If sealed with the HS, how does one become UNsealed ?

[Lambano]

When the Goyim were let in....
did the doctrine change?

Obviously it did. See Acts 15, Council of Jerusalem.

And I doubt James was as conciliatory as Luke portrays him here. You can still see his tension with Paul in his Epistle.

 

[Lambano]

If you supply the bread.

Will Jesus be there?

 

[mailmandan]

Dan....
Notice how your list starts in 325AD !!

Thanks for proving my point !
(change is not good)

Always nice to get help from you.

What point of your's did I prove? When did the Roman Catholic church start? Not until the early fourth century which explains why the list doesn't go back further.

 

[mailmandan]

Dan....
Notice how your list starts in 325AD !!

Thanks for proving my point !
(change is not good)

Always nice to get help from you.

Do you believe that the teachings of the early church fathers were all correct? Including infant baptism and the real presence of Christ in the bread which later was known as transubstantiation by Roman Catholicism.

Origen​

“Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous” (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).

St. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110 AD): He wrote that heretics "abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ".

The early church fathers were not infallible, and did not all agree on everything.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Confirmed by Paul in 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30 for today
But what about early Acts BEFORE Paul ?
What verses do you believe teach how the HS was received then ?

Well in OT times, the spirit was ondwelling, which is why David could pray take not they spirit from me.

Since Pentecost, every one saved has received the Holy Spirit to indwell

Acts 2:38, Acts 10:43-47

 

[Grailhunter]

Your claim is false, (O)nce (S)ealed (A)lways (S)ealed until the day of redemption, God's not a liar

(Eternal Security)

Ephesians 1:13-14KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 10:26-30KJV
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

My claim is true.
No one gets a license to sin card.'

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done in the body, whether good or bad” 2nd Corinthians 5:10

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [a]miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.”

Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

Philippians 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God”

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:3-5 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Romans 2:5-6 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person according to his deeds:

 

[GodsGrace]

I saw him over on Worthy Christian Forums. Still talking about tattoos and piercings, bless his heart.

Domini non dignus sum. Unfortunately, I don't qualify for anything "Worthy".

Does that mean NOT WORTHY OF GOD??
or
GOD I AM NOT WORHTY??

And how come you know Latin?

My granddaugher speaks 4 languages (or is it 5)
she had to take one year of Latin.
She didn't like it but said it was easy to learn.
I hear this about Koine Greek too, but I turned it down some years ago.
I'm not sorry...nuff languages for me.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well in OT times, the spirit was ondwelling, which is why David could pray take not they spirit from me.

Since Pentecost, every one saved has received the Holy Spirit to indwell

Acts 2:38, Acts 10:43-47

Just fell on this when replying.
Did you just contradict yourself??
Check it out.

In the OT the Spirit did NOT indwell the believer.
I think it's just a typo.

 

[GodsGrace]

Personally I believe that we should just teach the scripture and let people decide for themselves. If that if what a person is lead to do. Yes we are all healing in some way or another I suppose mainly the heart hopefully to abide in Christ having faith in God and loving our neighbor as ourselves. It’s not about going and combating the world.

Who's combatting the world.
Do you not care that some are changing the very faith that you believe to be true?
Or maybe you're one of those that wishes to change it.

I believe the Christian religion is fine the way it was at the beginning and it should remain the way Jesus wanted it to be....
not the way some men have changed it.

And no...
people cannot decide for themselves what to believe.
This is the reason this religion is in the mess it's in.

But it's OK
We're each useful to God in different ways.

 

[GodsGrace]

I saw him over on Worthy Christian Forums. Still talking about tattoos and piercings, bless his heart.

Domini non dignus sum. Unfortunately, I don't qualify for anything "Worthy".

I think I'm a member there.
Maybe I'll go look for him tomorrow...
will advise.

 

[GodsGrace]

Read it years ago. Here's a good link: Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

11:30PM here.
Was just closing down.
Went to your link for a quick look - no way I could have read it right now.
MY BRAIN ALMOST BLEW UP!
Oh my gosh.
Will check out the site tomorrow.
As you know...I love the ECFs.
The EARLY church fathers.

But the list includes gnostics?
And how am I supposed to know which ones are gnostic?
I'm not a walking encyclopedia you know.
And to have to read each one would take too long and waste time.
I know which ones I like and stick to those.

 

[MatthewG]

Who's combatting the world.
Do you not care that some are changing the very faith that you believe to be true?
Or maybe you're one of those that wishes to change it.

