IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE TO KEEP THE SABBATH THEN CONSIDER THIS

[HealthyShape]

Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, which included keeping the Sabbath holy, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of Paul as he is of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1)...

Define precisely how in the modern global era must this Iron Age law be kept.

How do you keep the Jewish Sabbath in Antarctica where the Sun does not set for 6 months? Are you allowed to drive a car? Are you allowed to use electricity, computers? Are you allowed to listen to a radio? To watch a movie? To participate in online forums? To create an order on an e-shop? Are you allowed to heat your house in countries that have cold winters? What about the countries following the ISO week that have Sunday as the 7th day, which day should they keep?

There are no clear instructions for us, because the law is not for us. It was for a simple tribal society in a specific geographical area, which was centered around a temple worship. When Christianity went to the whole global world, such local pre-Christian shadows stopped working.

 

[HealthyShape]

You do not know scripture, and should not be teaching, sharing on it, as you are. You need to go and learn the basics again.

Let's get real.

Seventh Day Adventists (which is your group) originated in the 19th century after the failed Millerite prophecy about the end of the world and follow uncritically a 19th century prophetess. They can hardly tell orthodox Christians to "go and learn the basics".

Interestingly, but many modern sects originated in the USA in the 19th century - Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Messianic Jews, Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Science... And they all claim they have the patent for truth.

 

[Button]

I think the mistake many make is thinking the Jews obeyed the law of God so to be saved. They didn't do that because they need not do that.

The Jews were saved,redeemed,after leaving Egypt. Obeying Torah,God's laws, was a responsibility and response to God's love. Not a means to earn Salvation.

 

[HealthyShape]

I think the mistake many make is thinking the Jews obeyed the law of God so to be saved. They didn't do that because they need not do that.

The Jews were saved,redeemed,after leaving Egypt. Obeying Torah,God's laws, was a responsibility and response to God's love. Not a means to eagn Salvation.

It is no mistake.

"Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do any work on that day must be cut off from their people."
Ex 31:13

Many modern Sabbatarians try to make it all soft and nice and for health, even something you privately decide how to observe it and so on. But these are Ellen White's ideas, not found in the Bible.

If you need to observe Sabbath, it is no joyful playing. It is slavery and you need to observe it very carefully and strictly, as Pharisees tried to do.

21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. 24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.
Gal 4

 

[Adventageous]

It is no mistake.

"Say to the Israelites,...

You confuse physical / natural Israel, with the original true / spiritual Israel, for whom the sabbath was made originally, and thus all in Him:

Jesus is the Real & True & Spiritual Israel In the New Testament, the gospel writer Matthew, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit (2 Tim. 3:16-17 KJB), retells the history of the early days of the child Jesus, and His having to flee into the country of Egypt, because of the evil intentions of Herod (Mat. 2:1-12; Rev. 12:4 KJB), and states that Jesus is the true fulfillment of the prophecy of Hosea, and is the “son” of God called “Israel” (Mat. 2:13-15,19-21; Hos. 11:1 KJB).

Jesus is the Real, Original, Eternal and True Son of God the Father; the real “Israel” (Rom. 9:6-8 KJB), the “Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16 KJB). In Mat. 2:13-15,19-21; Hos. 11:1 KJB Jesus is identified by the Father, through the Holy Spirit who inspired Matthew to cite Hos. 11:1 KJB as being truly fulfilled by Jesus, who is named “Israel”

• (and no marvel for Jesus is also named, “Adam” (1 Cor. 15:45-47 KJB), “David” (Jer. 30:9; Eze. 34:23-24, 37:24-25; Hos. 3:5 KJB), ‘Solomon’ (“Prince of Peace” (Isa. 9:6 KJB), “son of David” (Mat. 1:1; Luk. 3:31 KJB, &c.), “Levi” (Mal. 2:4-7 KJB), and many others, for all the scriptures testify of Jesus (Jhn. 5:39; Luk. 24:27; Psa. 40:7; Heb. 10:7; Act. 3:18 KJB)).

Jesus is the Real and True “overcomer” (Jhn. 16:33; Rev. 3:21 KJB) and “Prince” (Isa. 9:6; Dan. 8:11,25, 9:25, 10:13,21, 11:22, 12:1; Act. 3:15, 5:31; Rev. 1:5 KJB) with God His Father, which is what the name “Israel” means (Gen. 32:28, 35:10 KJB). Jesus is the very “elect” (Isa. 42:1; Mat. 12:18; 1 Pet. 2:6 KJB) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God the Father find their realization and true fulfillment (2 Cor. 1:20; Psa. 2:8, 116:14,18 KJB). Jesus is the “Lord” over His own house, whose house are Christians / Disciples (Psa. 98:3; Heb. 3:6; Jer. 31:33 KJB).

