If sealed with the HS, how does one become UNsealed ?

[mailmandan]

That's because you do teach heresy.
If you believe that doctrine saves MMD
then you better make darn sure that you have your doctrine right.

Believing either OSAS or NOSAS is not what saves. Faith in Jesus Christ saves. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

You sure are one confused dude.
Have you become a gnostic?

Nope. You seem to have a rigid belief about OSAS.

Not engaging in your tiraid against the very church that saved the NT writings for you.

The Roman Catholic church takes credit for a lot of things and they remain under the delusion that they are the one and only true church.

Sure.
Because you cannot make your case.
OSAS WAS NEVER taught in the early church.

Unless you could prove othewise of course.

I already proved it from Scripture.

The wicked could, maybe, be those that teach doctrine that will send some to hell.
Just sayin.

Jesus drew the line in the sand on who will and won't be saved. John 3:18.

As you know,,,I'm tired of playing the verse game with you.

Your theology causes conflict in the NT.

This is due to your inability to properly interpret scripture.

No conflict on my part because I properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. It's your theology that culminates in works-righteousness, that causes conflict in the NT.

Because you twwist it to mean what you THINK it means
or what you WANT it to mean

instead of taking it at face value.

Face value while negating context and hermeneutics results in contradictions.

Sounds kind of like what YOU believe.

Which OTHER CHURCH existed in the earlty times MMD.
BEFORE the year 1,000AD

They were mentioned in the article that you apparently did not read.

And why post articles by men that are fallible?
You haven't replied to this.

You remind me of a cunning lawyer. I don't share articles by men in order to imply their interpretation of Scripture is infallible, buy they still may be helpful. Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, So one person sharpens another.

And your articles are junk.
Written to degrade the very church that gave you your bible.

You really stick up for the Roman Catholic church, which is no surprise.

Incredible.

What's the difference between SAVED
and
TRULY SAVED?

Saved is saved (truly saved) yet there are genuine Christians, and there are pseudo Christians. There are genuine believers, and there are make believers, and it's not hard to find them mixed together throughout Scripture, in various churches today and on various Christian forum sites.

And your copy and paste is rather boring.
Are you incapable of a real conversation?

Like I said, cunning lawyer. We need to be Bereens, and not lawyers.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes- Always said this: You're a nice guy and most certainly are following Jesus...
but...
your theology is OFF THE RAILS.

So, I should be trusting in SELF preservation rather than God's preservation? Then my theology would not be off the rails? I could also go back to living in fear and bondage to insecurity and being miserable. No thanks. Been there, done that already.

What do you make of all those warnings in the NT?
All those IF's.

I guess they're PRESCRIPTIVE.

View attachment 85784

Oh.
Descriptive.
Sorry.

GENUINE CHRISTIANS
PSEUDO CHRISTIANS

What other type of Christians are there?

Copy and pasted.
Not interested.

Not interested in the Scriptures I cited? Descriptive passages of Scripture vs. prescriptive passages of Scripture seem to trip you up, which explains why you don't understand many IF passages in Scripture as being conditional confirmations.

 

[Truth7t7]

Unless you can show one verse where the Holy Spirit’s seal is broken before the day of redemption, you have proved nothing.

I Agree 100%, They Can't!

 

[mailmandan]

Oh.

So Jesus died so we could get some rewards.
This has always been an intersting concept to me.

I THOUGHT it was to teach us how to go to heaven.

Let's see what both Jesus and Paul have to say about this odd idea:

Paul ---- Your hero:

Romans 2:6-8
God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

Here's Jesus....you like Him less, but He's the one that died for you, so I like to post Him too:

John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,

29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

They seem to agree.
Must seem strange to you.

So. Take your pick.

It's not about rewards...
It's about SALVATION.

THIS is what the Christian religion teaches.

More 'descriptive' passages of scripture.

