If Baptism could save then there is no need for the shed Blood of Jesus.

[Michiah-Imla]

If Baptism could save then there is no need for the shed Blood of Jesus.

Baptism is part of what believers partake in without exception as laid out in scripture.

Then there’s the scripture that says:

Matthew 3:11 KJVS
[11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire

 

[justbyfaith]

there is nothing in Mark 16 that even hints at water baptism,

So baptism is not in water, iyo?

It should be clear that the first mention of baptism in scripture has John the Baptist baptizing people in the Jordan river (i.e. in water!)

It is another lie from the pit that baptism is not in water.

We know from Ephesians 4:5 that there is one baptism.

So, in saying that baptism is in the Spirit, you are saying that it is not in water?

It should be clear that baptism is both in water and the Spirit (John 3:5); and that this is all one baptism. Even as the Holy Ghost is promised, in Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39, to those who are baptized in water, as the result of being baptized in water.

 

[justbyfaith]

I did believe, and I was baptized (by God) and later, obeyed God by being immersed in eater, but I was saved long before that event, and would remain saved even if I died before that event

You may have believed unto righteousness; but you were not saved until you confessed (alongside of water baptism) unto salvation (Romans 10:9-10).

 

[mailmandan]

first thanks for the reply, second, we're sealed until his returen to recieved our new bodies, then we're saved ETERNALLY. as we speak, we're kept,

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

We are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5)

yes, we're saved by faith, which is HOPE. scripture, Romans 8:24 "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" (BINGO, if you are already saved NOW, (eternal fife), why are you still hoping/by Faith for it?...... well).

Just because we have not yet received our glorified bodies and saved from the PRESENCE of sin, does not mean that we have not yet been saved from the PENALTY of sin. John 5:24 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Romans 8:25 "But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it." so are you waiting? yea, I thought so, as all of us, dead or alive.

Waiting for the redemption of our bodies (Romans 8:23) still does not mean that we have not yet been saved by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8)

it's by FAITH that we're saved? and what is Faith? answer, Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." just as the apostle stated above... "Faith is the substance of things ________ For", there it is, as said it you already have it why hope for it. yes, one is saved right now by FAITH, by guarantee, (which is solid), but RIGHT NOW you're not living eternally, NOT NOW. if you want evidence, just keep on living for a while, and if the Lord Jesus haven't returned yet, see what will happen to you. ... (yes) in the ground. but, that's why there is a resurrection. if all who died went stright to heaven and recieved their new bodies... why a need to resurrecti? answer, because they are waiting just like all of us.

I don't already have my glorified body, but I still have already been saved by grace through faith. I'm still waiting on the resurrection, but I'm not still waiting on having been saved by grace trough faith. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things hope for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:7). There are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. Justification 2. Ongoing Sanctification 3. Glorification

see mailmandan, you're saved by FAITH, in that we all have that guarantee of SALVATION, because we all have the same assurance of that salvation, THE HOLY SPIRIT.

I already see that.

Joel 2:32 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." (delieverance here is SALVATION)

Acts 2:21 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

shall is a FUTURE TENSE desigination. that's where FATH comes in at until the Lord returns. BINGO.

The future tense of salvation is glorification. 1 Peter 1:9 - receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. Not to be confused with "have been" (past tense with ongoing present results) saved by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8) This is justification. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, "having been" (past tense with ongoing present results) justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[justbyfaith]

Just because we have not yet received our glorified bodies and saved from the PRESENCE of sin, does not mean that we have not yet been saved from the PENALTY of sin. John 5:24 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

How do you reconcile that with Ezekiel 33:11-20?

Not to be confused with "have been" (past tense with ongoing present results) saved by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8)

Actually, that verse says, "For by grace are ye saved (?) through faith..."

Romans 5:1 - Therefore, "having been" (past tense with ongoing present results) justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Better.

 

[mailmandan]

You also skipped Acts 8, 10 and 19 where folks were very specifically commanded to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ...

New converts are commanded to be water baptized BECAUSE they are saved and not in order to become saved. (Acts 10:47)

....all stemming from Peter saying baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins in 2:38.

