IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE TO KEEP THE SABBATH THEN CONSIDER THIS

[FaithWillDo]

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Faith is believing God.

Yes, faith comes by hearing the Word but the individual must have at least a small measure of the Holy Spirit (Early Rain) for faith to develop within them. Faith is a gift from God and it accompanies the gift of the Holy Spirit.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

"Faith" is one of the "things of the Spirit of God". Without Christ first giving a person the Spirit, they will never have faith in Him or truthfully call Jesus "Lord".

Because faith is a gift from God, it is not a work of man. When Christ is ready to save a person, He will freely give them everything they need to be saved (converted). The individual has no works of their own to contribute. This is the true Gospel of Christ. And because Christ loves all mankind, He will eventually come to every person who has ever lived and give them His free gifts.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast (Feast of Ingathering/Tabernacles), Jesus stood and cried, saying, if any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

The same event is repeated here:

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The above scriptures are physical types that foreshadow what Christ will do at the end of the final age. At that time, all mankind will have already been given the Early Rain of the Spirit. With that small measure of the Spirit, they will all respond to Christ and His Bride's (the Elect) call and will freely drink of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain/baptism). This will be their moment of conversion and salvation.

This scripture below will then be testified to be true:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Has Christ given you enough faith to believe what God said above?

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

There is no scripture to support this. I am sincere, I am not being judgmental, I am not going to mock you. I just want to know if you have been taught this from someone.

Here are the tenants of the new covenant:
[Jeremiah 31:31 KJV] "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"..........It's only made with the house of Israel
[Ezekiel 36:24 KJV] "For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land."............it will be when Israel is in the land
[Jeremiah 31:32 KJV] "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:".............the new covenant is not the old covenant which Israel couldnt keep
[Ezekiel 36:27 KJV] "And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]."............God will put his spirit in Israel to do the statutes found in the old covenant, the statutes Israel failed to keep.

Dear Doug,
I have not been taught this concept by anyone except Christ. The Sabbath Day law is part of the whole law of God. The whole Law of God must be followed whether a person is a Jew or Gentile.

Christ even said that He came to fulfill the law of God (not just some of it):

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

When Christ enters into a person (converts them), He will fulfill the whole law for them, too. That is why a converted believer is no longer under the Law - Christ has fulfilled it for them.

Likewise, the Sabbath Day law is fulfilled for a person when they are converted. Paul equates that has having entered into the rest of Christ..

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works (24/7), as God did from his (on the 7th day/what the Sabbath Day was founded upon).

The "rest" of Christ is the spiritual fulfillment of the natural Sabbath Day law.

1Cor 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural (observing one day of rest per week); and afterward that which is spiritual (the rest of Christ).

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

You are redefining the sabbath. Either you keep the sabbath according to God's word as commanded in Exodus 20 or you revise it to say you do.

Doug,
You are only understanding the NATURAL fulfillment of the Sabbath Day law. Christ spiritually fulfills the Sabbath Day law within us upon our conversion. First comes the natural (the law written on tablets of stone/outwardly observed), then comes the spiritual (written in our hearts/spiritually observed).

This concept is critical in understanding the work that Christ is presently doing under the New Covenant - and this work is spiritual work.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

[Ephesians 2:8 KJV] "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:"............Being saved by grace is the gift that's not of ourselves. Praise God for his grace!

Dear Doug,
You are reading the verse wrong. Faith is the gift that puts a person under God's grace. The verse says "grace through faith". We must have faith or we can't have grace. Paul says that our faith is "not of yourselves" because it came from God as a free gift.

Here is where faith comes from:

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

The phrase "every man" is referring back to earlier in the verse when it says "every man that is among you". Those men who were given a measure of faith are believers (babes). If the phrase "every man" meant "all mankind", then why doesn't all mankind have faith in Christ?

Below is another verse that talks about when a "babe" (who only has the Early Rain) will have their measure of faith increased.

2Cor 10:15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,

A babe's faith is increased when they receive the Latter Rain (the baptism of the Holy Spirit). Why? Because the Latter Rain heals a babe's spiritual blindness so that the truth of Christ's New Covenant teachings will clearly open up to their understanding. Paul typed this event when the scales fell from his eyes in Damascus. Only then was Paul able to "eat meat" (learn truth). As a result of his consuming truth, Paul's faith was increased.

