If OSAS is false, then what?

[Lambano]

I asked a preacher, baptist, last year if i had to get my act together first before getting saved, he said no. I just cannot accept that God would save me while willingly sinning like i do.
...
I dont wanna think im saved, then get to Heaven and find out im not saved.

I get it. You don't want to raise your hopes in order to have them dashed against rocks. But I think I can promise that Christ is trustworthy and won't disappoint you.

Okay; I'll keep praying that you get clean. That's a win-win right there. Do whatever you have to do.

 

[Lambano]

I would like to point out that I would say that most people on this form do not no know the doctrines of Armenism. And thus do not subscribe to those beliefs.

This is a good insight. It didn't hit me until I came to this forum.

 

[Lambano]

1. “When Jesus died, all of today’s sins were yet future. Jesus did not die only for the sins of people who lived before Him. He died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2), including the sins of those who lived after Him.”

HA! Sorry to disappoint, but im a full five. Im still talking about His elect.

If Christ died for the sins of the whole world, you are a worldly guy, therefore Christ died for your sins too. To deny that is to deny an essential part the gospel as Paul states in 1 Corinthians 15:4. The Reformed Arminian believes that Christ died for the sins of all humanity, but the saving effects of that death are only applied to those who trust Him. On this point, I think the doctrine of a Limited Atonement is not only wrong, but also harmful to YOU personally because it keeps you from trusting Christ.

You asked in another thread what the grudge that brought me here was? My first post on CB was arguing that if John is consistent throughout his writings about what "The World" really is, his meaning in 1 John 2:2 (and John 3:16) must be all men without exception.

Another member quoted John Calvin himself (and I wish he had cited which of Calvin's works he was quoting so that I could fact-check it) thusly:

“'That whosoever believeth on him may not perish.' It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.”

So, John Calvin was a four-pointer.

The John 3:16 passage Calvin quotes states that God's motivation is love for the whole world, including addicts who can't come clean and have no desire to stop sinning. God apparently thinks you're worth saving, which is why I do too.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Why are posters so obsessed with "falling away"? While the warnings are there, the reality is that apostates (those who fall away) were never saved to begin with. Remember the Parable of the Sower? All soils are not the same, and all hearts are not the same.

Yup - that's the Calvinist / Reformed "Work Around" for those "Problem Verses". i.e. if you "Fall away", you must never have been "IN" to begin with.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

you think That if you ever were to fall away, that God didnt know that already? This is part of the reason we say if you do fall away, you were never saved to begin with. John said they went out from us, because they were not of us, meaning never were saved.

Standard Calvinist / Reformed "work around".

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Standard Calvinist / Reformed "work around".

so truth is considered a “work around” when you dont like what it says.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

Salvation is not dependant on one's theology. None of us have all our views of God correct. We do the best we can flawed though it is.
Debating as if Salvation is dependant on one's correct theology is a trip.....a religious trip which is oppressive and ego driven.

the Bible 100% disagrees with you:

"But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." - Rev. 22:15

"But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us." - 2 Thess. 3:6

If you're not adhering to the doctrines that came from God, then you're not a Christian. Paul took it a step further and said that a Christian is to distance themselves from whoever reject the doctrines and traditions that were established through the apostles.

So yes, the Bible teaches that there is only 1 correct set of doctrines, and that whoever refuses to live by that set of doctrines is to be treated like a spiritual leper. Jesus and the other apostles only taught 1 set of correct doctrines. That's why the epistles commonly refer to biblical Christianity as the faith or the Way. Unless you can cite a passage where Jesus or any other messenger of God says what you're trying to sell, you're speaking from a place of deceit or ignorance.

When God does something it is permanent. So if He selects some and saves them it is eternal salvation. That automatically cancels the denial of the eternal security of the believer.

The sheer dishonesty in your argument lies in the fact that the Bible doesn't teach what you're trying to sell. Jesus saying that a Christian had to endure to the end to be saved automatically debunks any pro-OSAS argument, no matter how well OSAS deceivers try to confuse people by misusing Paul's statements.

you think That if you ever were to fall away, that God didnt know that already? This is part of the reason we say if you do fall away, you were never saved to begin with. John said they went out from us, because they were not of us, meaning never were saved.