You skipped it all and offered an alternative view by cherry picking.

Go back to Acts 2:38 (the original instruction) and build on that.

Acts 2:38 is grace,

It's you who cherry picks and fails to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. Instead you isolate pet verses, build doctrine on them and ignore the rest.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Acts 2:38 does not negate Acts 10:43-47. Build on that.

Jesus said He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation is the result of unbelief and not on the lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Peter wrote Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (1Pet 3:21)

Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. (NKJV, NASB, NIV). The ESV reads ..eight persons, were brought safely through water. Noah and his family saved "through" water does not mean that the water is what literally saved them, rather, the ARK is what literally saved them from the destructive flood waters. So they were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the wicked came in contact with the water and they all perished.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So baptism is not in water, iyo?

It should be clear that the first mention of baptism in scripture has John the Baptist baptizing people in the Jordan river (i.e. in water!)

It is another lie from the pit that baptism is not in water.

We know from Ephesians 4:5 that there is one baptism.

So, in saying that baptism is in the Spirit, you are saying that it is not in water?

It should be clear that baptism is both in water and the Spirit (John 3:5); and that this is all one baptism. Even as the Holy Ghost is promised, in Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39, to those who are baptized in water, as the result of being baptized in water.

Well let’s see

john,

he said he indeed baptized with water, but one comes after him he will baptized with the HS (also called HS baptism)

Jesus,

he asked if the disciples were able to be baptized with the same baptism he was being baptized with (no water)

paul, spoke of the fact the jews in the OT were baptized into moses (no water)

Finally the Greek

Baptizo to be immersed, used most often in the form of adding dye to a fabric to give it color. In fact a baptized in modern day would be a person who dyes fabric. Many of us may remember in school when we the dyed our T-shirts and gave them neat designs, that in fact is a form of baptism.

classic Greek also spoke of baptism, where a soldier would baptize their sword in blood, in a ceremonial way. baptizing in blood of something is found in many Ancient Greek literature,

It is also used as someone being overwhelmed with fear or overwhelmed with thing that need done that they are overcome. A ship which is overwhelmed with water to the point it sinks is said to have been baptized (overwhelmed)

baptizing in water as in ceremonial washing was just really a religious thing.

you my friend, need to study more.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You may have believed unto righteousness; but you were not saved until you confessed (alongside of water baptism) unto salvation (Romans 10:9-10).

Nope

I was saved when I was baptized by God the Holy Spirit into the death and burial of Christ, where my sins were washed away, then baptized into Christ himself and his body,

your faith is in works my friend, repent and come to Christ and let him baptize you with the baptism of Christ, as John the Baptist proclaimed

I indeed baptize with water, be who who comes after, he will baptize with the HS.

failure to do this will cause Christ to have to perform his second baptism, which is to baptize in fire, where the flames never go out, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,

 

[Eternally Grateful]

New converts are commanded to be water baptized BECAUSE they are saved and not in order to become saved. (Acts 10:47)

It's you who cherry picks and fails to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. Instead you isolate pet verses, build doctrine on them and ignore the rest.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Acts 2:38 does not negate Acts 10:43-47. Build on that.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation is the result of unbelief and not on the lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. (NKJV, NASB, NIV). The ESV reads ..eight persons, were brought safely through water. Noah and his family saved "through" water does not mean that the water is what literally saved them, rather, the ARK is what literally saved them from the destructive flood waters. So they were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the wicked came in contact with the water and they all perished.

One must wonder how abraham got saved, and moses and king david, since they were never baptized.

 

[07-07-07]

If Baptism could save then there is no need for the shed Blood of Jesus.

This is indeed the core of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Water can't wash away sin, only the blood of Jesus can do that.

1 John 1
[6] If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
[7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 

[07-07-07]

Churches have substituted going to Church, being baptized in water and turning a new leaf for the born-again experience. It's false. The born-again experience comes from above, a miracle from God. Once born again, going to Church and being baptized in water are fruit of your new man.

 

[101G]

I don't already have my glorified body, but I still have already been saved by grace through faith.

