If sealed with the HS, how does one become UNsealed ?

[Lambano]

Once-Saved-Always-Saved is derived from the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints (the "P" in TULIP), a staple of Reformed theology. The basis of Perseverance is that God Himself has sovereignly chosen His saints from before the Foundation of the World, He has regenerated their spirits, and He will see to it that they never apostatize. And God's sovereign will cannot be thwarted. The Biblical basis of Perseverance is supported by such verses as "none can pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:28-30) and "Who shall separate us from the love of God in Christ?" (Romans 8:22-31), and others. Ask your local Calvinist for more.

OSAS in its non-Calvinist form wants the benefits of P without having to accept the T, U, L, and maybe I. The verses cited to support it are the same as those used in standard Reformed theology.

I will note that the Articles of Remonstrance considered the possibility of apostacy without remedy as a potential issue to be further investigated; it was not (as is usually charged) an integral part of Reformation Arminianism.

 

[GodsGrace]

Once-Saved-Always-Saved is derived from the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints (the "P" in TULIP), a staple of Reformed theology. The basis of Perseverance is that God Himself has sovereignly chosen His saints from before the Foundation of the World, He has regenerated their spirits, and He will see to it that they never apostatize. And God's sovereign will cannot be thwarted. The Biblical basis of Perseverance is supported by such verses as "none can pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:28-30) and "Who shall separate us from the love of God in Christ?" (Romans 8:22-31), and others. Ask your local Calvinist for more.

OSAS in its non-Calvinist form wants the benefits of P without having to accept the T, U, L, and I.

I'd add to the above that OSAS was disseminated throughout the Protestant denomnations by
John Darby in about 1820.

He adapted the P of the S into mainline Protestantism...
althoug, we do have to state, that mainline Christian denominations do NOT accept OSAS....
this also includes the Catholic churches and the Orthodox churches...

which is why I state that it is a heretical teaching.
It is not mainline.
It is out of the limits of what the Christian religion teaches.
it was never taugth in the early church.

(this does not mean that those who teach this are themselves heretics
or that they are going to hell -- which I've been accused of inferring)

 

[Lambano]

which is why I state that it is a heretical teaching.
It is not mainline.
It is out of the limits of what the Christian religion teaches.
it was never taugth in the early church.

That may not be completely correct. Co-Pilot dug this up:

Was the Perseverance of the Saints Taught Before the Reformation?​

Yes — the idea that God preserves His elect believers to the end was present in Christian thought before the Reformation, though it was not systematically developed or defined as a doctrine in the Calvinist sense.​

​

Early Church and Augustine’s Influence
The earliest clear articulation of a perseverance view similar to Calvin’s came from Augustine of Hippo in the early 5th century. In works like On the Gift of Perseverance, Augustine taught that the perseverance of believers in Christ to the end is a gift of God, not something achieved solely by human effort. He emphasized that God protects the saints from being led into temptation and that none of the saints will fail to persevere in holiness until the end. Augustine’s teaching was deterministic — God’s grace ensures the elect will not fall away — and became a key influence on Calvin.​

​

Other Early Fathers
While Augustine was the most significant early proponent, other Church Fathers such as Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Cyprian also spoke about the security of the faithful, though often in a more conditional or pastoral tone. Their writings reflect concern for the believer’s endurance but do not always assert the same kind of unconditional, God-ordained perseverance as Calvin.​

​

Pre-Reformation Context
Before the Reformation, the concept of perseverance was part of Christian teaching, but it was not a central, systematic doctrine in the way it became in Reformed theology. It was often tied to pastoral encouragement, the idea of “persevering to the end,” and the hope of God’s protection, rather than being a formal part of the “Five Points of Calvinism”.​

​

Key Difference from Calvinism
Calvin’s formulation in the 16th century was distinctive because it:​

​

• Explicitly linked perseverance to unconditional election and predestination.
• Presented it as a covenant-keeping, sovereign act of God rather than a human effort.
• Integrated it into a broader system of doctrines (TULIP) that emphasized God’s absolute control over salvation

 

[GodsGrace]

That may not be completely correct. Co-Pilot dug this up:

Was the Perseverance of the Saints Taught Before the Reformation?​

Yes — the idea that God preserves His elect believers to the end was present in Christian thought before the Reformation, though it was not systematically developed or defined as a doctrine in the Calvinist sense.​

​

Early Church and Augustine’s Influence​

The earliest clear articulation of a perseverance view similar to Calvin’s came from Augustine of Hippo in the early 5th century. In works like On the Gift of Perseverance, Augustine taught that the perseverance of believers in Christ to the end is a gift of God, not something achieved solely by human effort. He emphasized that God protects the saints from being led into temptation and that none of the saints will fail to persevere in holiness until the end. Augustine’s teaching was deterministic — God’s grace ensures the elect will not fall away — and became a key influence on Calvin.​

Augustine got the ball rolling.