The bolded sums up the whole problem with people arguing that OSAS is biblical: it is based on what they say, and not what the Bible says. And even when they do quote something from the Bible, it is a deliberate attempt to sell falsehoods. Glossing over the many warnings about how a Christian has to remain grounded in the truth doesn't make OSAS biblical, nor will it ever make it biblical. You're not going to fool people who are aware of those warnings by misquoting John.

The fact that Jesus prophesied that many professing Christians will be among the condemned proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that OSAS is far from biblical.

 

[quietthinker]

If you're not adhering to the doctrines that came from God, then you're not a Christian. Paul took it a step further and said that a Christian is to distance themselves from whoever reject the doctrines and traditions that were established through the apostles.

So yes, the Bible teaches that there is only 1 correct set of doctrines, and that whoever refuses to live by that set of doctrines is to be treated like a spiritual leper. Jesus and the other apostles only taught 1 set of correct doctrines. That's why the epistles commonly refer to biblical Christianity as the faith or the Way. Unless you can cite a passage where Jesus or any other messenger of God says what you're trying to sell, you're speaking from a place of deceit or ignorance.

Let's join the pious party.....we'll dot all the i's and cross all the t's; we'll fast twice a week, wear broad phylacteries, we'll have the bible tucked under our arms spitting out verses to suit every occasion. We'll remove ourselves from all the sinners and riff raff who have no clue of the doctrines......and when the time comes we'll be ready for translation!

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Strange thing is...the Bible doesn't say that we are all going to heaven.....only a select "few" are chosen as "saints" and these it says have to prove "faithful to death".....but then so do all other Christians. What is difficult to understand about that? Once you become a Christian, its a lifelong commitment to live in accord with Christ's teachings.
If we fail to live up to our commitment then the apostle peter said...
"Certainly if after escaping from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, their final state has become worse for them than the first. 21 It would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it to turn away from the holy commandment they had received. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.” (2 Peter 2:20-22) No OSAS there.

Those who are not of the "heavenly calling" will be ruled by those who are.....its not rocket science. God put us here on planet earth to live forever in paradise, but we lost that prospect when Adam disobeyed a direct command and brought sin and death on all of us. (Romans 5:12) Jesus came to get it back for us, taking some from the earth to assist him in restoring God's original purpose and rewarding those who followed through on their commitment.

“Commitments are not what God is looking for......” When I return , Will I find FAITH in the land? “

The Bible talks about the “ Heroes Of FAITH”...... I never saw anything about “Heroes Of Commitment”

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

Fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life.

Great post, as always......I can never find the Bible Verse that says, “ Anybody that ASKS to be Saved has a CHANCE to be Saved”....... must be somewhere in the back....lol

 

[praise_yeshua]

Standard Calvinist / Reformed "work around".

Hi Bob! How you doing?

Not as many Calvinists over here....?

 

[Aunty Jane]

“Commitments are not what God is looking for......” When I return , Will I find FAITH in the land? “

What do you think "commitment" means?
What is Christian baptism a symbol of, if not a commitment, much the same as what one does in a marriage?
Christ and his "bride" are committed to each other. Those who will become their subjects must be committed to their faith as well. Each one is tested as to fitness first.....approval comes when one has been found continuously complying with Christ's teachings. Only those who prove "faithful unto death" inherit "the crown of life". (Revelation 2:10) OSAS is not Biblical....it ignores so many verses in the Bible that say otherwise.

The Bible talks about the “ Heroes Of FAITH”...... I never saw anything about “Heroes Of Commitment”

Then you never read the Bible....it is full of accounts where the faithful are tested as to their commitment to God. Read Job and see what tested his faith.....it was the commitment he felt towards his God that was unbreakable, no matter what the devil did, he would maintain his integrity.

The apostles too were tested as to their commitment to their teacher and Master, undergoing persecution and unjust imprisonment just for obeying their Lord. Each successful test of faith is a slap in the face for the devil, as Jesus demonstrated when he himself was tempted by satan. He referred to God's word on each occasion and stood fast in obedience to his God and Father.....setting an example for all of us.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

so truth is considered a “work around” when you dont like what it says.