In regard to John 5:28-29, Jesus is describing those who did good deeds (believers) and will receive a resurrection of life. Jesus is not saying that these believers were saved based on the merits of their good deeds. What did Jesus say was the basis or means of receiving eternal life in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? *Not good deeds. What did Paul say in Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9? *Not good deeds either. Jesus goes on to describe those who committed evil deeds (unbelievers) to a resurrection of judgment. *Hermeneutics.

*We see the same descriptive language in Romans 2:5-8. These good deeds done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose our heart condition and salvation status.

These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit of, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 3:24-28; 4:4-6; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

 

[Wrangler]

Believing either OSAS or NOSAS is not what saves. Faith in Jesus Christ saves. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Nope. You seem to have a rigid belief about OSAS.

You remind me of a cunning lawyer. I don't share articles by men in order to imply their interpretation of Scripture is infallible, buy they still may be helpful. Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, So one person sharpens another.

Saved is saved (truly saved) yet there are genuine Christians, and there are pseudo Christians. There are genuine believers, and there are make believers, and it's not hard to find them mixed together throughout Scripture, in various churches today and on various Christian forum sites.

Like I said, cunning lawyer. We need to be Bereens, and not lawyers.

Another outstanding post Dan.

In considering any point of doctrine, I often consider the implications in practical terms. Jesus didn't wash his hands before he ate. I prefer to separate dirt from what I eat but it is a trivial matter by today's standards either way. What are the consequences of embracing OSAS?

There are many, starting with rejecting much of Christ's words, and ending with supposing one may act with impunity. Ephesians 2:8,9 is exactly right. Works do not save but show that one is truly faithful. Compare to Matthew 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

OSAS breeds contempt for God's word, the teachings of Jesus and complacency in living out deep and meaningful faith. I'll start another thread on how confident we should be in being saved.

 

[PeterAndroz]

@GodsGrace , @mailmandan, @PeterAndroz

I know from experience it's pointless to interfere in a OSAS vs NOSAS discussion but here we go one more time

Order of things :

Grace = Jesus -> faith -> repentance -> saved (sealed) -> good works / fruits (Eph 2:10)

The absence of one of those 4 will put us in hell.

If the order of things is broken folks will end up in hell.

Meaning -

Without the grace of God and the obedience of the Son to die for the sins of the world all mankind would be lost. That is the meaning of the word grace we often use so easily. All our faith and good works / fruits will not save us. So when Paul says :

Efez 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. -> he means the work of Jesus

And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, -> of course it is not ours
Efez 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. -> exactly Paul, not our work, but of Christ!! we are saved/sealed!

But there is a condition :

Efez 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

If people don't produce good works, don't show fruits they will be cut off, plenty of Scripture passages spoken by Jesus about that.

Paul - I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. [2Tim 4:7]

Whoops, that does not sound very OSAS Paul.

Epilogue : I don't doubt any of you posting in this thread is not saved / is sealed and like Paul will finish the race. As an ex OSAS believer, there are definitely Scripture passages giving the impression of OSAS, but (and I won't judge) I changed my mind looking at the whole counsel. And there are exceptions mentioned in the Bible, people falling from Grace, not many fortunately.

"""Efez 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. -> he means the work of Jesus
Oops, raGG you forget to debunk the other verses, keep trying

Titus 3:
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Gal 2:
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal 3:
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Rom 3:
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Eph 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 4:
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 11:
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[Truth7t7]

OSAS breeds contempt for God's word

The scripture below "Clearly Teaches" OSAS, denial of this biblical fact would be contempt against God's Holy Words of truth presented below

(Eternal Security)

Ephesians 1:13-14KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 10:26-30KJV
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Another outstanding post Dan.

In considering any point of doctrine, I often consider the implications in practical terms. Jesus didn't wash his hands before he ate. I prefer to separate dirt from what I eat but it is a trivial matter by today's standards either way. What are the consequences of embracing OSAS?

