Why look to the OT for NT theology?
What do your preferred definitions say about the character of God?
If Christian Universalism is true, what's the point in evangelism?
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What do your preferred definitions say about the character of God?
Edom serves as an example and warning, like Sodom and Gomorrah....those kingdoms and people were permanently (forever) erased from history, from life. It shows that Satan and his kingdom (this fallen world and its fallen people) will one day likewise suffer the same fate....destruction permanently.
I used to think the smoke rising forever was hyperbole until I realized that God exists outside of time....He is talking from His point of view.
Part of His character is that "I the Lord, do not change." Old and new testaments agree. New testament is the old testament revealed. And what happened to Ananias and Sapphira in the new testament should serve as a warning that God has not changed and will not be mocked. Another part of His character is that He is faithful to His word.........and also faithful and just to have spoken the truth in His word and warned of a coming judgment that forever/permanently seals one's eternal destiny.
I'm willing to be corrected and not afraid to put things to the test....I just did a simple word search of "forever" (aion) and "eterrnal" (aionios)...to see where/how those words were used in all the new testament scriptures....doing that showed me that those words were interpreted into English correctly in the bible. Those words are being used to convey the idea of forever and eternal.
(I couldn't explain why those Greek words were used....but it comes to me that maybe it's because an age/eon goes beyond the length of one's life in this world, so it coneys the idea of something carrying on beyond this life...in that way it is not inaccurate, just perhaps understated....which the bible does often express things in an understated way, as well as being more dramatic and using hyperbole at other times, I think to wake people up and convey the sense of utmost urgency.)
New topic:
Does the Old Testament teach a pagan religion that Jesus came to overthrow?
Many have noticed the disconnect between the Old Testament and the New Testament. Even positing that there are two different Gods described. And what about the comparative messages? The old Testament as unyielding law and the New Testament and merciful grace. And Jesus certainly didn't...
www.christianityboard.com
You are simply agreeing with the translation bias and their lexicon.
Here is someone who speaks the language.
No I'm not, I'm testing the theory....I'm looking and comparing scripture with scripture, as I had suggested you do. See what you think:
Jhn 12:32-34
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
This he said, signifying what death he should die.
The people answered him, We have heard out of the law (using the word “olam”)that Christ abideth for ever (aion) and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up (killed/crucified)? who is this Son of man?
This above is clearly comparing having an end of life to not having an end (living forever/eternally).
Heb 5:5
So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever (aion) after the order of Melchisedec.
Now here is a direct quote of Psa 110:4 in which the term “for ever” is “olam” in Hebrew which lilterally means forever, never ending and has no reference to a time limited age:
Psa 110:4
The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever (olam) after the order of Melchizedek.
The translation of aion into forever also agrees with this:
Heb 7:3
Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Now look at this:
Luk 1:32-33
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever (aion) and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Which agrees with this:
Isa 9:7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever (olam). The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Well, just from my own little study here, from a small sampling of examples, I conclude that the scholars who translated the bible into English weren’t being biased or misleading when they translated the word “aion” in the Greek into the word “forever” in English…there were sound reasons for them doing so. The word forever whether in the Greek aion or in the Hebrew olam means having no end.
Unless we really believe the risen Christ is only going to exist for an age…? And that when mortality puts on immortality that the saints will only go on to live for an age and not for eternity (aionios)..? What does immortality mean? I don’t think there is any room to interpret “immortality” as a length of time that has an end and only lasts for an age...? It is clearly is making a distinction between temporal and eternal (aionios). We inherit eternal (aionios) life, not life just for an age.
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It means both are true. The past, the present and the future are made of ages.
- Romans 16:25
Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,
- 1 Corinthians 10:11
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.
- Ephesians 2:7
in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
- Ephesians 3:9
and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
- Colossians 1:26
the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people.
- Hebrews 9:26
Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
- Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
Well, yes, If I'm understanding, there are places where the word "aion" is used in a more literal sense. (This is why we need to rightly divide. the scriptures....dividing between literal and figurative etc...ears to hear what the Spirit is saying.). And this age/world/order has an end as the scriptures testify....the age/kingdom/world/order to come will never end; it is eternal; it lasts forever; it is everlasting. As I'm understanding it, all this was spoken to and applied to the Jew/Israel first, and then to the Gentiles. The age ended for the Jew/Israel with the wrath of 70AD...end of the old covenant order/age and beginning of a new order which will never end in the sense that the kingdom of God will never end. But this age/order will end for the Gentiles (times of the Gentiles) too when God judges the world and shuts the door to the possibility of entering the new covenant/gospel/salvation so to speak.
But we were talking specifically about "eternity" and how long the destruction/perdition that is warned about lasts. As I've been showing, the scriptures do seem to be saying it will have no end, old and new testaments agreeing. It lasts forever, everlasting.....there is no room to suggest there will be a coming back from it.......just as eternal life is everlasting and lasts forever....the age or ages to come.
The issue is about eternal life or no eternal life....it doesn't seem that complicated. Not everyone is "appointed" to eternal life.
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It's according to His foreknowledge...."elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" 1 Peter 1:2
But lets' not get away from the point, the point being that clearly not all will receive eternal life.
Act 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained (tasso – appointed/ordained/determined) to eternal life believed.