Faith is the gift and it is what qualifies a person for God's grace. Since no man can have faith without the Holy Spirit, Christ will give each person of mankind the free gift of the Holy Spirit. Then, when they hear the Gospel, they will have the faith that they need to open up God's grace (manifested in Christ) to them. When Christ comes, He brings salvation (conversion).

Joe

 

[shepherdsword]

Dear Doug,
You are reading the verse wrong. Faith is the gift that puts a person under God's grace. The verse says "grace through faith". We must have faith or we can't have grace. Paul says that our faith is "not of yourselves" because it came from God as a free gift.

Here is where faith comes from:

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

The phrase "every man" is referring back to earlier in the verse when it says "every man that is among you". Those men who were given a measure of faith are believers (babes). If the phrase "every man" meant "all mankind", then why doesn't all mankind have faith in Christ?

Below is another verse that talks about when a "babe" (who only has the Early Rain) will have their measure of faith increased.

2Cor 10:15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,

A babe's faith is increased when they receive the Latter Rain (the baptism of the Holy Spirit). Why? Because the Latter Rain heals a babe's spiritual blindness so that the truth of Christ's New Covenant teachings will clearly open up to their understanding. Paul typed this event when the scales fell from his eyes in Damascus. Only then was Paul able to "eat meat" (learn truth). As a result of his consuming truth, Paul's faith was increased.

Faith is the gift and it is what qualifies a person for God's grace. Since no man can have faith without the Holy Spirit, Christ will give each person of mankind the free gift of the Holy Spirit. Then, when they hear the Gospel, they will have the faith that they need to open up God's grace (manifested in Christ) to them. When Christ comes, He brings salvation (conversion).

Joe

Do you eat cheeseburgers? The prohibition appears three times in the Torah (Exodus 23:19, 34:26, and Deuteronomy 14:21). Do you wear a coat made of cotton and wool? The law against mixed fabrics, known in Jewish law as sha'atnez, is a biblical prohibition (Leviticus 19:19, Deuteronomy 22:11). How about your garden? Do you grow tomatoes and other things together? There is a biblical law against mixing seeds, or Kil'ayim, is found in Leviticus 19:19 and Deuteronomy 22:9, forbidding the sowing of two different kinds of seeds together,

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

[Soyeong]

Paul supports my statement here:

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The Old Covenant of Law was given to the Nation of Israel to be their schoolmaster to lead them to Christ.

Someone who disregarded everything that their schoolmaster taught them after they graduated would be missing the whole point of a schoolmaster. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus by teaching us to walk in His way, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3). In other words, goal of God's Word is to lead us to God's Word made flesh because he is the embodiment of it, but it does not lead us to him so that we can then reject everything that he is and go back to being doers of what it reveals to be wickedness. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of God was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which is in accordance with Jesus being sent as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26).

The Old Covenant stipulated that as long as the nation obeyed God's law, they would be acceptable to Him. However, the Nation of Israel had no ability to be obedient to God because they were spiritually marred.

Again, nowhere does nowhere does the Bible say that, but rather it states the opposite. In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of God is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! Moreover, there are many example of people in the Bible who did keep the law, such as with those in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14.

The temple sacrifices were put in place to put a temporary covering over their sins. Christ came to be the permanent sacrifice. In this way, Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant of Law.

In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it and he warned against relaxing the least part of it, so you should not interpret Jesus fulfilling the law is meaning no, he actually came to abolish or relax parts of it.

But since Christ's sacrifice on the cross did nothing to stop mankind's sinful ways, Christ introduced a new covenant. In that new covenant, Christ will do all the work of making mankind obedient to the laws of God. He does this by spiritually changing mankind by giving each person the free gift of the Holy Spirit. With the Holy Spirit, mankind will be governed by the Spirit and will cease sinning. So yes, the Law of God is not too difficult to obey because Jesus Christ has come and given us the Spirit which causes us to "will and to do". After a person is converted, they will enter into the rest of Christ and will be obeying the Sabbath day law.

Entering God's rest does not involve rejecting God's instructions for how to enter into His rest It does not mean that we should no longer obey God's command to keep the 7th day holy, or to refrain from committing murder, idolatry, adultery, theft, rape, favoritism, kidnapping, or set aside any of God's other commands.

