If Heaven is so Great...
- Thread starter Mike Tang 1991
- Start date
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I doubt it. God does not orchestrate the following of evil or the rebellion against himself.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Davy
Well-Known Member
Did He consider the possibility of rebellion when He created Satan perfect in following Him? That is what you're really asking.
Let me ask this, do you have in back of your mind that your own... children could possibly rebel against you someday?
DuckieLady
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I think that you are right about this guy.
I'm gonna go ahead and click that ignore button real quick.
Really bad feelings and not going to get involved.
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Nothing against him, but "Christians" taking an accusatory and condemning tone towards God tends to get my goat.
The Heaven IS Gods Throne.
Isa. 66:1 [1] Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool...
I do not believe Heaven is BAD.
Quite opposite. I believe “The Heaven” is Pure Light and Perfection.
God IS The Creator, The Giver of Life, The Giver of Knowledge, The Giver of Freewill, The Giver of Understanding, and A DIVIDER.
IMO, Knowledge IS Power.
God IS All Knowing, ie. Supreme Power.
Angel-kind were created “with Knowledge”.
Man-kind is created “ignorant”.
Understanding OF ALL Knowledge, IS exclusive to God.
(The Picture I see, is same in Heaven, as on Earth, regarding, Appointments, of Certain Angels, and of Certain men, (Captains if you will), having Charge over directing other Angels and other men, with Intent of their Appointment, to Foster Gods Will.)
We are revealed, (In Scripture), a few particular Names, OF Angels, and OF men...and can Observe their “their own choice of Freewill”...and “their Appointments” appointed unto them, based on “their Freewill”.
Lucifer, (Name), One of Two, Morning Stars, (Descriptive Title) ... Revealing a “appointed” Positions, Divided from Other Called: Angel-spirit-Kind of beings.
FREEWILL...(without Understanding of Knowledge)... Lucifer decides, He would be “suitable” and “capable” TO RISE ABOVE God, and BE “in Charge” of Gods Throne. (THE Heaven).
Inanutshell...No, Lucifers’ Charge over Gods Throne, did not occur. God cast Lucifer Out of The Heaven of Gods “Kingdom”, TO Earth, (with a new name: Satan; new description Adversary OF God; Devil, Serpent, etc. while Satan was allowed to “keep” his Power” (greater than the “ignorant of knowledge”,) men OF Earth, were created and made, and would be the Occupants OF the Earth.
And THERE begins the Beginning of a Man-kind of thing. Created By Gods Hand, Made Alive By Gods Breath of Life....
Man-kind....With TWO Ears and ONE Mouth...And FREEWILL.
Fascinating really. Mankind with TWO Ears. TWO “unseen” spirits...
Each “unseen” spirit, with Full KNOWLEDGE of God, and with “power” to Influence this new “man-Kind” of thing.
This “new man-kind of thing”, fully functional to Hear, be Influenced, BY Each “unseen” spirit....and Freely Choose Which “unseen spirit” TO Trust to Believe.
The “new man-kind of thing”, fully functional “TO use his One Mouth”, TO DECLARE, “which” “unseen spirit”, the man-kind of thing...BELIEVES!
The Bottom line “RESULT” IS: A “true” Declaration by the Mouth of a mankind of thing...according to the mans own “true” word...
IS expressly, Acceptable TO the TWO “unseen” spirits, OF WHICH Man-kind of things...ARE “with” or “without”...Each of the TWO “unseen” spirits.
It is Gods WILL OF DIVISION, Effected By Gods DESIGN of His Creations (of angel-kind and man-kind of beings) to FREELY Choose or FREELY Reject God.
Has “The Heaven”, Gods “Throne”, Gods “kingdom”, become “corrupted”?
THE Heaven...No not Corrupted.
Gods Throne...No not Corrupted.
Gods “Heavenly” Kingdom...Yes Corrupted.
Gods “dry land Earth”...Yes Corrupted.
Some “angel-kind” of beings...Yes Corrupted.
Some “man-kind” of beings...Yes Corrupted.
Gods Supreme Power TO destroy Corruption, DESIRE and ABILITY TO RESTORE Corruption OF His Heavenly Kingdom, His Dry Land Earth, Free-Willing man-kind of living beings...? YES.
Gods Supreme Power and Ability to RESTORE Corrupt angel-kind beings?
Power and Ability...YES
Desire...NO.
Spot on ... Great “Knowledge” is given (by God) To created Angel-Kind spirit beings.