It’s self-evident that those who did not believe were not ordained/appointed to eternal life. Which of course means that not all receive eternal life.
Forgot to post this earlier, as regard to the usage of the word aioin:
Isa 45:17
But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting (olam) salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end (olam).
Eph 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end (aioin aion). Amen.
Not in this lifetime, but "each in turn".
1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes,
those who belong to him.
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over
the kingdom to God the Father
after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
"...then when He comes, THOSE WHO BELONG TO HIM. " Only those who belong to Him will be made alive. All who are "in Christ" will be made alive. Then the END will come.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn...
1 Corinthians 15:22 is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ. Or better, if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.
If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.
The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent. So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.
Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.
But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).
Therefore, all means all in both instances.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
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If one is still in Adam they are still dead........it is only IN CHRIST that all will be made alive who are in Christ. That is what it is saying. No one outside of Christ will be resurrected to eternal life. They remain dead in their sins (although they will be resurrected so as to be judged.) The bible simply doesn't teach that unbelievers/sinners will inherit eternal life....it consistently teaches and faithfully warns the opposite. Even believers who fall away or mock God by a sinful lifestyle won't inherit eternal life either.
Dan 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting (olam) life, and some to shame and everlasting (olam) contempt.
And just to remind you that I'm not a "fan of eternal torment". In recent years I've come to believe there will be "annihilation" for those who are outside of Christ, who die in their sins and are not in the Lamb's book of life and that they will be in torment/fear prior, which knowing the perfect justice of God I believe will only be in exact proportion to their sins. And everlasting /eternal punishment means they will not come back from being annihilated/destroyed, it will be permanent, lasting forever. It is a matter of either eternal life or perish like the beasts of the earth.
We can judge only by what we can see.....and our human sympathies will tend to side with our fellow humans if we are wired that way.....but God knows the heart, and He says "the heart is deceitfully wicked, who can know it"? He knows way more about what is on the inside of a person than we do....and also knows all the evil deeds they have done in secret. If we could see as He does we would change our minds. If we could even see inside our own hearts as He does we would be that much more grateful for His mercy. Without the redemption that is found in Christ, people are only reaping what they have sown and what they are....It is very wrong and unjust to suggest or accuse God of being unjust or of having character flaws because of not granting eternal life to the unredeemed. We sure do not know or see better than Him....that is why we need to just BELIEVE Him in every instance, because He is never wrong and is not a man that He should lie.
St. SteVen said:
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn...
"For as" and "so in" means "in the same way."
Just as death came to all through Adam, so life will come to all through Christ. (But each in turn...)
Don't you believe that all who are in Christ now have ALREADY been made alive? (crossed over from death to life) See John 5:24
Who are these peoples included in "all" who are yet to be made alive?
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn...
The "all" applies to both Adam and Christ.
"For as" and "so in" means "in the same way."
Just as death came to all through Adam, so life will come to all through Christ. (But each in turn...)
Don't you believe that all who are in Christ now have ALREADY been made alive? (crossed over from death to life) See John 5:24
Who are these peoples included in "all" who are yet to be made alive?
Annihilationism is a contradictory doctrine to Damnationism. (ECT)
Both are contradictory to Universalism.
The whole context of that chapter is the resurrection of the dead. It is talking to and about Christians...reassuring believers that just as Jesus was resurrected from the dead, so will we also, who are in Christ. Death came upon all through Adam's line, who were born of him, physically.....now life can come to all through Christ's line....when we are born of Him spiritually (ie, who are in Christ).
Don't you believe that all who are in Christ now have ALREADY been made alive? (crossed over from death to life) See John 5:24
Who are these peoples included in "all" who are yet to be made alive?
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn...
John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life
and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
We who believe have been made alive and redeemed spiritually....but we haven't been resurrected from the dead yet....our bodies haven't yet been redeemed, and that is what that chapter is discussing. The passage itself tells us what is meant by "each in turn".....Christ the firstfruits had to be resurrected first, and "afterward THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S at His coming". This is to reveal the meaning of the firstfruit offerings of the old covenant, how they were a foreshadowing of the Messiah. Firstfruits of the harvest were offered to God, that the remainder of the harvest be safely ripened and brought in, as it were.
And what happens at His coming....the wheat are gathered into the barn but sadly the tares are burned. The way you are reading 1 Cor 15 doesn't jive with the other scrips that speak on the subject. "As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man".. What happened in the days of Noah?......only those IN the Ark were saved. "No man can see God and live"..."our God is a consuming fire"....one must be hid in the cleft of the Rock because when He comes every eye will see Him...those who are not hid IN the Rock (in Christ) will not live. ALL the scriptures point to Christ as being the means to salvation from the ultimate judgment/wrath...one must believe in Him to be IN Him. And He has to be in us in order for us to also be in Him. " It is by faith are ye saved, and that not of your own lest any man boast." "Confess Jesus with your mouth and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead and you will be saved". There is simply no teaching of those who are not in Christ through faith being saved and inheriting eternal life. All scripture is teaching and faithfully warning the opposite. Jesus said you must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven. Grasping at a few cherry-picked verses is a grasping at straws.
1Pe 4:18
And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”
(It is hard for the righteous to be saved because it costs us to follow/obey Christ....where Jesus said to count the cost - it is not an easy journey and we must endure to the end.)
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