• Since Jesus is the Real and True Israel, who then are His children?​

  The disciples of Jesus are His Real and True children, given Him by the Father (Jhn. 13:33; Heb. 2:13 KJB, citing Isa. 8:16,18 KJB in context of Isa. 8:8-20 KJB, “Immanuel”, “God with us”, “sanctuary”, “stone”, “rock”, “LORD of Hosts”). Just as the Jacob / Israel after the flesh had the 12 patriarchs (Gen. 35:22 KJB), so too Jesus has the 12 Apostles (Mat. 10:2; Luk. 6:13, 22:14; Rev. 21:14 KJB); and all whom they taught, the number of whom is as the “sand of the sea” (Isa. 10:22 KJB). Though there was a “natural” “Israel”, “after the flesh”, Jesus is the Real and True “spiritual” (1 Cor. 15:45-47 KJB) “Israel”, “of God”, “after the Spirit” (Rom. 8:4 KJB). For the Law of God (Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath of the LORD, Exo. 20:1-17 KJB) is “spiritual” (Rom. 7:14 KJB), and can only be kept by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Jer. 31:31-34; Heb. 8:8-13, 10:16; Eze. 11:19-20, 36:22-38, 37:26-28; 2 Cor. 3:3,6 KJB). There, “remaineth therefore a rest (sabbatismos, Sabbath keeping in spirit and in truth; Jhn. 4:23-24; Isa. 66:22-23; Rev. 14:6-12 KJB) to the people of God” (Heb. 4:9; Heb. 4:1-12; Mat. 11:28; Exo. 33:14 KJB), and because they love Him who first loved them, they keep His commandments (Jhn. 14:15; Exo. 20:6; Rev. 12:17, 14:7,12; Exo. 20:11 KJB), which are not grievous (1 Jhn. 5:3 KJB), especially the Sabbath which was “made for” (Mar. 2:27 KJB) Him / them (Col. 1:16; 1 Tim. 2:5; 1 Cor. 15:45-47 KJB), never being ‘against’ Him / them; being “light” (Pro. 6:23; Isa. 8:20, 51:4 KJB), never a shadow; fulfilled in grace / mercy (Exo. 20:2,6 KJB), thus to be kept holy by all in Christ Jesus in the everlasting covenant (Isa. 56:1,8; Jhn. 10:16; Isa. 56:2-7 KJB).
  
  
• “Israel”, merely “after the flesh” (1 Cor. 10:18 KJB), outside of Christ Jesus, as a ‘nation’ (individuals can still be saved if they call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ), is left “desolate” (Mat. 23:38; Luk. 13:35 KJB), because they failed to keep the sabbath of the LORD (Exo. 16:28, 20:12-13, 20-24; Num. 15:32-41; Psa. 95:11; Heb. 3:11, 4:3,5 KJB), being not mixed with faith (Heb. 4:2; Rom. 14:23 KJB), and are to bear no more “fruit” ever again (Mat. 21:19 KJB), being cursed, and withered away (Mar. 11:21 KJB), dried up from the root (Mar. 11:20 KJB), being “twice dead” (Jud. 1:12 KJB), for the axe was already laid at their root (Mat. 3:10; Luk. 3:9 KJB), and so was cut down, and thrown into the fire (Isa. 9:14; Jhn. 15:6; Mat. 22:7; Luk. 21:20 KJB), and will be so again in the lake of fire to come (Rev. 20:15, 21:8; 1 Jhn. 2:4 KJB). - Image - https://ia800104.us.archive.org/9/items/the-real-israel-jesus_202301/The Real Israel - Jesus.png
  
  
  
• See also for whom the sabbath was made: Who Was The Sabbath Really Made For Jesus Image : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
  See also Chapter 3, page 4 - The 7th Day The Sabbath - The Rest Of His Eternal Story (by Aaron Earnest) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
  
  
  For Whom was the Sabbath really made for?​
  
  
  Genesis 2:1 KJB - Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.​
  ​
  Genesis 2:2 KJB - And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.​
  ​
  Genesis 2:3 KJB - And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.​
  ​
  Mark 2:27 KJB - And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for [the] man, and not man for the sabbath:​
  ​
  Mark 2:27 GNT TR - και ελεγεν αυτοις το σαββατον δια τον ανθρωπον εγενετο ουχ ο ανθρωπος δια το σαββατον​
  ​
  Mark 2:28 KJB - Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.​
  ​
  Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:​
  ​
  Colossians 1:17 KJB - And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.​
  ​
  Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.​
  ​
  1 Timothy 2:5 KJB - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;​
  ​
  1 Corinthians 15:45 KJB - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.​
  ​
  1 Corinthians 15:46 KJB - Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.​
  ​
  1 Corinthians 15:47 KJB - The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.​
  
  Was it not plain?

