desires, nor are you required to understand, if you dont want to. Lots of other things, even worse, happen all the time, and lots of ppl also put a stop to them, or reveal them, which the truth always eventually comes out anyway, so once again it really becomes a matter of where you choose to put your focus

you want to focus on the bad and proclaim that God does not exist bc He does not comport with your judgement of what is good v what is evil? So poof, there you are, but recognize that you are making statements about yourself, more than God, ok?

 

[Wrangler]

There are lots of possibilities of who or what could have been the creator of human DNA programming. We simply do not know. It really is not hard to concede this. If you had any honesty at all you would equally concede it.

No. It is who who equate falsely what we KNOW with mere speculation. It is not possible there are any other answers for Creation and Life. None.

These make up the strongest proofs of God’s existence; the logical necessity of a First Cause. First to matter. Second to life.

 

[bbyrd009]

I haven't suggested the notion of an all-powerful and all-loving parent. However it's quite possible for a parent to be extremely loving and benevolent and such a person would never stand by and watch their child be raped. They would take action.

so bam take some action then, but this notion that God could just poof it all away were He so inclined is surely a highly simplistic one, that grants Personality and even humanity to God, when God is Spirit, not flesh, that He should reason like you or i do

not even taking into account that for all you know God makes sure ppl who perpetrate acts like that die horribly from cancer or something if they do not repent. You seek a childish Bewitched-type instant justice that just isnt realistic, even if it makes for good tv
if youll allow me to be frank

 

[Jim B]

Yes, but only one God has paid the price.

It's not really worth discussing anything with Lapidem. He is just an atheist who has come to a Christian forum to argue with everyone.

 

[bbyrd009]

So you don't believe the Bible recounts The Great Flood?

um, i am aware that there was no worldwide flood, and also that flood myths permeate every culture on earth, so i expect an analogy is being made, most likely about the Bronze Age Collapse, adapted from the Epic of Gilgamesh almost surely. That Nehushtan was made of bronze and some other clues in the Bible figure into that, but if youre asking me if a guy named Noach literally built an ark and housed literal animals etc, i would say that that should be read with different eyes

 

[bbyrd009]

It's not the abuser I care about. It's the abused like the love of your life. Nothing that happens to the abuser heals or changes the damage done to the abused. If the Christian God existed he could prevent this from happening. He doesn't do so.

ergo a more important principle might be the point, although i dont see anything preventing you from preventing that stuff happening as hard as you can, and you def exist right
or iow how might you expect this theoretical God to do this prevention thing, anyway? Hocus-pocus? again, maybe good tv, but reality just dang refuses to conform to your expectations huh. personally i suspect that child abuse is a symptom, and i would address the cause if anything, but then we are after all living in an Empire in the Decline/decadence stage, and i think that comes with the territory

but at “He doesnt do so” wadr you do not even know that for a fact, as He might easily be doing a lot more preventing than you ever will, even if it isnt conforming to your immediate timeline like you would like
who knows

 

[Gottservant]

It's not really worth discussing anything with Lapidem. He is just an atheist who has come to a Christian forum to argue with everyone.

The Holy Spirit will stop me, when I've had enough.

 

[Lapidem]

so bam take some action then, but this notion that God could just poof it all away were He so inclined is surely a highly simplistic one, that grants Personality and even humanity to God, when God is Spirit, not flesh, that He should reason like you or i do

I think you misunderstand who I am an the part I play here. I don't actually expect any of thee things to occur because I know that the defacto Christian concept of the all-powerful all-loving god is a mythical nonsense. I know nothing will be "poofed" away because there is no all-powerful entity to "poof" it away. I mention these things to expose the lies of the church and its concept of God which has duped and bewitched so many weak-minded people. I'm making such people confront the reality of the world they exist in and the absurdity of the proposition that the church has put before them and entranced them with.

