Genesis chapter 3. Both are guilty. Eve was beguiled by the serpent who is satan. Sexual relations. Adam joined in. Eve had two baby's. Two different fathers. Its written in exodus, God will not clear the guilty. In genesis chapter 2, God explicitly told Adam to stay away from tree of knowledge of good and evil. We're in the flesh body. Its sinful. Its easy to fall for temptation. Only Jesus is perfect. Why do you think Adam and eve covered themselves with fig leaves?? . They were guilty. I'm not judging anyone. I'm telling the truth.
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St. Joseph
Active Member
Also,what makes me skeptical about Satan trying to overtgow God.
1. Heaven is a perfect place. no sin
2. God,who is all knowing,didnt know Satan was whispering behind his back turning a third of heaven against him.(Maybe God was asleep or ut of town that day)
3.God who is all powerful,who can destroy the universe with a thought,had to call Michael to throw him out.
I just dont know. And it shouldnt matter how he got here.
Paul in Phillipians didnt say,That i may know Satan.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Whoah....hold on there....where on earth do you get those ideas from Genesis ch 3? Two different fathers???
Please point out the verses that speak of this....and what you think is written in Exodus? Can you explain?
Do we understand clearly what this "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" was? Why was it in the garden in the first place?
Of all the things that God put into creation that were 'equal opposites', these two opposites were the only ones that God wanted to keep in his own jurisdiction. Because they are EQUAL opposites, imagine what the opposite of God's immense goodness would mean....?
Was it any wonder that he wanted to decide for them what was good and what was evil? He was a protective parent , trying to keep evil away from his children. Obedience would have done that.
It also demonstrated his sovereign right to set the limits of the relative freedom that he gave them. The tree was there as a test of their obedience to the reasonable rule that he set.....and he didn't have a long list of things that they were not to do....there was just one negative command, and the humans knew enough about their God to obey him. They knew what death was....and they knew what obedience was too.
Adam was not new on the scene. We know that he was created some time before his wife because the the Genesis account indicates that God educated Adam and allowed him to name all the animals, (something that would have taken a long time)......and it became obvious to Adam that they all had mates, but he did not.
So God said.....
“It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” 19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.
21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
23 And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”
Finally the man had his own mate.....and God joined them in marriage.
The knowledge of good and evil came with a revelation.....sin was now in their flesh, causing them shame concerning their nakedness. Sexual sin was a large part of the Law given to Israel because it was the means to transmit life. They now discerned what sin was in their flesh because it produced a new feeling that was foreign to them....so they covered their reproductive parts. God thereafter made long garments of skin to give them modesty, and to protect them from what was now a harsh environment of thorns and thistles, outside of their paradise home. They lost so much by disobeying their God and caused all their children to inherit sin and death.
. If He knew Satan was going to betray Him, he certainly knew that Adam would sin, and so we ask, why allow it? And there you have the premise for WHY GOD PERMITS EVIL
St. Joseph
Active Member
I wont claim to understand. But i think man had to sin before he could get to heaven. Salvation and the coming of the Messiah was planned before God said Let there be light.
Flesh and blood cannot enter heaven. Man had to overcome something to prove himself worthy. Which he can only do through Christ and his righteousness.
Boggles my mind for sure.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
If you go back to Eden, there was no mention of 'heaven or hell'....only 'life or death'. Those were the only two choices.
If Adam and his wife had obeyed their God. they would have lived forever on earth, just as God intended. Sin led to death, not heaven.
No, that is not true. Salvation was not needed before man fell into sin. If they had obeyed and lived forever, no salvation would have been necessary. Christ's sacrifice would not have been needed to redeem those who had no sin.
Man was created with free will.....God did not prevent the humans from exercising it, or it would not have been free.
He did not prevent the devil from exercising his free will either.
Flesh was never designed to enter heaven....man is designed to live here on earth......and the earth was designed to support life in all its various forms. Man was to be earth's caretaker....made in God's image and likeness, he was not meant to die......there was only one cause of death mentioned to Adam......eating from the TKGE......so If he hadn't eat of the forbidden fruit, there was no natural cause of death.....there would have been no aging, no sickness and no evil.
The only ones chosen for life in heaven are the elect....and they are transformed into spirit beings (born again) at their resurrection, so as to be able to live in the presence of God. These alone will join Christ in his role as King of God's Kingdom.
It was the devil who rebelled first and dragged mankind into his web of deceit.....which started with a lie...."you surely will not die", but God said that they would....so who lied? (John 8:44) Who is it that wants us to believe that we don't really die, but that we go on living in another form in another realm?....NOT GOD. He told Adam....
"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
No heaven or hell is mentioned here...
Any wonder that there is confusion...? There are so many who believe that we have an immortal soul that never dies.....that is just not true. (Ezekiel 18:4) There is no mention of an "immortal soul" anywhere in the Bible. It is an adopted idea from the pagan Greeks whose influence is still seen in many religions around the world who accept this idea. It is NOT a Bible teaching at all.
The ancient Jews (as opposed to the modern day ones) did not have any belief in an immortal part of man that lived on after death. They believed in resurrection which is a return to life, not a continuation of it.
Eccl 9:5, 10 tell us where the dead are....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. . . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [sheol] where you are going."
"Sheol" is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek "hades"....which as you can see is not a place of torment, but a place where the dead "sleep".
Read the account of Lazarus who was resurrected by Jesus and see where Jesus said he was....
"After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died." (John 11:11-14)
Resurrection is waking the dead.....you cannot resurrect a person who is not dead....