Scriptural repentance is a repentance from works. The other side of that coin is faith. The Old Covenant is works based. The New Covenant is based on faith in Christ to do all the works of making us righteous before God. After a person has been converted, they will be governed by the Spirit and will eventually stop sinning once they have matured to a "man of full age". At that time, the person be like Christ and will have perfect obedience. Their obedience comes from the Spirit and not from themselves. That spiritual change is mankind's salvation.

Scripture never calls us to repent from our obedience to the Law of God, but rather it consistently calls for us to repent from our sin, which is our transgressions of the Law of God. We can't be made righteous before God even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God because it was never given as a way of making us righteous in the first place (Romans 4:1-5), so the position that Christ does all the works of making us righteous before God is a fundamental misunderstanding of how we are made righteous. The concept of faith is not foreign to the OT and it is a fundamental misunderstanding of faith to create that false dichotomy.

The Bible frequently connects our faith in God with our obedience to Him, such as with James 2:17-18 saying that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith through his works. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law of God. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds the Law of God. In John 3:16-21, it connect our belief in the Son with our obedience. In Psalm 119:29-30, he chose the way of faith by setting the Law of God before him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of works, so in the OT had faith just as people in the NT do. In Hebrews 3:18-19, it equates unbelief with disobedience. In Numbers 5:6, it describes breaking the Law of God as breaking faith. And so forth.

You are missing the point I was making. Yes, we are to follow the commandments of God. The Old Covenant is based upon mankind's own ability to follow the Law and the New Covenant is based upon Christ's ability to follow the Law. After a person is converted, Christ will live within them via the Holy Spirit and cause them to "will and to do". This will cause the person to rest from their own works because Christ within them is now doing all the works. When this change occurs within a person, the Sabbath Day law is then spiritually fulfilled within the person. They will then rest 24/7 from their works.

The Law of God was never given as something to be obeyed on our own apart from Christ. Our own works would be works that we do on our own that are completely independent of anything that God has instructed. It is contradictory to think that we can rely on ourselves by relying on God's instructions.

A physical rest from work one day a week is no longer necessary.

That is not stated anywhere in the Bible, but rather it is contrary to it. The reason why Israelites did not under into God's rest is because they were not keeping the 7th day holy, it doesn't work for you to try to use entering into God's rest in order to justify the same disobedience that prevented the Israelites from entering God's rest.

Consider this scripture again:

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works (24/7), as God did from his (on the 7th day).

The Sabbath Day is based upon God resting on the seventh day after the six days of His creation work. Paul equates that same day with entering into the rest of Christ. This spiritual change within a person fulfills the physical observance of the Sabbath Day law.

Joe

Again, in Hebrews 4:9-11, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, we should rest form our work as God rested from his, and we should be careful to enter into God's rest so that no one might fall away by the same sort of disobedience, so we should continue to keep the 7th day holy in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow. We can't enter into God's rest instead of following God's instructions for how to do that.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Hey Joe
I am having trouble here. Here you say we must keep the law and then here you say When Christ enters into a person (converts them), He will fulfill the whole law for them, too. That is why a converted believer is no longer under the Law - Christ has fulfilled it for them.
Do you follow the whole law?

Dear Doug,
Yes, I follow the whole law because Christ within me follows it. Let me explain this statement, otherwise you will not understand what it really means.

Christ fulfilled all the Law. The portion of the law that requires a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins was fulfilled by Christ at the cross. He accomplished this work under the Old Covenant. This final sacrifice ended all the sacrificial ordinances of the Old Covenant (and there are many). The remaining portion of the law is satisfied when we love God and love our neighbors. And that is fulfilled when Christ lives within a person after they are converted. With Christ reigning from within the person, they will spiritually grow to love for God and love their neighbor - and Christ is the one who causes that growth to happen by His continual feeding of truth and His chastisements. After the child of God has grown into a "man of full age", they will be like Christ and will only walk by faith and by the Spirit. This is our salvation. This growth process can take many years and is different for each converted believer. Some don't make it to the final level of maturity before they die but some do. This is why some of the Elect will be "least in the Kingdom of Heaven" and why some will be the greatest. But they are all saved and they will all reign with Christ as His bride in the final age.

As for the Sabbath Day law, it is satisfied because converted believers have rested from their works - their works of trying to live perfectly under the Law by their own efforts. True repentance is a repentance from these works.