I know that the true source is not flesh, of course I do ! It's a life force, a universal quintessence that pervades every living thing. It's unhelpful to refer to it as "god" because of how bastardised that term has now become due to the religious zealots. It is part of the universe, an unseen matrix that we can tap into if we know how to do it. We are part of it and it is part of us.

not even taking into account that for all you know God makes sure ppl who perpetrate acts like that die horribly from cancer or something if they do not repent. You seek a childish Bewitched-type instant justice that just isnt realistic, even if it makes for good tv
if youll allow me to be frank

I don't seek anything of the sort bbyrdd009. I raise the issue only to highlight the absurdity of the Christian concept of the all-powerful all-loving god. If you read my posts elsewhere you'll see that I say that the universe has no concept of right or wrong. The universe kills billions of life forms all the time. A star exploding here, a red giant there destroying all neighbouring planets and any life on them. Right and wrong are human concepts. Societal inventions used to control people and establish a ruling order. The universe will wipe humans out in time just as millions of other species have been wiped out. However that part of the quintessence which is within us will be released from the gross matter which currently holds it (our bodies). It's an on-going process of purification. As per alchemy.

 

[Gottservant]

I think you misunderstand who I am an the part I play here. [...] I raise the issue only to highlight the absurdity of the Christian concept of the all-powerful all-loving god. [...]

The more absurd you think it is, the more absurd it becomes.

 

[Lapidem]

well congratch
but the Bible would tell you that anyway right

Yes, if one had the "eyes to see" to understand the real messages within it. Unfortunately most do not as is evident from the other poor souls posting here, lost in the entranced spells that have been placed upon them, blinded by piousness and their own ego.

God does not sexually abuse children, so ipso facto your argument is specious

Of course God doesn't because THAT God doesn't exist i.e. the ridiculous Christian concept of God or "cult of sol" as you like to refer to it, the Mithraic stuff et al. But those entranced in the Church spells can't accept a simple statement like that. You have to confront them with the logical implication of their absurd beliefs which is that if there were an Omni-everything entity then innocent kids would not get abused and there would be no threats of eternal torment and hell and all the other crapola.

and you have no idea whether your idea might not incur even more suffering down the road, and Yah has already made clear that you might find yourself having to EAT your children if you make poor enough choices and refuse to hear, so id say get a better concept of God

Again it's not my concept of god at all. I'm simply exposing the absurdity of the concept of god that the Church peddles. Exposing the lies.

and you can be pissed off at God all you like too, so what, join the club.

How can I be p*ssed off at something that does not exist?

Yah does not have to conform to your desires, nor are you required to understand, if you dont want to. Lots of other things, even worse, happen all the time, and lots of ppl also put a stop to them, or reveal them, which the truth always eventually comes out anyway, so once again it really becomes a matter of where you choose to put your focus

Yep agreed. The universal life force/energy is what it is. It's not a person imho though it may have a form of consciousness that we are part of. Are you familiar with the process of tapping into that Matrix by using both the heart and mind? Setting the Will in the mind of what you want/desire and then establishing the feeling/emotion in the heart of having that desired thing or outcome as if it had already happened?

you want to focus on the bad and proclaim that God does not exist bc He does not comport with your judgement of what is good v what is evil?

I want to expose the absurdity and fallacy of the defacto Christian concept of god because that concept patently does not comport with the plethora of evidence around us. I want people to confront reality instead of being brainwashed by the psychological system of control wielded by the church to control their hearts and minds and stifle their spiritual progression.

So poof, there you are, but recognize that you are making statements about yourself, more than God, ok?

I am god (a part thereof) , and god is me. One and the same. Though using the term god is misleading of course, it does not mean the god of the silly Christian dogma.

 

[Gottservant]

Yes, if one had the "eyes to see" to understand the real messages within it.
[...]
I want people to confront reality instead of being brainwashed by the psychological system of control wielded by the church to control their hearts and minds and stifle their spiritual progression.


I am god (a part thereof) , and god is me. One and the same.

You may be God, but are you Crucified?

Only the true God, Lives no matter how He dies.

 

[Lapidem]

if youre asking me if a guy named Noach literally built an ark and housed literal animals etc, i would say that that should be read with different eyes

Oh I am quite well aware of that. The story of Noah is simply another allegorical tale highlighting aspects of alchemy, its processes and the colours which are seen in the alchemists flask during the Great Work. The core colours of that process are White, which then becomes Black (the putrefaction stage) then White again and finally Red. (The white and red stones).

The Black putrefaction stage is often allegorically referred to as "The Crow" or "The Raven". The white of course is often represented by a dove.

Genesis 19:6-12
"And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made:
And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth.
Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground;
But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark,
for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her,
and pulled her in unto him into the ark. And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent
forth the dove out of the ark; And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth
was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.
And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more."