I believe the Christian religion is fine the way it was at the beginning and it should remain the way Jesus wanted it to be....
not the way some men have changed it.

And no...
people cannot decide for themselves what to believe.
This is the reason this religion is in the mess it's in.

But it's OK
We're each useful to God in different ways.

I understand your concern, and I agree that the faith should remain rooted in what was true from the beginning — the message that came from Yeshua and the apostles, not later traditions or systems created by men.

But I do believe people can decide for themselves what to believe, because Scripture consistently shows that faith is a personal response. No one can force another person to believe that Yahavah raised Yeshua from the dead. That is something each individual must choose in their own heart.

I’m not trying to change the faith. I’m simply saying that a person’s relationship with God does not depend on attending a specific building. What matters is whether their faith is genuine, whether they seek understanding by the Spirit, and whether they look at what the Bible actually says instead of accepting teachings that are made up without any scriptural foundation.

If a gathering teaches truth, encourages people to study for themselves, and stays faithful to Scripture, then it can be beneficial. But when people are discouraged from thinking, questioning, or searching the Scriptures, that’s when the faith becomes distorted.

We may see things differently, but I respect your viewpoint. And I agree with you on this much — God uses each of us in different ways.

 

[Grailhunter]

11:30PM here.
Was just closing down.
Went to your link for a quick look - no way I could have read it right now.
MY BRAIN ALMOST BLEW UP!
Oh my gosh.
Will check out the site tomorrow.
As you know...I love the ECFs.
The EARLY church fathers.

But the list includes gnostics?
And how am I supposed to know which ones are gnostic?
I'm not a walking encyclopedia you know.
And to have to read each one would take too long and waste time.
I know which ones I like and stick to those.

That is great site GodsGrace.
And as far as early Christian Writings, you have to be careful about what they label Gnostic. Gnostic is a
derogatory term. The term Gnostic did not exist before the 17th century so they could not have called themselves that.
(The term “Gnosticism” was first used in print in 1669, in a work by the English poet and philosopher of religion Henry More) The meaning of the word is loose.....have knowledge.....secret knowledge....Gnostic effectively means I do not like you or what you believe in. These people were secretive......and good at it. Most of what we think we know about them comes from the writings criticizing them. Mostly a secret way of becoming saved.

So you have to take these early Christian writings on their own merit.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Well in OT times, the spirit was ondwelling, which is why David could pray take not they spirit from me.

Since Pentecost, every one saved has received the Holy Spirit to indwell

Acts 2:38, Acts 10:43-47

AS OF 1 Cor 15:1-4, the HS is received ONLY by believing & trusting the Gospel, nothing else by no-one.

BEFORE 1 Cor 15:14
Acts 2:38.. Repent, and be baptized ...
Acts 8:15-17
15.., prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
...
Do you see the differences ?
As of 1 Cor 15:1-4 --- Faith ALONE, nothing else
After 1 Cor 15:1-4 - Faith PLUS pray, lay hands by others

 

[Grailhunter]

I understand your concern, and I agree that the faith should remain rooted in what was true from the beginning — the message that came from Yeshua and the apostles, not later traditions or systems created by men.

But I do believe people can decide for themselves what to believe, because Scripture consistently shows that faith is a personal response. No one can force another person to believe that Yahavah raised Yeshua from the dead. That is something each individual must choose in their own heart.

I’m not trying to change the faith. I’m simply saying that a person’s relationship with God does not depend on attending a specific building. What matters is whether their faith is genuine, whether they seek understanding by the Spirit, and whether they look at what the Bible actually says instead of accepting teachings that are made up without any scriptural foundation.

If a gathering teaches truth, encourages people to study for themselves, and stays faithful to Scripture, then it can be beneficial. But when people are discouraged from thinking, questioning, or searching the Scriptures, that’s when the faith becomes distorted.

We may see things differently, but I respect your viewpoint. And I agree with you on this much — God uses each of us in different ways.

Ya, I know that people come up with different reasons for not going to church. We can tell by reading the scriptures that they would gather and worship. The Last Supper would look a lot different if it was just Yeshua breaking bread and drinking wine alone. The Last Supper is what early church services looked like. They worshipped in homes, catacombs, etc no church buildings until the 4th century.

The thing is, this whole thing why I do not go to church, equates to why I do not associate with other Christians.....and a lot of times it equates to, you cannot get along with people. We should fellowship and worship with other Christians. The building really does not have anything to do with it. You can gather and fellowship and worship the Lord in your house, someone's house, the park.......have a picnic and sing hymns and worship the Lord.