Below, I'll explain the difference between the Old and New Covenants.

The "works of man" is what the Old Covenant is founded upon. The Law that was given at that time is not the Old Covenant. It is the eternal law of God that never changes. It applies to all mankind. It was given with the Old Covenant to show the standard that a person must live up to in order to be acceptable to God. As the Nation of Israel proved, it cannot be done.

The New Covenant was then given to the Nation of Israel so that they can be made truly acceptable to God (later given to the Gentiles). Unlike the Old Covenant, the New Covenant is SOLELY founded upon the works of Christ. The individual has no works of their own to perform. For example, when a person makes a confession of faith or is baptized in water, it is Christ within them who is causing it to happen. He is the one who causes the person to "will and to do" (Phi 2:13). The individual cannot take credit for it. When they do, they are stealing from Christ and are showing their lack of faith (lack of trusting Him to do all that is necessary to save them).

The difference between the Old and New Covenant is a stumbling block for babes. Satan uses this difference to deceive them. This is what caused the apostasy of the church near the end of the 1st century. The false gospel that Satan uses says that a babe must add their own works to the works of Christ to be saved. The Doctrine of Free Will is the foundational lie that Satan uses. But the truth is, no man can come to Christ and have faith until Christ comes to them and freely gives them the Holy Spirit. Christ gives a person this gift without their permission and without their asking for it. Paul's receipt of the Early Rain on the Damascus Road is a physical "type" that teaches this truth. If Christ had not come to Paul and given him the Early Rain, Paul would have continued to reject Christ and to persecute Christians until he died. Paul could not have done anything different.

For anyone to call Jesus Lord as Paul did on the Damascus Road, they must experience what Paul did - and that is for Christ to come to them and give them the Early Rain. Without the Early Rain (small measure of the Holy Spirit), no one can call Jesus "Lord".

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

The rest in Hebrews is equated to the sabbath day rest, however 1 Cot 15:46 isn't. This verse is speaking about our resurrected bodies.............[1 Corinthians 15:35 KJV] "But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"
[1 Corinthians 15:44 KJV] "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

Dear Doug,
The phrase "first comes the natural, then comes the spiritual" is a CONCEPT that applies to many things.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (converted believers). 10 For concept must be upon concept, concept upon concept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (unconverted babes/Early Rain only) concept upon concept, concept upon concept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

In 1Cor 15:46, Paul merely applied that concept to the natural body and the spiritual body.

The concept also applies to the Old and New Covenant. The Old covenant is the natural and the New Covenant is the spiritual. The same thing also applies with the Sabbath Day law; the natural is resting one day a week, the spiritual is resting in Christ where he does all the work.

The law written on tablets of stone is the natural. The law written in our hearts is the spiritual.

The carnal mind is the natural, the mind of Christ is the spiritual.

Physical circumcision is the physical, circumcision of the heart is the spiritual.

All the physical types uses in scripture are the natural. Their spiritual fulfillment under the New Covenant is the spiritual.

Here is an example: Noah's ark is the physical and represents Christ who keep us safe during our time of judgment. The conversion of a person when Christ lives within them is the spiritual fulfillment. After Christ enters a person, the old man is judged and destroyed (those outside the ark) - but the new man (those within the ark/Christ) will live. This is conversion and it requires spiritual judgment.

The verse below is talking about spiritual judgment which happens during conversion:

Isa 66:16 For by fire (judgment) and by his sword (Word of God) will the LORD plead with all flesh (all mankind): and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

When this verse above is properly understood, it is actually saying that Christ will save all mankind through His judgment. The old vessel is destroyed and the new vessel is made:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

A person cannot be "born again" unless they die (their old man/old vessel that is).

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Are you saying that we have the new covenant? Did you understand what I said about the new covenant in an earlier post?

Dear Doug,
Yes, I understood.

The Old Covenant has been abolished but not the Law though - it is eternal. The only way to be acceptable to God now is under the New Covenant. Under the New Covenant, Christ will cause us to obey the Law.

You have equated the Law of God as being the Old Covenant. It is not. The Law of God is the standard that the Old Covenant used to show that the Nation of Israel could not follow the Law from their own abilities (works).

To be acceptable to God, we must obey the Law - and under the New Covenant, Christ from within us will see to it that we do. That is His work to perform, not ours.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

One final point; when scripture says that a believer is no longer under Law, it only means that they are no longer under the condemnation of the Law because of their sins. Christ within us takes away our condemnation.