The "earth" is the substance in the alchemists flask that is undergoing changes over time. The processes of calcination and cohobation dry the substance or saturate the substance.

Here's another reference for those with "eyes to see"

Song of Solomon 5:10-16:
"My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand. His head is as the most fine gold, his locks are bushy, and black as a raven. His eyes are as the eyes of doves by the rivers of waters, washed with milk, and fitly set. "

Same message, same colours highlighted.

Revelation 2:17:
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of
the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."

Key aspect here is that you have to physically EAT the substance. You don't get the benefit from believing in anything or anyone. You have to have this special substance, this elixir, the white and red stones of alchemy. For in them are contained the great amounts of the universal life energy the body needs to sustain its form in perfect health and on an indefinite basis.

Jesus gave a stark warning about this but again using allegorical terminology:

John 6:53-58:
"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever."

Jesus is saying very clearly that unless you eat and drink the white/red stones you have no life in you, meaning that your very limited supply of universal life energy that you were born with is depleting and you'll die unless you physically take in more of it by eating / drinking the white and red stones (elixirs).

The church won't teach its followers this because it is either wholly ignorant or because those at the top of the human food chain have the elixirs and don't want everyone else to have them. They don't want every human on earth to become immortal and in perfect health because then they would have no power, they would no longer be the rulers at the top of the mountain. The world as we know it would collapse. No need for banks and money, no need for pharmaceuticals and the medical industry. People would be free. The despots sitting at the top would become the same as everyone else.

Genesis 3:22:
"And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”"

Those at the top want to stay there and keep the rest of humanity down.

Genesis 19:1-3
"And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged; The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained; And the waters returned from off the earth continually:"

Another passage of the allegorical story highlighting the alchemical processes. The "windows of heaven were stopped" means the glass flask must be properly sealed (hermetic seal) so the vapours inside do not escape. The "rain from heaven" refers to the condensate (dew) at the top of the glass flask that previously rained down on the substance in the flask. The "waters returned from off the earth continually" refers to the on-going process of cohobation where the flask is given gentle warmth (like incubation) which causes a vapour (or mist) to rise up (separating the waters) and which condenses at the top of the flask as dew, and then falls back down as rain like a microcosm of our own Earth weather system. As Above, So Below.

Genesis 2:4-7: "This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."

I hope you have the eyes to see these messages. I can only take the horse to the water, it must make its own choice to drink.

 

[Wrangler]

Why should God act to stop human suffering when we have not followed his commands?

Why should God care that humans suffer when that is the consequence of our choices (not followed his laws)?

God is giving you a choice. Choose life - through his son Jesus - or perish. Choose wisely.

Two unanswered questions @Lapidem. You've gone this far. These questions deserve to be answered. You invoked the Atheist mantra that 'God is either powerless or indifferent to human suffering and either way, he doesn't deserve to be worshipped.' These questions turn that mantra on its head; highlighting not how depraved the almighty is but how depraved we are.

1. Why should YHWH act to stop human suffering when we have not followed his commands?
2. Why should YHWH care that humans suffer when that is the consequence of our choices (not followed his laws)?

Regarding the 5-yo girl, you falsely claimed she is innocent. (She may be innocent according to human, legal standards but not divine standards). No one is innocent before God. I was reminded of that in this morning's devotional reading @ Number 16. Some 250 men rebelled against Moses.

They claimed equality of holiness with Moses and demanded the power to make decisions for the tribe, in opposition to Moses acting like a dictator in their estimation. Moses told them to prepare to meet their Maker at the Tent of Meeting, to see who is holy. (YHWH previously commanded only Moses and Aaron may approach the Tent of Meeting).

YHWH told the men who remained loyal to Moses to separate from the rebels. The ground opened up and YWHW burnt them alive as they fell to hell. Here's the interesting thing, this did not only happen to them but to their entire household. The Bible tells story after story of corporate guilt, collective punishment on 'the land,' and generations dealing with the consequences of sin. Sin is a big deal, a much bigger deal than today's society wants to admit.

People not grounded in the truth - Atheist and Christian, alike - confuse one being "judged" for one's sins with dealing with the consequences of another's sin. For instance, America's leaders have created $32T debt. Those who acted to create the debt will not pay for it. Sin is much, much worse as we are dealing with cosmic consequences, not merely financial.


They have all fallen away;
together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.
Psalm 53:3