 

[Adventageous]

21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law

You confuse laws in Galatians.

Paul's reference is to the "book of the law":

Gal_3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.​

He is not referring to the Ten Commandments, which are never "the works of the law", but the standard of character (Exo. 33:12-23, 34:1-9, 20:5-7 KJB). He is referring to those shadowy type laws of the sanctuary and those associated "works" (killing animals, lighting candles, burning incense, etc, etc) that pointed to Christ Jesus' ministry that would cleanse (truly) from the transgressed Law of God (Ten Commandments):

There are no curses in the Ten Commandments, only promises of God toward the repetant believer in the everlasting Covenant.

 

[Adventageous]

Let's get real.

Seventh Day Adventists (which is your group) originated in the 19th century after the failed Millerite prophecy about the end of the world and follow uncritically a 19th century prophetess. They can hardly tell orthodox Christians to "go and learn the basics".

Interestingly, but many modern sects originated in the USA in the 19th century - Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Messianic Jews, Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Science... And they all claim they have the patent for truth.

I am real. What you mean to do by your reply is to get personal, and attack a group and even a dead woman, rather than address what I stated from scripture. In other words, you want to go on a non-sequitur, red-herring and possibly poisoning the well fallacies, among other things.

The Seventh-day Adventists were officially named in 1863-64, correct. They existed from among various groups, that go back to the orginal disciples, back to the original followers of God in the OT. You can read, Truth Triumphant by Benjamin G. Wilkinsn - Doctrine Bible Benjamin G Wilkinson Truth Triumphant : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive to help clear up some of that, or my own work, chapter 14, pages 186-361 - The 7th Day The Sabbath - The Rest Of His Eternal Story (by Aaron Earnest) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive and there are a few other books I can recommend as well.

Millerites, were Millerites. Some were adventists, but not all. Some later became Seventh-day Adventists. Yes, William Miller admitted his mistake in identifying one of the symbols in the prophecies of Daniel. Its in his apology - Book History Memoirs Of William Miller By Sylvester Bliss : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
- William Miller's Apology And Defence, August 1 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
- William Miller's Apology And Defence, August 1845 August 13 V 10 N 1 P 1 6 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Any may see a re-enactment of that history here - Tell The World - Re-Enactment Film & Trailer : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

It was foretold to be so, as the disiciples went through their Great Disappoinment, so too would those at the end of the Great prophetic time period - Video -

Powerpoints - Jesus - A Man Of Sorrows (Sermon by brother Aaron Earnest) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

As for the comment, "follow uncriticaly a 19th century prophetess". have you not read the history of all the critical tests done by friends, neighbours, enemies, occultists, christians, etc? Uncritical? You have obviously not bothered to read what they did to test her, physically, mentally, spiritually, &c. Consider the book "Messenger of the LORD" by Hebert Douglass - http://www.theoakisintheacorn.com/u.../messenger_of_the_lord_-_herbert_douglass.pdf

You can also consider all of the files at the White Estate firsthand!

The extra readings for this week highlight how Ellen White’s prophetic claims were tested and ultimately accepted as genuine. The biblical principle of testing prophets was applied to her gift as well. The first resource presents Ellen White’s own account of how some believers doubted her visions and how she responded to their skepticism.

"Herbert Douglass outlines key principles for evaluating genuine prophetic manifestations, while Theodore Levterov explores how early Sabbath-keeping Adventists concluded that Ellen White was a true prophet. Finally, C. B. Haynes examines the biblical tests of the gift of prophecy, including the test of fulfilled predictions, with examples from Ellen White’s ministry.

• Ellen G. White, “Wrong Use of the Visions,” Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, pp. 382-384.
• Herbert E. Douglass, Messenger of the Lord, pp. 28-33.
• Theodore N. Levterov, “How Early Sabbath-keeping Adventists Accepted Ellen G. White as a True Prophet,” in The Gift of Prophecy in Scripture and History, pp. 249-269.
• Carlyle B. Haynes, The Gift of Prophecy, pp. 108-124; 153-162.
• Link: Ellen G. White® Estate: Lesson 9: Testing the Prophets ..." - Ellen G. White® Estate: Lesson 9: Testing the Prophets

I even have quotations from her enemies about her godly life!