There are many, starting with rejecting much of Christ's words, and ending with supposing one may act with impunity. Ephesians 2:8,9 is exactly right. Works do not save but show that one is truly faithful. Compare to Matthew 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

OSAS breeds contempt for God's word, the teachings of Jesus and complacency in living out deep and meaningful faith. I'll start another thread on how confident we should be in being saved.

Now all you need to do is list where Paul teaches what the actual ACTIONS are that are required to be & remain saved/sealed :)
Hit me with them Wrangers :)
Titus 3:
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Gal 2:
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal 3:
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Rom 3:
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Eph 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 4:
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 11:
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[GodsGrace]

Believing either OSAS or NOSAS is not what saves. Faith in Jesus Christ saves. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Agreed.
So why post that when I say a teaching is heretical it means those that believe it are going to hell?
Why post something I NEVER would say?
Jesus will be doing the judging...
NOT ME.

Augustine taught heresy.
Is he not in heaven?
I certainly don't know.
Depends.
I'm happy to leave that up to God.

Nope. You seem to have a rigid belief about OSAS.

Very rigid.
Because the bible does not teach OSAS and it was NEVER taught in the early church.

Interesting that no one on this thread could come up with ONE proof of OSAS being written of in the early church.
Guess it's because the concept NEVER EXISTED....

just as it never existed in the NT.

The Roman Catholic church takes credit for a lot of things and they remain under the delusion that they are the one and only true church.

We might agree on that.

I already proved it from Scripture.

You proved nothing.
And you would not be able to.

What you have done is create conflict in the NT.
You do this by not properly interpreting verses....
by twisting them to mean what you want them to mean.

You post John 10 or John 6
But ignore Colossians 1:20, 2 Peter 2:20, Luke 15:24, etc.

You must IGNORE many many verses to maintain your incorrect theology.

Jesus drew the line in the sand on who will and won't be saved. John 3:18.

So you believe what Jesus said in John 3:18?
Good.

Now try to believe everything he said...
Like this for instance:

John 15:2
2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

Matthew 7:26-27
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

No conflict on my part because I properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. It's your theology that culminates in works-righteousness, that causes conflict in the NT.

We are made righteous by our works.
Jesus demands good works.
Matthew 25:35-46

Those who did NOT DO as for Jesus will go away into eternal punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.


Matthew 25:45-46
’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


By THE RIGHTEOUS Jesus clearly means those that followed His teaching
in Matthew 25 and all through the NT teachings of His.


Luke 6:46
46“Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Face value while negating context and hermeneutics results in contradictions.

They were mentioned in the article that you apparently did not read.

Your article proved nothing.
You really should find out what EARLY CHURCH means.

You deny teachings found in holy scripture.
You deny history.

Your attempt to hold on to incorrect teachings is admirable.

You could try again.
Find proof that OSAS was taught in the early church...
pre Nicea...
pre 325AD

Gnostics believed in OSAS.
Do you know about gnosticism?
So much to know.

You remind me of a cunning lawyer. I don't share articles by men in order to imply their interpretation of Scripture is infallible, buy they still may be helpful. Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, So one person sharpens another.

Dumb iron doesn't sharpen anything.
Your dumb article did not PROVE what I asked of you.

Why?

Because you will not be able to prove something that DID NOT EXIST.
OSAS was NEVER TAUGHT in the EARLY CHURCH.

Some are reading along giving you LIKES.
Telling you what a great post you wrote.

EXCEPT it didn't accomplish what it was supposed to.
PROVE something which you have not yet done.

You really stick up for the Roman Catholic church, which is no surprise.

Jesus said not to hate.
He said hate is like murder.

I like to "stick up" for the truth.
Wherever it be found.

Saved is saved (truly saved) yet there are genuine Christians

Is TRULY SAVED the same as saved?
Is a GENUINE CHRISTIAN the same as a CHRISTIAN?

, and there are pseudo Christians. There are genuine believers, and there are make believers, and it's not hard to find them mixed together throughout Scripture, in various churches today and on various Christian forum sites.