....”Understanding” of Gods Knowledge...IS ALSO given (by God)...”BUT” with “EXCEPTIONS”....”understanding” IS GIVEN by God, to those (angels and man)....WHOSE true Freewill election is “WITH” God....Those WHOSE Freewill election is “AGAINST” God, NO, they DO NOT receive from God, His “understanding” of His “knowledge”.
As far as THE Heaven, (Gods Estate) and Heaven(S) (Angels Estate)...
While Scripture speaks of “Heaven”, (a singular term) there ARE “DIVISIONS” of Heaven....(beyond what a mans EYE can SEE ie sky’s)
While Scripture speaks of “Earth”, (a singular term) there ARE “DIVISIONS” of Earth....(beyond what a mans EYE can SEE ie Ocean borders, Land borders, Mountain, Valley divisions, etc.)
While Gods Glory (Light, Power) is continuously Reflected FOR men TO SEE, Evil, Darkness, Corruption is continuously Reflected FOR men TO SEE...
UNTIL the DAY, God Destroys, Removes, the Corrupt and Makes Manifest to be SEEN, Only that Which IS holy.
Glory to God,
Taken
I agree God (all knowing) Ordained, Allowed, Was Already Prepared for ⅓ of the angels to follow Satan....
But I do not believe “God Chose” angels to follow Satan. More so, God foreknew, the angels FREEWILL “choice” would be to follow Satan.
Glory to God,
Taken
Agree. The big picture hangs on God created and LOVES what He created.
Gods Desire IS that His creations Freely Choose to LOVE GOD ...
True LOVE, must, by default BE a willing choice.
No option, No choice, Forced....IS not “True Love”.
Agree. God already KNOWS, has Prepared, for his creations (angels and man), those who WILL and WILL NOT freely choose to Love Him, ie BE WITH or WITHOUT Him.
Glory to God,
Taken
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
I once heard a minister tell the story of a busload of Hell's people who were
given a 30-day furlough for some R&R in Heaven. They all came back the
first night because God's world was such a bore.
There were no wild parties, no clothing-optional beaches, no bars, no night
clubs, no porn, no gambling, no pigging-out at buffets, no fights, no
profanity, no ribaldry, no free sex, no vulgar late-night comedy, no exotic
dancers, no X-rated movies, no junk food, no tobacco, no marijuana, no
meth, no ecstasy, no LSD, no hunting for sport, no fishing for sport, and no
vices like gambling and prostitution.
And they had trouble seeing their way around. The light in Heaven was so
bright that they had to protect their eyes all the time with welding goggles.
And the hellsters didn't particularly care for the isolation. None of the good
folk in heaven wanted to associate with them: they were ostracized, they
were segregated, and they were quarantined.
Heaven is a pleasant utopia. It's etiquette, its dress code, and its rules of
conduct and civility; were way too strict for the hellsters. Especially
suffocating is the mandatory self control everyone has to exercise in their
choice of words to avoid hurting people's feelings.
In other words: Heaven is a place prepared for a prepared people. Normal
people would quite naturally find heaven disagreeable— they just wouldn't
fit in especially with its lack of privacy, its 24-7 Big Brother oversight, and its
strict codes of conduct. Take for example Wall Street barracudas. Do you
really think they'd be happy in heaven? No. Or sweat shop operators? No. Or
influence peddlers? No. Or cruel lords like Xi Jinping, Robert Mugabe and
Kim Jong Un? No. Or adulterers and fornicators? No.
Or lobbyists? No. Or J-walking pedestrians? No. Or LGBT? No. Or greedy
businessmen like Phil Knight, Bill Gates, and/or Jeff Bezos? Or unscrupulous
social networking moguls like Mark Zuckerberg? No. Or bookies? Or
activists? Or militant demonstrators and protestors? No. No. No. You see
many of the things that Hell's people do are unacceptable in Heaven; and in
point of fact, none of Heaven's people even have an interest in many of the
things that interest Hell's people.
You know what else is lacking in Heaven? Religious tolerance. There is only
one religion in the kingdom of God. What's that tell you? Well; it tells me
that the establishment clause of the US Constitution's first amendment
doesn't fly in Heaven. The theocratic monarchy in Heaven insists upon
dictating everyone's religious preference.
The hellians' final answer was that Heaven's utopian society, coupled with its
24/7 Big Brother oversight, was just simply too much to ask in exchange for
some time off. To the hellsters, Heaven was worse than a gulag.
_
I once heard a minister tell the story of a busload of Hell's people who were
given a 30-day furlough for some R&R in Heaven. They all came back the
first night because God's world was such a bore.