 

[HealthyShape]

I am real. What you mean to do by your reply is to get personal, and attack a group and even a dead woman, rather than address what I stated from scripture. In other words, you want to go on a non-sequitur, red-herring and possibly poisoning the well fallacies, among other things.

The Seventh-day Adventists were officially named in 1863-64, correct. They existed from among various groups, that go back to the orginal disciples, back to the original followers of God in the OT. You can read, Truth Triumphant by Benjamin G. Wilkinsn - Doctrine Bible Benjamin G Wilkinson Truth Triumphant : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive to help clear up some of that, or my own work, chapter 14, pages 186-361 - The 7th Day The Sabbath - The Rest Of His Eternal Story (by Aaron Earnest) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive and there are a few other books I can recommend as well.

Millerites, were Millerites. Some were adventists, but not all. Some later became Seventh-day Adventists. Yes, William Miller admitted his mistake in identifying one of the symbols in the prophecies of Daniel. Its in his apology - Book History Memoirs Of William Miller By Sylvester Bliss : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Any may see a re-enactment of that history here - Tell The World - Re-Enactment Film & Trailer : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

It was foretold to be so, as the disiciples went through their Great Disappoinment, so too would those at the end of the Great prophetic time period - Video -

Powerpoints - Jesus - A Man Of Sorrows (Sermon by brother Aaron Earnest) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

As for the comment, "follow uncriticaly a 19th century prophetess". have you not read the history of all the critical tests done by friends, neighbours, enemies, occultists, christians, etc? Uncritical? You have ohbviously not bothered to read what they did to test her, physically, mentally, spiritually, &c. Consider the book "Messenger of the LORD" by Hebert Douglass - http://www.theoakisintheacorn.com/u.../messenger_of_the_lord_-_herbert_douglass.pdf

You can also consider all of the files a the White Estate firsthand!

The extra readings for this week highlight how Ellen White’s prophetic claims were tested and ultimately accepted as genuine. The biblical principle of testing prophets was applied to her gift as well. The first resource presents Ellen White’s own account of how some believers doubted her visions and how she responded to their skepticism.

"Herbert Douglass outlines key principles for evaluating genuine prophetic manifestations, while Theodore Levterov explores how early Sabbath-keeping Adventists concluded that Ellen White was a true prophet. Finally, C. B. Haynes examines the biblical tests of the gift of prophecy, including the test of fulfilled predictions, with examples from Ellen White’s ministry.

• Ellen G. White, “Wrong Use of the Visions,” Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, pp. 382-384.
• Herbert E. Douglass, Messenger of the Lord, pp. 28-33.
• Theodore N. Levterov, “How Early Sabbath-keeping Adventists Accepted Ellen G. White as a True Prophet,” in The Gift of Prophecy in Scripture and History, pp. 249-269.
• Carlyle B. Haynes, The Gift of Prophecy, pp. 108-124; 153-162.
• Link: Ellen G. White® Estate: Lesson 9: Testing the Prophets ..." - Ellen G. White® Estate: Lesson 9: Testing the Prophets

I even have quotations from her enemies about her godly life!

So, you basically agree with what I said (because it is factual), you just want to convert me to follow Ellen White, too. And of course, as every sect, you try to postulate that you have always existed and that you are somehow historically linked to the apostolic church. It is a classic move.

It is interesting that almost all the sects that originated in the 19th century USA have some source of extrabiblical "revelation" - Adventits have Ellen White, Jehovah Witnesses have the Watch Tower, Mormons have the Book of Mormon etc.

 

[HealthyShape]

There are no curses in the Ten Commandments, only promises of God toward the repetant believer in the everlasting Covenant.

"Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do any work on that day must be cut off from their people."
Ex 31:13

 

[shepherdsword]

I find it hard to believe you think you've won some sort of victory with the above. Sure, there are some grey areas like using electricity on the Sabbath, or even water. But Adventists i know do not go to restaurants on the Sabbath, or visit malls or supermarkets. My church has had 160 years to consider and pray about these issues. They aren't new.

Do you see a "halo of light" around the 4th commandment like Ellen White did? She got her sabbath doctrine from a tract written by Joseph Bates titled Seventh-day Sabbath.

 

[Doug]

If God protected it,the Romans would have failed to destroy it.