Like I said, cunning lawyer. We need to be Bereens, and not lawyers.

Well, mmd, it does seem that the NT is concerning itself with BELIEVERS.
HOW to become a believer..

John 3:16

HOW to remain a believer...

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.


° Verse 11 ..... Paul is speaking to believers.
° Verses 9 - 10.....These will NOT enter heaven....
Paul warns not to be like These.


Warnings are not necessary
where no danger exists.

 

[GodsGrace]

More 'descriptive' passages of scripture.

In regard to John 5:28-29, Jesus is describing those who did good deeds (believers) and will receive a resurrection of life. Jesus is not saying that these believers were saved based on the merits of their good deeds. What did Jesus say was the basis or means of receiving eternal life in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? *Not good deeds. What did Paul say in Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9? *Not good deeds either. Jesus goes on to describe those who committed evil deeds (unbelievers) to a resurrection of judgment. *Hermeneutics.

Thanks for proving that you do not believe what Jesus teaches.

But you prefer to put words into His mouth.
A dangerous practice.

THIS is what Jesus stated:

John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Jesus does not require your commentary on His teachings.

*We see the same descriptive language in Romans 2:5-8. These good deeds done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

You can believe what you wish to....
Paul is writing for a purpose.

Jesus and Paul and James are teaching that we are to ACT on the words of Jesus.
Matthew 7:24-25

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.

Sounds like we need to obey the truth.

Problem is:
WHAT IS THE TRUTH?

THIS is the truth:


Hebrews 5:1
1Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; 2and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.


3But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; 4and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.


The wrath of God comes upon the sons of DISOBEDIENCE.

And we know mmd,,,,

you believe in obedience...
BUT

Jesus gave us no BUTs

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose our heart condition and salvation status.

These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit of, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 3:24-28; 4:4-6; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Read what I posted again.

Jesus taught that we are saved by WORKS.
Paul taught that we are saved by WORKS.

Faith without works is a DEAD FAITH and will save no one.

 

[GodsGrace]

So, I should be trusting in SELF preservation rather than God's preservation? Then my theology would not be off the rails? I could also go back to living in fear and bondage to insecurity and being miserable. No thanks. Been there, done that already.

1. Where does the NT teach, in any of scripture I post, that we are trusting in self for salvation?
Even OT believers did not believe they were trusting in themselves but in God.

2. Why would anyone want to live in fear and bondage?
Looks like you and Augustine and Luther have a lot in common.
You really should learn some church history.

3. You apparently do not know God very well if you feel you had to fear Him.

Not interested in the Scriptures I cited? Descriptive passages of Scripture vs. prescriptive passages of Scripture seem to trip you up, which explains why you don't understand many IF passages in Scripture as being conditional confirmations.

The NT trips up those who do not believe it or understand it.
Those who teach against what Jesus taught or what Paul taught.
Those who are leading some to hell.


Ephesians 5:6
6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

 

[GodsGrace]

You keep repeating the same definition because you cannot answer the text. Yes, the Holy Spirit is the seal. Yes, He proves God’s ownership. Yes, this is all on God’s end. That destroys your position, not mine.

No.
The fact that the seal, promise, is on God's end destroys YOUR position, not that of @doctrox .

This just shows how much you actually misundestand scripture.

1. You should REALLY find out what the seal is.
But no matter....let's remain ignorant of the facts.

2. God puts HIS SEAL on YOU.
He is declaring that you are HIS.
The seal is indicative of OWNERSHIP.

God owns you.

Question:

Do you want to be owned?
Will you STILL want to be owned 10 years from now?

Unless you're calvinist in theology,,,
you will have to admit that when you were saved..
you DID NOT lose your free will.

Let's make this clear:
GOD KEEPS HIS PROMISES.
2 Timothy 2:13

It is the BELIEVER that may not keep THEIR promise.
2 Timothy 2:12

All is fine on God's end.

All is not fine on OUR END.