There were no wild parties, no clothing-optional beaches, no bars, no night
clubs, no porn, no gambling, no pigging-out at buffets, no fights, no
profanity, no ribaldry, no free sex, no vulgar late-night comedy, no exotic
dancers, no X-rated movies, no junk food, no tobacco, no marijuana, no
meth, no ecstasy, no LSD, no hunting for sport, no fishing for sport, and no
vices like gambling and prostitution.
And they had trouble seeing their way around. The light in Heaven was so
bright that they had to protect their eyes all the time with welding goggles.
And the hellsters didn't particularly care for the isolation. None of the good
folk in heaven wanted to associate with them: they were ostracized, they
were segregated, and they were quarantined.
Heaven is a pleasant utopia. It's etiquette, its dress code, and its rules of
conduct and civility; were way too strict for the hellsters. Especially
suffocating is the mandatory self control everyone has to exercise in their
choice of words to avoid hurting people's feelings.
In other words: Heaven is a place prepared for a prepared people. Normal
people would quite naturally find heaven disagreeable— they just wouldn't
fit in especially with its lack of privacy, its 24-7 Big Brother oversight, and its
strict codes of conduct. Take for example Wall Street barracudas. Do you
really think they'd be happy in heaven? No. Or sweat shop operators? No. Or
influence peddlers? No. Or cruel lords like Xi Jinping, Robert Mugabe and
Kim Jong Un? No. Or adulterers and fornicators? No.
Or lobbyists? No. Or J-walking pedestrians? No. Or LGBT? No. Or greedy
businessmen like Phil Knight, Bill Gates, and/or Jeff Bezos? Or unscrupulous
social networking moguls like Mark Zuckerberg? No. Or bookies? Or
activists? Or militant demonstrators and protestors? No. No. No. You see
many of the things that Hell's people do are unacceptable in Heaven; and in
point of fact, none of Heaven's people even have an interest in many of the
things that interest Hell's people.
You know what else is lacking in Heaven? Religious tolerance. There is only
one religion in the kingdom of God. What's that tell you? Well; it tells me
that the establishment clause of the US Constitution's first amendment
doesn't fly in Heaven. The theocratic monarchy in Heaven insists upon
dictating everyone's religious preference.
The hellians' final answer was that Heaven's utopian society, coupled with its
24/7 Big Brother oversight, was just simply too much to ask in exchange for
some time off. To the hellsters, Heaven was worse than a gulag.
_
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't want to go to a heaven of this description either.....all that cloud floating and harp playing. Christians have really conjured up a place to turn all but religious prudes off.
That said, the option of the hellsters sucks as well. I think I'll just hang out with Jesus....maybe go on some interplanetary visits.
Desire Of All Nations
Well-Known Member
God did not ordain a 1/3 of the angels to follow Satan. As Jude, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and 2 Peter shows, they made the conscious decision to oppose God. The idea that God wanted Lucifer to lead group of angels against Him contradicts the Bible saying Lucifer was created to obey God's commanments and teach the angels under him to do the same.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
You've read Job right? Satan does nothing without God's permission.
That is part of what is called SOVEREIGNTY
He's in charge - always has been.
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
They were easily corrupted, deceived, and exploited by Satan who was jealous of the relationship Adam and Eve enjoyed with God and so devised a plan to usurp God's authority with a littel help from his friends.
In Mat 25:41 it is shown that the devil and the angels in his employ actually failed a test of character, for which God was prepared, and that those on earth who fail also will share the same fate. "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:"
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Easily fooled? I don't think so. The rebellion wouldn't have been a one night experience. It may have taken eons, with Lucifer himself perhaps not even knowing in the beginning where his ideas were leading. I see it as a developing political campaign over leadership, with Lucifer developing a far too high opinion of himself thinking he deserved more considering his great beauty and intelligence. The other angels were deceived yes, but such deceptions are never easy, and they take time. The innuendos and lies that developed over time were all about God's character. Which is why Lucifer and those rebellious angels weren't destroyed at the beginning. If they had been destroyed, the other angels would have served from fear, and Lucifer's attacks against God's ability to rule with justice and fairness justified in the minds of the universe. The answer to whether God is a God of love and justice had to be played out giving birth sides of the debate equal opportunity to develop and bear fruit. The final nail in Lucifer's death sentence came at Calvary. The last 2000 years have been all about that same debate. And the vast majority of humankind are still agreeing with Lucifer. They refuse to come to the Lord from fear of judgement and unfair treatment. God's character is still doubted. This has little to do with what heaven is like. It's all about what God is like.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
I think you will find that heaven is peace of mind. Why did the angles rebel? Maybe because preferred sin to peace of mind. The trouble with sin is that it poisons our lives.
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