It was said Jesus destroyed the temple in 70AD and this is now explained by you that in not protecting the temple he actively destroyed it. That is just an opinion. It remains that the only relationship Christ had to the temple destruction was to prophesize of its destruction

 

[Adventageous]

Interestingly, but many modern sects originated in the USA in the 19th century - Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Messianic Jews, Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Science... And they all claim they have the patent for truth.

Interestingly, but many sects originated in the days around Jesus' own time, 1st century AD, just as Theudas, Judas of Galillee, Barabas, Zealots, Simon Magus, Saducees, Essenes, Pharisees, etc, and yet among all those proclaiming to be the truth, a few were true (John the Baptist, Jesus, Apostles). Many shards of glass satan throws out at specific prophetic time periods to hide the arrival of the truth in the right time. Satan can read Daniel, Jeremiah, etc, just as well as humanity can. 1844 is a very unique year in history. :)

 

[Doug]

I’m not sure that extends to those who are not your servants, including in business for themselves plumbers, restaurant owners, carpenters, etc.

I think so because Exodus 20:10 says here " nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:" A stranger has no direct relationship with the individual keeping sabbath

 

[Adventageous]

Do you see a "halo of light" around the 4th commandment like Ellen White did? She got her sabbath doctrine from a tract written by Joseph Bates titled Seventh-day Sabbath.

Yes, as the symbol of the rainbow covenant is in the glory of the name of God at its center, and if you would do a simple word study, you too can see it right out of scripture.

 

[HealthyShape]

Interestingly, but many sects originated in the days around Jesus' own time, 1st century AD, just as Theudas, Judas of Galillee, Barabas, Zealots, Simon Magus, Saducees, Essenes, Pharisees, etc, and yet among all those proclaiming to be the truth, a few were true (John the Baptist, Jesus, Apostles). Many shards of glass satan throws out at specific prophetic time periods to hide the arrival of the truth in the right time. Satan can read Daniel, Jeremiah, etc, just as well as humanity can. 1844 is a very unique year in history. :)

And all those sects are gone, only the orthodox Christianity remained. The same will happen with the 19th century sects. They will not exist after 2,000 years, but the orthodox Christianity will.

 

[Adventageous]

It was said Jesus destroyed the temple in 70AD and this is now explained by you that in not protecting the temple he actively destroyed it. That is just an opinion. It remains that the only relationship Christ had to the temple destruction was to prophesize of its destruction

Daniel 9 is about Jesus, aka "Messiah the Prince" (Dan. 9:25), and "Messiah ... the prince" (Dan. 9:26):

​

Dan 9:27 KJB - And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.​

You can see an interlinear here - Daniel 9:27 Interlinear: And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'

The word "he" is a pronoun (third person masculine singular), referring back to the noun "Messiah the prince", "Messiah ... the prince" (vss. 25,26). The word "Messiah" (H4899, "משׁיח", "mäshiyªch") is Hebrew for "Anointed", which in transliterated koine Greek is G3323 (Jhn. 1:41) "μεσσιαν", "messian", or "μεσσιας", "messias" (Jhn. 4:25), and in koine Greek is G5547, "χριστος", "christos" or in English, "Christ". Jesus was anointed at His baptism, by the Holy Ghost / Spirit, at the river Jordan, by His Father (Mat. 3:16; Mar. 1:10; Luk. 3:22; Jhn. 1:32 KJB) in AD 27 (exactly 483 years (69 weeks) from 457 BC; the 7th year of Artaxerxes I Longimanus / Machrocheir, see Dan. 8:13-14,26, 9:25; Ezr. 6:14, 7:1-28 KJB). Jesus even says so, citing Isa. 61:1 in Luk. 4:18 (see also Luk. 4:1,14,17) KJB. Jesus also specifically refers to the time prophecies in Daniel:

Mar 1:15 KJB - And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.​

You can read more about the time prophecy, and the Jesus (AD 27 - AD 31) & Stephen (AD 31 - AD 34) parallelism here - ⁠Single Page (Dual Sided) Charts - Prophecy Print Outs : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

You can see a video presentation on Jesus & Stephen parallel here -

The text of Mark 16:20; Hebrews 2:3 KJB is also related:

Heb 2:3 KJB - How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;​

Mar 16:20 KJB - And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.​

When Jesus was refused by the Pharasees, he stated:

​

Mat_23:32 KJB - Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.​

Mat_23:38 KJB - Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.​

Luk_13:35 KJB - Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.​

This refers back to Dan. 9:27 in the last "he", and the "desolate". Once Jesus left the Temple, He would never come back into it. He goes to the mount of Olives (Olivet), and shares with the disciples Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21, in how the Sanhedrin would ultimately reject Him as the Messiah:

Joh_1:11 KJB - He came unto his own, and his own received him not.​

Mat 26:65 KJB - Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.​

Mat 26:66 KJB - What think ye? They answered and said, He [Jesus] is guilty of death.​

The high priest was never allowed to "rent" (rend, tear) his clothes (Exo. 39:23; Lev. 10:6 KJB), as it represented the perfect righteousness of Christ's character, and in so doing, cut himself off from being high priest. Jesus, being rejected by the Sanhedrin and High Priest, was "cut off" (separated from the congregation, no longer a 'member') and was condmned to die, outside of Jerusalem. Since Jesus no longer dwelt in the Temple, no longer in Jerusalem, it was without God's protection. The Jews destroyed themselves by rejecting their only safety (in Jesus), and thus the devil and his followers filled up Jerusalem, and the Romans came to destroy the city & temple because the Jews had rejected their only salvation in Jesus.

Hos_13:9 KJB - O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.​

​

The "משׁמם", "m'shomëm", is singular masculine, as the previous 2 pronouns are, & there is no other mentioned in the previous context of Dan. 9, which is the about Messiah. In His rejection, & in His leaving the Temple, it left it & them (people who rejected) desolate (without form & void, empty), & without His (& thus God's) protection. Jesus said His body was the Temple (Jhn. 2:19-21 KJB), which they would torture and crucify and put to death, and they also polluted the other temple (Jhn. 2:16 KJB):

​

1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

The destruction of Jerusalem & Temple of it was brought about by the rejection of the Messiah by the Jews. A similar pattern, or type in the OT, was similarly accomplished in God's leaving the Temple in the days of Jeremiah / Ezekiel / Daniel (Jer. 19:15 KJB), and just as Jesus left to Mount Olivet in NT, so too in OT: Eze_11:23 And the glory of the LORD went up from the midst of the city, and stood upon the mountain which is on the east side of the city.

Thus, His (God's; Jesus') "servant" (Nebuchadnezzar, Nebuchadrezzar II; Jer. 25:9, 27:6, 43:10 KJB) was allowed by God, to be used as an instrument of punishment, to destroy the Temple and City of Jerusalem. This is why Daniel was studying the typological prophecies of Jeremiah in Dan. 9:2, in the "70 years", and thus God apportioned to restored Temple and restored Jerusalem 70x7 years (490 years; from 457 BC, 7th Year of Artaxerxes I Longimanus / Machrocheir; Dan. 8:13-14,26, 9:24-27; Ezr. 6:14, 7:1-28 KJB), and Jesus makes mention of this in Matthew 18, in regards forgiveness. God had given to the nation of physical Israel, 490 years to accept: Mat 18:22 KJB - Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

The Prophecies of Daniel are contiguous - Daniel 9 Vs 24 70 Weeks Contiguous Consecutive 7 Years : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The people of the Prince (Messiah the Prince) that should come (foretold), were the Jews - Daniel 9 Vs 26 The People Of The Prince That Shall Come : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

... to be continued ...

 

[Adventageous]

It was said Jesus destroyed the temple in 70AD and this is now explained by you that in not protecting the temple he actively destroyed it. That is just an opinion. It remains that the only relationship Christ had to the temple destruction was to prophesize of its destruction

... continued ...

The prophecies of Dan., as the previous link shows, is entirely about the Messiah. Dan. 9 is a massive chiastic (forwards and backwards) prayer by Daniel, about redemption / salvation / restoration from sins. God answered Daniel's prayer far and above what Daniel was personally asking for, in that God answered with the exact timing of the coming of the Messiah, who is the answer to all prayers ever prayed by mankind, and is the answer / fulfillment of Gen. 3:15,21 KJB. Titus (under Vespasian) was a roman (and before him, under the seige of Cestias), and was merely used as an instrument of God, to punish physical Israel who had rejected the Saviour.

Lev_26:31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.​

The "people of the Prince" (its like saying the "people of the Messiah", who is to rule all nations; Rev. 12:5) are the Jews, since the "Prince", in context, as shown, is "Messiah the Prince" (vss 25,26). There are no Romans directly mentioned in all of Dan. 9, though a symbol is given in "flood" (many waters). It is entirely about the Jews / Israelites.