100% correct.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Michiah-Imla]

One must wonder how abraham got saved, and moses and king david, since they were never baptized.

It doesn’t have to be a hard line.

All faithful believers get baptized. It’s not an option to not get baptized (or not get circumcised in the case of Abraham). The book of Acts is abundantly clear in this matter.

 

[Mungo]

So, you aren't saved before you are baptized? The thief on the cross could not have gone to paradise if that were true.

Baptism became the way God gave us for salvation after the thief on the cross.
It was after the cross, after Jesus rose again, that Jesus said: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved"
Do you believe Jesus?

The verse in Peter plainly says that the water doesn't save you, so how can you have it both ways?

The verse in Peter very clearly says that baptism does save us.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (KJV)
Baptism, which corresponds to this now saves you (RSV)
baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you (NRSV)
This prefigured baptism, which saves you now.(NAB)
And this water symbolises baptism that now saves you (NIV)
also to which an antitype doth now save us—baptism (YLT)
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (HCSB)
which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism (ASV)
Baptism, which is like that water, now saves you (GWT)
There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (NKJV)
That was a type of the baptism that now saves you (CCB)
Baptism, which is symbolized by that water, now saves you also (ISVNT)

The rest of 1Pet 3:21 explains in what way baptism saves us. To deny that baptism saves us is a clear denial of scripture.

There's lots of people that come to God on their death beds and can't be baptized. Is God going to tell them "Sorry, too bad! It was all about the water!"

Baptism the the normative way of salvation that God has given us. It is the way he he has told us. Refusal of baptism is disobedience and disbelief.
However God is loving and merciful. We believe he can, and does, provide salvation for those in the circumstances you suggest. Another example would be someone who dies crossing to road while on his way to be baptised. But those are exceptions that God makes, not us.
We do it God's way not our way.

 

[Mungo]

I hope your joking, he said it multiple times, most noticeably Eph 1-2 and titus 3

No I am not joking.
Can you give proper references not whole chapters.

I repeat again, nowhere does Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, claim that we are saved by faith alone.

 

[Truther]

And here in lies the problem

If we could grab the rope and save ourselves this would be a good saying

but we can’t grab the rope. God has to grab us and pull us. But only if we are willing he will not pull against our will

Acts 2:38 is the rope.

Grab it.

 

[101G]

Acts 2:38 is the rope.

Grab it.

Correct, as the verse before, one must ACT on God's Word. Acts 2:37 "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Remember, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Truther]

New converts are commanded to be water baptized BECAUSE they are saved and not in order to become saved. (Acts 10:47)

It's you who cherry picks and fails to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. Instead you isolate pet verses, build doctrine on them and ignore the rest.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Acts 2:38 does not negate Acts 10:43-47. Build on that.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation is the result of unbelief and not on the lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. (NKJV, NASB, NIV). The ESV reads ..eight persons, were brought safely through water. Noah and his family saved "through" water does not mean that the water is what literally saved them, rather, the ARK is what literally saved them from the destructive flood waters. So they were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the wicked came in contact with the water and they all perished.

Wrong...


37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.



....in order to obtain the remission of sins.

Baptism is a burial.

You, Dan the mailman, bury folks alive.

 

[Truther]

Correct, as the verse before, one must ACT on God's Word. Acts 2:37 "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Remember, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Amen!

 

[justbyfaith]

Nope

I was saved when I was baptized by God the Holy Spirit into the death and burial of Christ, where my sins were washed away, then baptized into Christ himself and his body,

your faith is in works my friend, repent and come to Christ and let him baptize you with the baptism of Christ, as John the Baptist proclaimed

I indeed baptize with water, be who who comes after, he will baptize with the HS.

failure to do this will cause Christ to have to perform his second baptism, which is to baptize in fire, where the flames never go out, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,

Believing is unto righteousness and confession is unto salvation, according to the passage (Romans 10:9-10).

I am not going to hell for making that confession unto salvation; if that were the case then salvation is unto hell and then the lake of fire. Do you really want to go there? I might even be able to prove that to you from holy scripture; but it is a doctrine of devils.