ALL God's Chilluns Gots "TRUTHS". A great variety of 'em.

 

[bbyrd009]

Another member quoted John Calvin himself (and I wish he had cited which of Calvin's works he was quoting so that I could fact-check it) thusly:

“'That whosoever believeth on him may not perish.' It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life

John Calvin's Bible Commentaries On The Gospel Of John, 1 -11

 

[Lambano]

John Calvin's Bible Commentaries On The Gospel Of John, 1 -11

Thank you, Bbyrd!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

When God does something it is permanent. So if He selects some and saves them it is eternal salvation. That automatically cancels the denial of the eternal security of the believer.

Amen! Confirmed With about 12 Dozen Plain And Clear Scriptures:

God's Permanent OPERATION On ALL His New-born babes In CHRIST!
+
God's Eternal Assurance!

Not entirely. With OSAS it is the believer that say they are saved. If God says it then it's true. There is a difference. God saving people is not OSAS.

According To Scripture? Yes, Entirely! God Says believers in JESUS CHRIST
can know they have HIS Eternal Life, thus, all the "Redeemed can say:
Yes, I am saved!" Amen?:

1Jn 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe On
The Name Of The SON Of God; that ye may know that ye have
Eternal Life, and that ye may believe On The Name Of The SON
Of God."
+
Psa_107:2 "Let The Redeemed of the LORD say so, whom
He Hath Redeemed from the hand of the enemy"​

Conclusion: Instead of fighting Against God's Sound Doctrine Of
HIS Eternal Life, should we not be rejoicing!?:

"Rejoice In The LORD Alway, and again I say REJOICE!"
(Philippians_4:4)

GRACE And Peace...

 

[dev553344]

Amen! Confirmed With about 12 Dozen Plain And Clear Scriptures:

God's Permanent OPERATION On ALL His New-born babes In CHRIST!
+
God's Eternal Assurance!

According To Scripture? Yes, Entirely! God Says believers in JESUS CHRIST
can know they have HIS Eternal Life, thus, all the "Redeemed can say:
Yes, I am saved!" Amen?:

1Jn 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe On
The Name Of The SON Of God; that ye may know that ye have
Eternal Life, and that ye may believe On The Name Of The SON
Of God."
+
Psa_107:2 "Let The Redeemed of the LORD say so, whom
He Hath Redeemed from the hand of the enemy"​

Conclusion: Instead of fighting Against God's Sound Doctrine Of
HIS Eternal Life, should we not be rejoicing!?:

"Rejoice In The LORD Alway, and again I say REJOICE!"
(Philippians_4:4)

GRACE And Peace...

I don't believe that and have been involved in debates regarding that topic. Sorry I'm not buying it.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

For you to believe that you must be ignoring the scriptures that warn about losing one's salvation.

Correct, ignoring "The Misrepresentations/Misinterpretations" of the few verses.
And believing "The Many Plain and Clear" (Bible study Rule # 6) Thanks.

GRACE And Peace...

 

[dev553344]

Correct, ignoring "The Misrepresentations/Misinterpretations" of the few verses.
And believing "The Many Plain and Clear" (Bible study Rule # 6) Thanks.

GRACE And Peace...

Sorry I deleted that post. I realized what doctrine you're following and decided not to debate. May God bless you though.

 

[Taken]

Hello all. No doubt, the question of OSAS has been a huge debate around here as of late. And for the most part, i feel like we know who is for and against it.

so what i’d like to know, if OSAS isnt true, then what is true? I’ve never gotten an honest answer from those on this forum as to this question. And my main thoughts on this are, 1. If OSAS isnt true, then what is the requirement to get to Heaven? 2. Since sin no longer matters, are we free to just live however we want?

IF, OSAS isn’t true.
THEN: There IS NO Salvation “GIVEN” a man while that man “IS” alive “in his flesh.”