The only other peoples mention Dan. besides the Israelites, are the "Medes" (Dan. 9:1) & "Chaldeans" (Babylonians; Dan. 9:1 KJB) & "countries" (Dan. 9:7 KJB). & "Egypt" (Dan. 9:15 KJB). No other gentiles are listed in any of its context

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.​

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.​

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.​

The word "prince" (נגיד ; נגידH5057; nägiyd) is only used for Jesus Christ the Messiah in all of Dan., see Dan. 9:25,26, 11:22 ("prince of the covenant") as the anointed ruler thereof.

Other examples in scripture of this are seen in the anointed kings of Israel (see 1 Sam. 25:30; 2 Sam. 6:21, 7:8; 1 Kin. 1:35, 14:7, 16:2; 1 Chr. 5:2, 11:2, 17:7, 28:4, 29:22; 2 Chr. 6:5, 11:22), the anointed rulers of the priests (1 Chr. 9:11,20, 12:27; 2 Chr. 31:12,13, 35:8; Jer. 20:1; Neh. 11:11; or those associated, 1 Chr. 26:24, 27:4), the leaders of the tribes of Israel (1 Chr. 27:16), generals/captains over others (1 Chr. 13:1; 2 Chr. 11:11; Psa. 76:12), or as one like Job (Job 31:37). There are a few rare instances in scripture where the word can be used in a general sense for any ruler or captain over others (Job 29:10), even an opposing ruler/s, captains (see 2 Chr. 23:21; Eze. 28:2), but the context is always clear in these instances; and it can mean a few other things in other rare instances (Pro. 8:6).

The words in Daniel's prayer echo down through time:

Dan 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.​

Dan 9:12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.​

Dan 9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.​

Dan 9:14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.​

Thus as the Jews / Israelites had rejected God in the days of Jeremiah / Ezekiel / Daniel, and so God left the Temple, and stood upon the Mount of Olives, in the east, so too the same events repeated (Ecc. 1:9, 3:15 KJB) in the days of the Messiah the Prince (Jesus), when He (Jesus on behalf of the Father) came unto His own (Jews / Israelites), and they rejected Him (Mat. 27:22; Mar. 15:13; Luk. 23:21; Jhn. 19:15,26 KJB).

They were still His people, but in rebellion

Rom_11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.​

Rom_11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,​

They still had opportunity to accept the Messiah, not as a nation (which probation was closed in their rejection, in AD 34, with one final generation of children, 40 years unto AD 70), but as individuals, as the disciples would do.

​

Hos_13:9 KJB - O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.​

... to be continued ...

 

[Adventageous]

It was said Jesus destroyed the temple in 70AD and this is now explained by you that in not protecting the temple he actively destroyed it. That is just an opinion. It remains that the only relationship Christ had to the temple destruction was to prophesize of its destruction

... continued ...

There is no question that Titus was used of God to level the city and Temple, though if one reads Josephus, Titus actually wanted to preserve the Temple itself. He did not want it destroyed. It was overzealous soldiers that threw in a firebrand, etc., in all the excitement. Titus is not an anointed. The soldiers under him, were not "his people", as they technically belonged to the Emperor, Vespasian (at the time), and were not a single nation, but a hodgepodge of gentiles.

The Messiah/Christ/Anointed was Jesus. His people were the Israelites, a single nation. He (singular masculine) was the one foretold to come in Daniel 9, &c. The context of "the people of the prince to come" is, and can only be, the Messiah the prince, and His peoples. In rejecting Him, in rebellion, they destroyed themselves, as their only means of protection left them, and so their house (Temple) was left to them "desolate". No Romans were involved in that. They did it to themselves as Hosea says.

Type (History) and Antitype (at the present time then) there is a perfect match. You do not have to rely upon me, or this other person, or commentaries. Go through each word in the text of Daniel 9, and follow them throughout the Bible. God will lead you into all truth, if you desire to know which, if any, are correct. I understand why people say "Titus", but it does not fit the context of Dan. 9. I am not going to be harsh with those who say "Titus", but I will have several questions for them based on what is already presented here. Whether they accept or not, is up to them. By saying "Titus" it does remove the focus from the Messiah the prince, to a person not even mentioned in scripture, and from Israelites, to Romans.

In Dan. 8, the "little horn" is not called a "prince" (H5057, "נגיד", "nägiyd", see also H5046, "נָגַד", "nâgad"), nor anywhere in Daniel, and the word is only associated in all of Daniel, with the H4899 "משׁיח", "mäshiyªch", "Messiah" and H1285 "ברית׃", "B'riyt", "covenant" (Dan. 9:25,26, 11:22). Even the word "prince" itself in Hebrew, relates to one who leads in announcing, as 'a messenger', or revealer, explainer, speaker, &c (see KJC, or Strong's etc uses in scripture). The same Hebrew word for "covenant" is used in Dan. 9:4,27, 11:22,28,30,32, and in each instance, it only refers to the covenant of God with His peoples.