In the 5th century...
NOT the Early church.

He was gnostic for 10 years...I'm not getting into that.

The EARLY CHURCH never taught OSAS.

​

Other Early Fathers​

While Augustine was the most significant early proponent, other Church Fathers such as Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Cyprian also spoke about the security of the faithful, though often in a more conditional or pastoral tone. Their writings reflect concern for the believer’s endurance but do not always assert the same kind of unconditional, God-ordained perseverance as Calvin.​

​

Pre-Reformation Context​

Before the Reformation, the concept of perseverance was part of Christian teaching, but it was not a central, systematic doctrine in the way it became in Reformed theology. It was often tied to pastoral encouragement, the idea of “persevering to the end,” and the hope of God’s protection, rather than being a formal part of the “Five Points of Calvinism”.​

​

Key Difference from Calvinism​

Calvin’s formulation in the 16th century was distinctive because it:​

​

• Explicitly linked perseverance to unconditional election and predestination.
• Presented it as a covenant-keeping, sovereign act of God rather than a human effort.
• Integrated it into a broader system of doctrines (TULIP) that emphasized God’s absolute control over salvation

Please read the above again.
The idea was PASTORAL
NOT doctrinal.

And...
it was CONDITIONAL.

As it should be.

I guess Gemini and Co-Pilot are our new Professors now.
What is necessary here,,,is the actual writings of these persons...
NOT
What Gemini or Co-Pilot THINKS.

They are programmed as you know.

 

[Grailhunter]

There are many wrong ideas about God.

God does not unseal,evict his holy Spirit from the believer whom he called to his grace. Whose name is written in God's Book of Life.
He wrote their names down first because he knew them before the womb. He called them to his gracega gave them a new mind and heart so to hold faith,entered them as his new creation,sealed into the day of redemption,which means forever.

But later,according to some doctrines, Gods will to call is overcome by the sin of the one he gave rebirth into his grace.

It's not actually God's word. But that seems to also need amending by mortals who insist it must be true.

I will never understand how those who are blessed by the heavenly gift will insist it is conditional on their choosing to keep it,or release it,by their own behaviors. Overcoming Gods will for them.

No,God doesn't force anyone to be saved. But when he does save them,and they know how it feels to be in that grace,and have his spirit within us,he wouldn't have to.

Hit the throttle on sin and see what happens.
Sealed is just another term for faithful Christian.
And it will not shield you from the eternal fire.
How many souls will be lost with garbage gospel?

 

[Lambano]

Other Early Fathers
While Augustine was the most significant early proponent, other Church Fathers such as Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Cyprian also spoke about the security of the faithful, though often in a more conditional or pastoral tone. Their writings reflect concern for the believer’s endurance but do not always assert the same kind of unconditional, God-ordained perseverance as Calvin.

Please read the above again.
The idea was PASTORAL
NOT doctrinal.

Pastoral theology is derived from doctrine. It simply was not formalized.

I also would not categorize Reformed theology as "non-mainline". The Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists are clearly considered "mainline" Protestants.

 

[mailmandan]

Augustine got the ball rolling.

In the 5th century...
NOT the Early church.

He was gnostic for 10 years...I'm not getting into that.

The EARLY CHURCH never taught OSAS.

Please read the above again.
The idea was PASTORAL
NOT doctrinal.

And...
it was CONDITIONAL.

As it should be.

I guess Gemini and Co-Pilot are our new Professors now.
What is necessary here,,,is the actual writings of these persons...
NOT
What Gemini or Co-Pilot THINKS.

They are programmed as you know.

