It was on Catholic radio, told by a priest or catholic teacher. So are last rites necessary or not?
If Baptism could save then there is no need for the shed Blood of Jesus.
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It's the pledge that saves, then, obviously. If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart you will be saved, whether there's water involved or not.
Yes, but those are the results of faith. Faith does produce works, but only faith saves.
Jesus said mustard seed faith would move mountains. Faith does act, but those acts aren't earning us salvation.
They are not necessary. But they are advisable if possible.
Without knowing exactly what was said, by whom, and the context I cannot comment on what you or someone else thought they heard.
Incorrect. Jesus gave us baptism. That is when he saves us.
You can do it your own way or Jesus' way. Only one way is definitely salvific.
No acts earns us salvation. It is a free gift. That does not mean there is nothing to do to receive that free gift.
Galatians 2:16
Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Romans 3:28
For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 4:5
And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
Romans 4:3
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
I came across this on a forum some time ago:
It [Baptism] is an act of faith and obedience. The power of baptism is the power of the Holy Spirit. It is Jesus who baptises us. The pouring of water is symbolic of the Holy Spirit’s cleansing us and renewing us. Just before his ascension Jesus tied the normal means of salvation to baptism (Mk 16:16) and made baptism an integral part of the gospel proclamation (Mt 28:19-20)
We are saved by grace through faith, but it is in baptism when we profess that faith that God pours his grace into us and renews us.
Here are some explicit scriptures on how we are saved:
Belief in Jesus: Paul(Acts 16:31)
baptism: (1Pet 3:20-21)
belief + baptism: Jesus (Mk 16;16)
confessing with your lips + believing God raised Jesus from the dead: Paul (Rom 10:9)
calling on the Lord’s name: Peter (Acts 2:21), Paul (Rom 10:13)
grace: Peter (Acts 15:11), Paul (Eph 2:5)
grace through faith: Paul (Eph 2:8)
water & spirit: Paul (Titus 3:5)
repentence + baptism: Peter (Acts 2:38, 41, 47)
Will any one do?
Are they alternative routes to salvation?
Or does salvation require all of them?
All of them = saved by grace, given in (water) baptism in which we profess with our lips repentance and faith (belief) in Jesus, are baptised in his name (calling on his name), and are thus born again (renewed) by the Holy Spirit.
Jim B
Well-Known Member
We are "born again", i.e., born of the Spirit, when we accept Jesus as our Savior. Romans 10:9, "... if you a) confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and b) believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Obviously the a) and b) are added by me for emphasis). I don't see baptism here.
Baptism is a rite that symbolically demonstrates burial of the old sinful nature and resurrection of the new person in Christ. It is not a requirement for salvation.
You need to take ALL scripture into account, not just pick a couple of verses.
Jesus made it a normative way for salvation (Mt 16:16)
Jim B
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but there isn't space here to quote ALL Scripture, but what it clearly says can't be disputed. Here is a key verse: " For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life." There is no requirement for baptism.
?? " Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (Matthew 16:16)
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
You guys are going back and forth on this, lets have a little fun with it.
1. There is no wording that says baptism in an option…you can debate what it does…but it is never given as optional.
2. John the Baptist began preaching in the wilderness a baptism for repentance, for the forgiveness of sins. Mark 1:4 Luke 3:3 Now when his cousin Christ came along John said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. John 1:29 Take away the sin of the world, that is what he said. 1st John says, And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
Now what John is doing and what Christ doing is not the same. John is forgiving sins through baptism. This is before the saving blood of Christ.
So that raised the question, where did he get the authority to forgive sins. Christ dealt with those questions from the Jews, and the Jews questioned Christ’s authority to forgive sins. This all happens before the cross, before the saving blood of Christ. So what does this mean?
Just for fun we can find John forgiving individuals of their sins. we can find Christ forgiving individuals of their sins. All before he shed His blood.
3. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1st John 1:9 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace." Ephesians 1:7 etc. This is after the cross, after the saving grace of Christ's blood.
We have a scripture that says He takes away the sin of the world. And that that forgiveness was not just for Christians but for the whole world. We have scriptures that indicate that Christ will forgive our individual Christian sins if we ask and confess.
Now take it for granted you can take all this into consideration and come up with an explanation…maybe more than one, but it makes for a good topic of discussion. A couple hints; I am not talking about universal salvation, nor that Baptism is the instance of salvation. But we are talking about different types of sin under different circumstances. So if you care to mind meld on it…have a blast. Because it is going to lead to a deeper understanding of baptism.
1. There is no wording that says baptism in an option…you can debate what it does…but it is never given as optional.
2. John the Baptist began preaching in the wilderness a baptism for repentance, for the forgiveness of sins. Mark 1:4 Luke 3:3 Now when his cousin Christ came along John said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. John 1:29 Take away the sin of the world, that is what he said. 1st John says, And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
Now what John is doing and what Christ doing is not the same. John is forgiving sins through baptism. This is before the saving blood of Christ.
So that raised the question, where did he get the authority to forgive sins. Christ dealt with those questions from the Jews, and the Jews questioned Christ’s authority to forgive sins. This all happens before the cross, before the saving blood of Christ. So what does this mean?
Just for fun we can find John forgiving individuals of their sins. we can find Christ forgiving individuals of their sins. All before he shed His blood.
3. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1st John 1:9 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace." Ephesians 1:7 etc. This is after the cross, after the saving grace of Christ's blood.
We have a scripture that says He takes away the sin of the world. And that that forgiveness was not just for Christians but for the whole world. We have scriptures that indicate that Christ will forgive our individual Christian sins if we ask and confess.
Now take it for granted you can take all this into consideration and come up with an explanation…maybe more than one, but it makes for a good topic of discussion. A couple hints; I am not talking about universal salvation, nor that Baptism is the instance of salvation. But we are talking about different types of sin under different circumstances. So if you care to mind meld on it…have a blast. Because it is going to lead to a deeper understanding of baptism.
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
So you go with the argument that water baptism was not necessary for salvation before Pentecost but after Pentecost it is? That’s the typical argument by those who attempt to “get around” the thief on the cross receiving salvation through faith but was unable to get water baptized before he died that same day.
In Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3 we see that John the Baptist went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
So you admit that this does not teach baptism here was (for) “in order to obtain” the remission of sins? That statement is similar to what we read in Acts 2:38. In both cases baptism is “in regards to/on the basis of” the remission of sins received upon repentance and not in order to obtain the remission of sins.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Amen! John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
You have to remember that God is outside of time; and therefore He can apply what happened later (His death on the Cross) to people who were baptized before He died (so they were forgiven).
That is a perverting of the text...in the kjv it says "should not perish"...
So then,
believe +baptized = shall be saved. (Mark 16:16)
mere believing = should not perish. (John 3:16)
calling on the name of the Lord = shall be saved. (Romans 10:13)
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Yes, the baptism of Acts is specifically in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of the 3000's sins.
John did not say "in the name of Jesus Christ', therefore there was no remission of sins.
This is why the disciples of John had to be rebaptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins(after pentecost) per Acts 19.
John did not have the power to remit sins, though he only preached remission of sins before the death of Christ.
Why no answer to this little question???
Think!! It won't hurt very much!!! Tweak!! Do you say that if an unbeliever gets baptized to please his wife or mother that that baptism saves him==Think some more and face the truth!
Think!! It won't hurt very much!!! Tweak!! Do you say that if an unbeliever gets baptized to please his wife or mother that that baptism saves him==Think some more and face the truth!
Unbelievers don't get baptized.
There are 4 types of "ground" instead.
Stony, wayside, thorny and good ground.
We cannot judge a persons heart.
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