St. Joseph
Active Member
Too wordy to read all that. But i guess the gyst is you disagree. Thats fine.
But im right
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
"Too wordy"? Just read the scriptures.....are you too lazy or do you have a comprehension problem? People miss so much because they cannot be bothered reading another point of view. Take the time to read and learn.....you believe that you are right, but the Bible argues with you....
St. Joseph
Active Member
No. You argue with me. And yes to wordy. I dont need someone writing a book just to say what they believe. You will never see me write over a short paragraph. Except now.
People will usally quote 15 bible verses to prove their stand on a subject. And when all said and done,they misinterpreted 13 of them, and have nothing to do with the subject at hand.
But as to the subject...im right. Salvation was planned from the foundation of the world. Grab a concordance.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
St. Joseph
Active Member
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Well, I am not sure what Concordance you are using but I favor Strongs, myself.
So, the one statement that these verses have in common is "the founding (or foundation) of the world". Correct?
Perhaps you meant Eph 1:4?
So what is the "foundation".....and what is "the world" in these statements?
The word translated "foundation" is "katabolē" (G2602) and it means....
"a throwing or laying down
- the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb
- of the seed of plants and animals"
So this word has to do with conception and apparently pertains to seeds germinating or animals and humans becoming fertile and producing offspring. This word is used with regard to Sarah in Hebrews 11:11...
"By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive G2602, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised."
So the "foundation of the world" (kosmos) in most scripture verses is referring to the beginning of the human race descended from Adam and his wife, rather than the creation of the planet. (Matt 24:21; Mark 14:9; Mark 16:15; Luke 12:30)
So when Jesus referred to the "foundation" or the "founding of the world" he was talking about the creation of the human race from Adam and Eve, both of whom were created, but their children were conceived....but after they had committed sin. (Rom 5:12)
Jesus didn't volunteer to come to die for the human race before they even sinned. There were a number of outcomes that could have eventuated depending on the choices they made. Free will means that the decisions were theirs, not God's. He did not prevent them from making whatever decisions they chose, but the stated penalty would apply.
What could have happened?
1) The angel who became the devil, was in a responsible position in the garden as a guardian cherub, he could have decided against tempting the humans to disobey their Creator....but he didn't.
2) The woman on being approached, could have rejected the devil's offer and kept living....but she didn't.
3) The man could have rejected his wife's offer of the fruit and she alone would have suffered the penalty that they both knew was the price of disobedience....but he chose to join her in rebellion.
4) All three succumbed to their own desires, (James 1:13-15) and left God out of their decisions....leaving their children to inherit a debt that none of them could pay. God did not prevent them from making these errors, but he did not cause them.
Having a scenario that puts all the blame on God for everything that took place because he planned it all in advance, makes no sense....and is contrary to his love and his perfect justice.
What makes you think man was going to heaven? Nothing in the scenario before the fall indicates that man was going to heaven. We're told man was created from the earth and that he was to fill and subdue the earth. Gen 2-3
St. Joseph
Active Member
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
So even though Strongs indicates that the “founding of the world” is the beginning of the “world” of sinful mankind descended from Adam and his wife, you still wish to cling to what you want to believe?
That conclusion, I guess, is a result of your free will.....it can lead us astray and have dire consequences.....and the thing is, God will allow us to believe whatever our heart desires, just as he did in the beginning. He is looking for those who value the truth when they hear it, and obedience to his laws and principles, even when its not what they want to practice.
St. Joseph
Active Member
Rev 13
You are confusing bouncing back and forth.
Yes! Foundation....the beginning. Salvation was planned before the foundation(beginning) of the world
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
I think Adam & Eve is an allegory for early mankind. God knew that people would not understand and appreciate living with him unless they first lived apart from him in this broken world. Adam & Eve is the opening chapter of mankind's journey down the wrong path and also God's plan to work on us through Jesus.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Can you please give us your learned views on this chapter? Such vague references are an indication that you have no idea about what you are saying.....
The only one who seems to be confused here is you.
“Foundation” in the references I gave you from Strongs, indicates that the “world” (kosmos) is the world of mankind, not the planet.
The word “foundation” has reference to conception and having children, so the “foundation of the world” was the beginning of the human race descended from two sinful parents. That is when God determined to send the savior to rescue Adam’s children who were thrown into this situation through no fault on their part.
I think you are out of your depth in this discussion.....how can God deliberately cause all this pain and suffering as something he planned in advance? What a horrible God would do such a thing?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
“I THINK” is a dangerous expression, Patrick......”God’s word says” is much safer, and gives space for discussion and analysis with comparison with other scripture.
What did Jesus say?
To the Pharisees who were trying to trip him up on the question of divorce.....
“And Pharisees came to him intent on testing him, and they asked: “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every sort of grounds?” 4 In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.” (Matthew 19:3-6)
Does it sound like Jesus didn’t believe in the original humans were real people?.....he was there.....and after all, if these two had not introduced sin into the world, we would not be carriers of that awful inheritance, (Romans 5:12) and Jesus would never have needed to come into the world to rescue us.
St. Joseph
Active Member
Rev 13
Foundation” in the references I gave you from Strongs, indicates that the “world” (kosmos) is the world of mankind, not the planet.
The word “foundation” has reference to conception and having children, so the “foundation of the world” was the beginning of the human race descended from two sinful parents. That is when God determined to send the savior to rescue Adam’s children who were thrown into this situation through no fault on their part.
And savation was planned before mankind was ever created. The human race from sinful parents
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