You might as well be a Roman Catholic. They strongly oppose OSAS and teach we are saved BY works and put a lot of stock in the writings of the early church fathers. I've had Roman Catholics quote the early church fathers teaching such erroneous doctrines as infant baptism, transubstantiation, indulgences etc.. which is why I don't put much stock in their writings.

 

[mailmandan]

1. Where does the NT teach, in any of scripture I post, that we are trusting in self for salvation?
Even OT believers did not believe they were trusting in themselves but in God.

Saved by works = trusting in self. Luke 18:9 - Now He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: The Israelites had a major problem with this. They had a zeal for God but not according to knowledge and were ignorant of God’s righteousness, and sought to establish their own righteousness. (Romans 10:1-4) We see a difference in style but same in substance (works righteousness) with many folks who profess to be Christians today.

2. Why would anyone want to live in fear and bondage?
Looks like you and Augustine and Luther have a lot in common.
You really should learn some church history.

As a confused Roman Catholic I lived in fear and bandage to insecurity and was miserable. History can be manipulated.

3. You apparently do not know God very well if you feel you had to fear Him.

As a Roman Catholic, I only knew God as a tyrant who could not wait to punish every time I messed up. As a born again Christian, I now know God as a loving Father. (John 17:3; Romans 8:14-16)

The NT trips up those who do not believe it or understand it.
Those who teach against what Jesus taught or what Paul taught.
Those who are leading some to hell.

Paul made it clear. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4.)

Ephesians 5:6
6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

The sons of disobedience refers to (is descriptive of) the lost.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Christ through Paul teaches how we receive the HS.
Where does Christ through Paul teach that a SEALED believer can become UNsealed ?
Verses please :)
.....
Eph 1:13 :-
In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:
in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30 :-
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,
whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

I have not read all 300 responses, but Biblically? Once sealed you are sealed forever!

 

[Truth7t7]

No, it doesn't. The problem with the OSAS crowd is they treat as equal 2 groups, those who remain faithful and those who don't. Then they invoke a Post Hoc fallacy that if they didn't remain faithful, they were never saved to begin with.

This is why there are so many of Christs words that prove OSAS is not Biblical such as the condition IF you remain in me, I will remain in you.

You deny God's words below regarding (Eternal Security)

1.) You falsely claim that a Holy Spirit sealed believer isn't sealed until the day of redemption

2.) You falsely claim that a sealed believer can be taken out of God's hand

Conclusion: Your claims are 100% "False", (O)nce (S)ealed (A)lways (S)ealed is a "Biblical Fact" that you openly deny "Sad"!

(Eternal Security)

Ephesians 1:13-14KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 10:26-30KJV
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

 

[Truth7t7]

I have not read all 300 responses, but Biblically? Once sealed you are sealed forever!

Your 100% Correct, And God's Word Supports Your Claim

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[Gray_Joy]

Jesus taught that our salvation is by Gods grace. He calls whom he wills into his grace. And it is eternal salvation. Jesus will never lose a one of us.

Paul teaches the same thing. Irrevocably saved by God's grace. Not of ourselves,but by God's grace and will.

In our beginning we were dead in the spirit. Unable to understand the things of God.
Which is why God did all the work to change that in us. We did nothing God did.

Now,we insist we can overcome Gods will and plan and work in us,because we don't work to keep what God said we could not work to achieve for ourselves.

God's word is true.

 

[GodsGrace]

Pastoral theology is derived from doctrine. It simply was not formalized.

I also would not categorize Reformed theology as "non-mainline". The Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists are clearly considered "mainline" Protestants.

How could reformed theology be considered MAINLINE if IT NEVER EXISTED in the church?

Do we all understand that the Christian Religion began 2 thousand years ago?

Do we understand that if we accpet BRAND NEW ideas that came about after the year 1,500 it means every theologian before this time MISSED something very important in the NT?

Do we believe that all theologians pre 1500 were dumb and did not understand the NT?

Do we know that the Apostles passed on their information BEFORE THEY DIED?

Calvinism is as heretical is the person that started it by following the teachings of a heretical manachean.

 

[GodsGrace]

You might as well be a Roman Catholic. They strongly oppose OSAS and teach we are saved BY works and put a lot of stock in the writings of the early church fathers. I've had Roman Catholics quote the early church fathers teaching such erroneous doctrines as infant baptism, transubstantiation, indulgences etc.. which is why I don't put much stock in their writings.