 

[MatthewG]

Ya, I know that people come up with different reasons for not going to church. We can tell by reading the scriptures that they would gather and worship. The Last Supper would look a lot different if it was just Yeshua breaking bread and drinking wine alone. The Last Supper is what early church services looked like. They worshipped in homes, catacombs, etc no church buildings until the 4th century.

The thing is, this whole thing why I do not go to church, equates to why I do not associate with other Christians.....and a lot of times it equates to, you cannot get along with people. We should fellowship and worship with other Christians. The building really does not have anything to do with it. You can gather and fellowship and worship the Lord in your house, someone's house, the park.......have a picnic and sing hymns and worship the Lord.

I hear what you’re saying about fellowship, and I agree that believers gathering together can be a good thing when it’s healthy, sincere, and grounded in truth. But the part that concerns me is when people start judging someone’s relationship with God based on whether they attend a certain gathering or not.

That’s where it goes too far.

Not everyone avoids church because they “can’t get along with people.” Some avoid it because of:

• spiritual abuse • manipulation • false teaching • pressure and control • hypocrisy • trauma • or simply because the environment isn’t healthy for them

And none of those things disqualify someone from having a real relationship with Yahavah.

A person’s walk with God is not measured by how often they sit in a building or how many Christians they socialize with. It’s measured by the heart — faith, sincerity, truth, and the Spirit’s work within them.

People should be allowed to walk out their faith without others assuming they’re doing something wrong just because they don’t fit a certain mold. Not everything has to be forced or pressured. Sometimes people just need space to grow, learn, and seek God without being judged for it.

That’s all I’m saying — let people be, and let God deal with their hearts. He sees what we can’t.

 

[Grailhunter]

I hear what you’re saying about fellowship, and I agree that believers gathering together can be a good thing when it’s healthy, sincere, and grounded in truth. But the part that concerns me is when people start judging someone’s relationship with God based on whether they attend a certain gathering or not.

That’s where it goes too far.

Not everyone avoids church because they “can’t get along with people.” Some avoid it because of:

• spiritual abuse • manipulation • false teaching • pressure and control • hypocrisy • trauma • or simply because the environment isn’t healthy for them

And none of those things disqualify someone from having a real relationship with Yahavah.

A person’s walk with God is not measured by how often they sit in a building or how many Christians they socialize with. It’s measured by the heart — faith, sincerity, truth, and the Spirit’s work within them.

People should be allowed to walk out their faith without others assuming they’re doing something wrong just because they don’t fit a certain mold. Not everything has to be forced or pressured. Sometimes people just need space to grow, learn, and seek God without being judged for it.

That’s all I’m saying — let people be, and let God deal with their hearts. He sees what we can’t.

LOL Ya know there was a time when some well known Christians isolated themselves out in the wilderness, caves, trees, towers, etc. Was that serving the Lord. How would it have worked out if Yeshua and the Apostles each lived in a separate closets. Can you serve the Lord from a closet? Do we have any scriptures that suggest Christian hermit living? It not that I cannot get along, I am just afraid someone might say something wrong.

You and I have had this conversation before. Grow a set and go out spread the word, share ideas, lesson to people, stand with people with arms raised high and worship the Lord.

 

[gpresdo]

The Bible teaches we ARE sealed, list the verses that teach differently please.
Eph 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

You must maintain..."until the end". Many scriptures.

 

[Lambano]

Domini non dignus sum.

Does that mean NOT WORTHY OF GOD??
or
GOD I AM NOT WORHTY??

The latter. I had hoped you might recognize it. It is from the traditional Latin Eucharist prayer, if you've ever attended a Latin Mass. We Methodists have a similar traditional prayer before Communion: Lord, we are not worthy so much as to gather the crumbs from under thy table...

 

[MatthewG]

LOL Ya know there was a time when some well known Christians isolated themselves out in the wilderness, caves, trees, towers, etc. Was that serving the Lord. How would it have worked out if Yeshua and the Apostles each lived in a separate closets. Can you serve the Lord from a closet? Do we have any scriptures that suggest Christian hermit living? It not that I cannot get along, I am just afraid someone might say something wrong.

You and I have had this conversation before. Grow a set and go out spread the word, share ideas, lesson to people, stand with people with arms raised high and worship the Lord.

I don’t understand where you get off speaking to me like this like I asked you for a pep talk and a pat on the back. It’s weird and strange.

I know my background and history. You do not.