Scripture says the Spirit is “the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession” ~Ephesians 1:14. It says believers are “sealed unto the day of redemption” ~Ephesians 4:30. Not sealed until they fail. Not sealed until they walk away. Sealed unto redemption.

You keep saying, “That is not the question,” because the actual question exposes your argument. Can a person sealed by God, indwelt by His Spirit, owned by Him, and guaranteed an inheritance become unsealed before redemption? You have produced no verse that says so.

Grieving the Spirit does not mean losing Him. Paul told sealed believers not to grieve Him. The warning rests on their relationship to Him, not the threat of abandonment.

And ~1 John 2:19 still stands: “They went out from us, but they were not of us.” Their departure exposed their false profession. John did not say they were born of God and then became unborn.

You are not explaining Scripture anymore. You are circling around it because you refuse its conclusion. “Let God be true, but every man a liar” ~Romans 3:4.

Unless you can show one verse where the Holy Spirit’s seal is broken before the day of redemption, you have proved nothing.

 

[ProDeo]

"""Efez 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. -> he means the work of Jesus
Oops, raGG you forget to debunk the other verses, keep trying View attachment 85819

There is nothing to debunk, Scripture is Scripture and everything should fit, including the passages that speak against OSAS, the if's, the warnings.

Matt 24:13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Rev 2:10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matt 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
Matt 16:25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Spoken right after Jesus Foretells His Death and Resurrection, verses 21-23

Meaning one must be ready to give his life if the situation requires so and like Jesus pay the ultimate price, not be like Peter who at the time did not know himself too well and denied Jesus 3 times when his life was in danger.

Pray to the Lord you will be not tested, if you are tested that way then you will know what your OSAS belief is worth keeping in mind the words of Jesus : But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Titus 3:
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Gal 2:
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal 3:
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Rom 3:
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Eph 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 4:
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 11:
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Agreed.
So why post that when I say a teaching is heretical it means those that believe it are going to hell?
Why post something I NEVER would say?
Jesus will be doing the judging...
NOT ME.

Augustine taught heresy.
Is he not in heaven?
I certainly don't know.
Depends.
I'm happy to leave that up to God.


Very rigid.
Because the bible does not teach OSAS and it was NEVER taught in the early church.

Interesting that no one on this thread could come up with ONE proof of OSAS being written of in the early church.
Guess it's because the concept NEVER EXISTED....

just as it never existed in the NT.


We might agree on that.


You proved nothing.
And you would not be able to.

What you have done is create conflict in the NT.
You do this by not properly interpreting verses....
by twisting them to mean what you want them to mean.

You post John 10 or John 6
But ignore Colossians 1:20, 2 Peter 2:20, Luke 15:24, etc.

You must IGNORE many many verses to maintain your incorrect theology.


So you believe what Jesus said in John 3:18?
Good.

Now try to believe everything he said...
Like this for instance:

John 15:2
2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

Matthew 7:26-27
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

We are made righteous by our works.
Jesus demands good works.
Matthew 25:35-46

Those who did NOT DO as for Jesus will go away into eternal punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.


Matthew 25:45-46
’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


By THE RIGHTEOUS Jesus clearly means those that followed His teaching
in Matthew 25 and all through the NT teachings of His.


Luke 6:46
46“Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Your article proved nothing.
You really should find out what EARLY CHURCH means.

You deny teachings found in holy scripture.
You deny history.

Your attempt to hold on to incorrect teachings is admirable.

You could try again.
Find proof that OSAS was taught in the early church...
pre Nicea...
pre 325AD

Gnostics believed in OSAS.
Do you know about gnosticism?
So much to know.


Dumb iron doesn't sharpen anything.
Your dumb article did not PROVE what I asked of you.

Why?

Because you will not be able to prove something that DID NOT EXIST.
OSAS was NEVER TAUGHT in the EARLY CHURCH.

Some are reading along giving you LIKES.
Telling you what a great post you wrote.