Well,,,they can't be all wrong.
The NT teaches that the church you're attending (if this is where you're learning all this heresy)
is a heretical church teaching heresy.

You should wake up.

 

[GodsGrace]

Your 100% Correct, And God's Word Supports Your Claim

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

If we're sealed unto the day of redemption...

WHY

Are we asked not to grieve the Holy Spirit?

 

[GodsGrace]

Saved by works = trusting in self. Luke 18:9 - Now He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: The Israelites had a major problem with this. They had a zeal for God but not according to knowledge and were ignorant of God’s righteousness, and sought to establish their own righteousness. (Romans 10:1-4) We see a difference in style but same in substance (works righteousness) with many folks who profess to be Christians today.

Difficuilt to reply to scripture I cannot see.
However, the NT teaches that we are to do works.
It's what Jesus taught.

Not posting anymore scripture...must leave soon.
Be happy mmd.
Even if you're wrong.

As a confused Roman Catholic I lived in fear and bandage to insecurity and was miserable. History can be manipulated.

As a Roman Catholic, I only knew God as a tyrant who could not wait to punish every time I messed up. As a born again Christian, I now know God as a loving Father. (John 17:3; Romans 8:14-16)

Funny. I was also raised in the same church.
I love Jesus and Mary.
I suppose we're all different.
You should read the NT all on your own...
fresh.
See what you come up with.

Paul made it clear. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4.)

The sons of disobedience refers to (is descriptive of) the lost.

Great scripture...I'm sure.

 

[mailmandan]

Well,,,they can't be all wrong.
The NT teaches that the church you're attending (if this is where you're learning all this heresy)
is a heretical church teaching heresy.

You should wake up.

What do I teach that is heresy? Is "preservation of the saints" (Psalm 37:28); "eternal security of the believer" (Ephesians 1:13-14) heresy? Wake up to what? Fear and bondage to insecurity? I already rode that roller coaster ride while attending the RCC before my conversion. No thanks. They also pervert the gospel.

Heresy denies an essential Christian doctrine which culminates in a false plan of salvation. OSAS is only heresy when you attach a license to sin/license for immortality to it (2 Peter 2:1; Jude 1:4) just like NOSAS only becomes heresy when you attach salvation by works/works righteousness to it. (Romans 4:4-6; 11:6)

 

[mailmandan]

Difficuilt to reply to scripture I cannot see.
However, the NT teaches that we are to do works.
It's what Jesus taught.

Nobody is saying that we are not to do works. Believers are created in Christ Jesus FOR good works. (Ephesians 2:10) That is not the issue. The issue is are we saved by grace through faith, NOT works (Eohesians 2:8,9) or are we saved by grace through faith AND works?

Not posting anymore scripture...must leave soon.
Be happy mmd.
Even if you're wrong.

If trusting in Jesus Christ, as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation (John 3:15,16,18; 10:9; 14:6; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 ) is wrong, then I never want to be right.

Funny. I was also raised in the same church.
I love Jesus and Mary.
I suppose we're all different.
You should read the NT all on your own...
fresh.
See what you come up with.

I won't come up with a "different" gospel.

 

[Gray_Joy]

Nobody is saying that we are not to do works. Believers are created in Christ Jesus FOR good works. (Ephesians 2:10) That is not the issue. The issue is are we saved by grace through faith, NOT works (Eohesians 2:8,9) or are we saved by grace through faith AND works?

If trusting in Jesus Christ, as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation (John 3:15,16,18; 10:9; 14:6; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 ) is wrong, then I never want to be right.

I won't come up with a "different" gospel.

What are we doing here?

The Gospel is everything Jesus said it is.

We're arguing with people who insist that isn't true!
Which says everything about them.

And we're doing this,over and over again? In this thread and all those other ones that are worded to define that same repeated contest of, Jesus said! No he didn't! ?

 

[Grailhunter]

What are we doing here?

The Gospel is everything Jesus said it is.

We're arguing with people who insist that isn't true!
Which says everything about them.

And we're doing this,over and over again? In this thread and all those other ones that are worded to define that same repeated contest of, Jesus said! No he didn't! ?

Finally you are right! OSAS, Universalism, and Calvinism are definitely not in the scriptures. Boy I am glad we got that settled.