Please also keep in mind, that Daniel 8 (Third year of the reign of King Belshazzar) was written years before Daniel 9 (the First year of Darius the Mede; aka Cyaxares II), and thus a "pronoun" (singular masculine) in Daniel 9 would not refer back to a noun (H7161, "הקרן", "qeren", "horn"; Dan. 8:9, which is a noun-feminine singular, not a masculine - Daniel 8:9 Interlinear: And from the one of them come forth hath a little horn, and it exerteth itself greatly toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the beauteous land; ) in a chapter (8) written years prior, but would only properly be understood in the immediate context of the nouns available in Daniel 9 itself in the surrounding local context; which is "Messiah the Prince" (vs 25), "Messiah ... the prince" (vs 26).

As I have said, people generally only "see" "Titus", "Romans" and "Little Horn" in Dan. 9's, statement "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" because they have heard / seen it first taught elsewhere, and not directly from scripture. I have never read / studied scripture and come to the conclusion that they have. I have read most known commentaries on the subject, and some older that you have probably never even heard of (not that I want to assume anything, but based upon your present responses, I make a logical conclusion at the moment). So I understand the sentiment, and the reasons why, but their reasoning falls short of the evidence internal to the text itself, in what it plainly says.

Yes, the Messiah would come in the time of the "little horn" (Dan. 8:9,23a "fierce countenance" or pagan Rome), but the focus is on the Messiah, "the Great Prince" (Dan. 12:1) & His covenant peoples, not the Romans. Everytime the word "people" appears in Dan. 9, it is a reference only to God's covenanted peoples, see Dan. 9:6,15,16,19,20,24 & 26, and it continues into Dan. 10:14.

Upon looking at the ending phrase of Dan. 9:26, "and the end thereof shall be with a flood", that is a reference to armies surrounding. Waters in scripture, are as the rushing of the nations, that came up to Jerusalem (a city set on a hill / mountain), as a mountain (set to fire, alighted), carried into the midst of the seas (see Rev. 8:8) : 2 Sam. 22:5; Psa. 18:3-4, 32:6, 65:7, 89:9-10, 93:3-4, 98:7-9, 124:1-5; Son. 8:7; Isa. 8:7, 17:12-13, 28:2, 59:19; Jer. 46:8, 47:2, 51:13; Eze. 31:15; Dan. 9:26, 11:22; Amo. 8:8, 9:5; Mat. 7:25,27; Jud. 1:13; Rev. 17:1,15 KJB Thus, as Dan. 9:26 shows, the Messiah came to His covenanted people (the people of the Prince that should come, aka Israelites & Messiah), and they rejected Him, and in so doing "destroy" themselves, which allowed the Romans (the flood) to surround the city and 'drown' it, as the Roman armies 'washed' up over all its hillside and enbankments, casting down the stones thereof down, as a tidal wave.

 

[Doug]

We already went through this. Prophecies do not state specific dates. When I say that God destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, it is a summary of what happened, not a quotation.

You simply need to put 1 and 1 together.

You are presenting a strawman argument in saying I said 70AD should be stated in prophecy. I never said or implied that
The date has absolutely no bearing on saying that Jesus destroyed the temple. The date is used outside scripture to identify which destroyed temple is being discussed

You have been unable to show scripture to prove your assertion. Please just give me the scripture that supports this

 

[Adventageous]

You are presenting a strawman argument in saying I said 70AD should be stated in prophecy. I never said or implied that
The date has absolutely no bearing on saying that Jesus destroyed the temple. The date is used outside scripture to identify which destroyed temple is being discussed

You have been unable to show scripture to prove your assertion. Please just give me the scripture that supports this

Well, since prophetically the middle of the 69th week of Daniel's 70th week terminated in AD 31, at Calvary (having begun 457 BC, 7th year of Artaxerxes I Longimanus / Machrocheir, Ezr. 6:14, 7:1-28; Dan. 9:25; &c.) and Jesus stated that within that "generation" all those things would be fulfilled, and once passed from adult to the children, and their refusal, only thus within 40 years, or as scripture states 39 years (40-1) the length of judgment (just as 39 OT books), AD 31 to AD 70 is 39 years, within that 40 years or final generation.