EXCEPT it didn't accomplish what it was supposed to.
PROVE something which you have not yet done.


Jesus said not to hate.
He said hate is like murder.

I like to "stick up" for the truth.
Wherever it be found.


Is TRULY SAVED the same as saved?
Is a GENUINE CHRISTIAN the same as a CHRISTIAN?



Well, mmd, it does seem that the NT is concerning itself with BELIEVERS.
HOW to become a believer..

John 3:16

HOW to remain a believer...

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.


° Verse 11 ..... Paul is speaking to believers.
° Verses 9 - 10.....These will NOT enter heaven....
Paul warns not to be like These.


Warnings are not necessary
where no danger exists.

° Verse 11 ..... Paul is speaking to believers.
° Verses 9 - 10.....These will NOT enter heaven....
Paul warns not to be like These.
..
So verse 11 believers never again sinned as in 9-10 ?

 

[PeterAndroz]

There is nothing to debunk, Scripture is Scripture and everything should fit, including the passages that speak against OSAS, the if's, the warnings.

Matt 24:13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Rev 2:10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matt 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
Matt 16:25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Spoken right after Jesus Foretells His Death and Resurrection, verses 21-23

Meaning one must be ready to give his life if the situation requires so and like Jesus pay the ultimate price, not be like Peter who at the time did not know himself too well and denied Jesus 3 times when his life was in danger.

Pray to the Lord you will be not tested, if you are tested that way then you will know what your OSAS belief is worth keeping in mind the words of Jesus : But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Jesus taught Paul to teach how you today are saved & not Matthew.
If you can't get Paul to support you then you are wrong
..

 

[ProDeo]

Jesus taught Paul to teach how you today are saved & not Matthew.
If you can't get Paul to support you then you are wrong
..

Joh 21:15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.”
Joh 21:16 He said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.”
Joh 21:17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.
Joh 21:18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go.”
Joh 21:19 (This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, “Follow me.”

Are you willing to die for Jesus Peter ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus taught Paul to teach how you today are saved & not Matthew.
If you can't get Paul to support you then you are wrong
..

I have Jesus for my support.
I have Paul for my support.

You don't trust ANYONE.
You trust your flawed theology.

Proof that it is very flawed because there is one Body...
not two.

All the writers of the NT agreed with each other.

JESUS:
John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

PAUL:
Romans 2:6-8
God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

JAMES:
James 1:22
22But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.



By the above we can see that:

° We will be judged by our deeds.
° Those who are unrighteous and do not OBEY the truth....wrath.
° We must be doers of the word or we delude ourselves.

 

[Wrangler]

The scripture below "Clearly Teaches" OSAS

No, it doesn't. The problem with the OSAS crowd is they treat as equal 2 groups, those who remain faithful and those who don't. Then they invoke a Post Hoc fallacy that if they didn't remain faithful, they were never saved to begin with.

This is why there are so many of Christs words that prove OSAS is not Biblical such as the condition IF you remain in me, I will remain in you.

 

[GodsGrace]

° Verse 11 ..... Paul is speaking to believers.
° Verses 9 - 10.....These will NOT enter heaven....
Paul warns not to be like These.
..
So verse 11 believers never again sinned as in 9-10 ?

I'm afraid you'll have to connect the dots.

Scripture must be posted if you want to discuss it.

Not doing your work for you.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, it doesn't. The problem with the OSAS crowd is they treat as equal 2 groups, those who remain faithful and those who don't. Then they invoke a Post Hoc fallacy that if they didn't remain faithful, they were never saved to begin with.

This is why there are so many of Christs words that prove OSAS is not Biblical such as the condition IF you remain in me, I will remain in you.

Thanks for the name of this fallacy Wrangler....
I've been searching for it !
POST HOC FALLACY

Right.
In effect, the OSAS people are agreeing that we won't know if we're saved and if we've continued in our faith
UNTIL the end....

making the case for NOSAS !