The whole concept of RECEIVING “salvation” NOW, while alive in ones flesh, Highly hangs on the Facts:
* World Population has exponentially Increased since the beginning.
* As world population Increases, SO ALSO does corruption, Wicked men, (which is men of Power, ie parents, teachers, government reps etc. acting with Deception, underhandedness, deceit, and power of force and power to punish for rejecting their demands), which because of corruption, effects the drawing men AWAY from God, to follow and trust THEM.
(Open Eyes NOW, Open Ears NOW...They already world wide are preaching, THEY are the World’s SAVIOR of life, vacs, wars...They already world wide are preaching THEY are the World’s SAFETY Net from FEAR, Loss, etc.
* And of course there are evil spirits, always roaming about enticing men to reject God, and Trust him.

Salvation FOR 4,000 years, WAS “promised” men “who” Believed and Continued their Believe to the day of their physical death.
OLD Covenant, according to Law. (Ie Gods Order and Way).
The Law did not SAVE them. Continued (endured) Belief and the Promise Saved them, after their physical death.

* The OLD Covenant was fulfilled...the OLD Law was fulfilled...BUT NOT DESTROYED, which means the A man under the Law (ISRAEL), could continue under the Law, Continue belief, and at the time of his physical death, He will be SAVED when his body dies.

A GENTILE man, BELIEVING, continuing (enduring) believing, to the time of his physical death, ALSO, shall be SAVED when his body dies.
Like an ISRAELITE, (believers), Gentiles, (believers) are on their own WILLPOWER, (up against, powerful evil spirits and powerful wicked men),
To KEEP believing.

A believing man CAN, be enticed, tricked, tempted, vulnerable, to reject God, and trust Wicked men, and trust Evil spirits...
BECAUSE, that man IS relying on his own will power....
(And we already know, spirits and powerful men have more power than the population at large.)

* THE NEW “better” Testament...Promise, Covenant...(Heb 7:22) IS an ASSURANCE of a man to receive Gods Gift of Salvation....BEFORE his physical bodily death. “IF” that man TAKES his SALVATION,
(According to Gods Order and Way).
It’s a Service of Agreement, by the mans heartful word of Confession....
And thereafter the WORKS of God of Forgiveness and Conversion.
This WAY, requires that mans...spiritual bodily death...Crucified with Christ Jesus...and Heartful confession of Belief.
* That man BY Gods Works, satisfies his ONE required Bodily Death, satisfies his ONE receiving of God Saving the life in the mans soul, satisfies the ONE circumcision of his heart, (natural spirits thoughts), Receiving a new Born again spirit from Gods Seed....
* That forgiven man WHOLLY...body, soul, spirit...has satisfied Gods requirements to FOREVER and ALWAYS, be “WITH” God and God “WITH” that man.
* That man IS Forgiven for have HAD been Against God (ie the mans SIN), IS Saved, IS Quickened, IS Sanctified (set apart unto God), IS covered with Gods Light ie Gods Spirit IN that man, (his forgiven sin not seen nor remember any more), IS Justified, (to be redeemed ONLY by the Lord God).
* This man CAN NEVER fall away from God, NEVER reject God, NEVER be separated or WITHOUT God.
* This man IS KEPT forever WITH God, BY GODS POWER IN that man.

* God CAN NOT stand against Himself. Gods Spirit IN a man would be standing against Himself, IF Gods Power failed and ALLOWED that man, (who Submitted to God)...to REJECT God.

* OSAS....IS expressly Applicable to men WHO, HAVE heartfully and wholly, body, soul, spirit, Submitted unto God...and God HAS WHOLLY, body, soul, spirit ...accepted that mans spiritual death, (crucified with Christ Jesus,) saved that mans soul and quickened that mans spirit, and Forgiven that mans SIN Against God...once and forever....WHILE that man was alive in his flesh.

* God IS a jealous God. He wants EVERYONE of his creations TO WANT TO FOREVER Be “WITH” Him.
* For ALL the Gifts and Blessing and Goodness God has Given mankind....
* WHAT does mankind HAVE that is SO Precious, TO GIVE TO GOD?
**** ONE THING**** the mans Bodily LIFE.

John 15:
[13] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

We are all going to bodily die.
Yet a man who is WILLING to Give his life unto Death, FOR the Love of God.
There is no other WAY for a man to TRULY SHOW HIS LOVE to God...

AND the bonus, unto God?
Every man WHO lays down his LIFE...FOR GOD...
Ta da...that man Becomes Gods Inheritance.

Who does not want ALL of their inheritance?

Continued;