This verse applies though:

John 3:18 He (the new man/child of God) that believeth on him is not condemned: but he (old man/child of the devil) that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Both the old man who cannot believe and the new man who does believe are both contained within one person. The judgment portion of conversion will destroy the old and allow the new to live. Stated again; during a person's conversion process, the old man/child of the devil is judged and destroyed. However, the new man/child of God is protected in the ark and will live on into eternity.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Do you eat cheeseburgers? The prohibition appears three times in the Torah (Exodus 23:19, 34:26, and Deuteronomy 14:21). Do you wear a coat made of cotton and wool? The law against mixed fabrics, known in Jewish law as sha'atnez, is a biblical prohibition (Leviticus 19:19, Deuteronomy 22:11). How about your garden? Do you grow tomatoes and other things together? There is a biblical law against mixing seeds, or Kil'ayim, is found in Leviticus 19:19 and Deuteronomy 22:9, forbidding the sowing of two different kinds of seeds together,

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Dear shepherdsword,
Please read my responses to Doug.
Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Someone who disregarded everything that their schoolmaster taught them after they graduated would be missing the whole point of a schoolmaster. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus by teaching us to walk in His way, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3). In other words, goal of God's Word is to lead us to God's Word made flesh because he is the embodiment of it, but it does not lead us to him so that we can then reject everything that he is and go back to being doers of what it reveals to be wickedness. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of God was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which is in accordance with Jesus being sent as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26).


Again, nowhere does nowhere does the Bible say that, but rather it states the opposite. In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of God is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! Moreover, there are many example of people in the Bible who did keep the law, such as with those in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14.


In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it and he warned against relaxing the least part of it, so you should not interpret Jesus fulfilling the law is meaning no, he actually came to abolish or relax parts of it.


Entering God's rest does not involve rejecting God's instructions for how to enter into His rest It does not mean that we should no longer obey God's command to keep the 7th day holy, or to refrain from committing murder, idolatry, adultery, theft, rape, favoritism, kidnapping, or set aside any of God's other commands.


Scripture never calls us to repent from our obedience to the Law of God, but rather it consistently calls for us to repent from our sin, which is our transgressions of the Law of God. We can't be made righteous before God even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God because it was never given as a way of making us righteous in the first place (Romans 4:1-5), so the position that Christ does all the works of making us righteous before God is a fundamental misunderstanding of how we are made righteous. The concept of faith is not foreign to the OT and it is a fundamental misunderstanding of faith to create that false dichotomy.

The Bible frequently connects our faith in God with our obedience to Him, such as with James 2:17-18 saying that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith through his works. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law of God. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds the Law of God. In John 3:16-21, it connect our belief in the Son with our obedience. In Psalm 119:29-30, he chose the way of faith by setting the Law of God before him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of works, so in the OT had faith just as people in the NT do. In Hebrews 3:18-19, it equates unbelief with disobedience. In Numbers 5:6, it describes breaking the Law of God as breaking faith. And so forth.


The Law of God was never given as something to be obeyed on our own apart from Christ. Our own works would be works that we do on our own that are completely independent of anything that God has instructed. It is contradictory to think that we can rely on ourselves by relying on God's instructions.


That is not stated anywhere in the Bible, but rather it is contrary to it. The reason why Israelites did not under into God's rest is because they were not keeping the 7th day holy, it doesn't work for you to try to use entering into God's rest in order to justify the same disobedience that prevented the Israelites from entering God's rest.


Again, in Hebrews 4:9-11, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, we should rest form our work as God rested from his, and we should be careful to enter into God's rest so that no one might fall away by the same sort of disobedience, so we should continue to keep the 7th day holy in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow. We can't enter into God's rest instead of following God's instructions for how to do that.

Dear Soyeong,
What I just stated to Doug in my last three posts to him should answer most of your comments. If you can't accept what I stated, there isn't much more that I could say to help you.
Joe

 

[Soyeong]

Dear Doug,
Yes, I follow the whole law because Christ within me follows it. Let me explain this statement, otherwise you will not understand what it really means.

Christ fulfilled all the Law. The portion of the law that requires a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins was fulfilled by Christ at the cross. He accomplished this work under the Old Covenant. This final sacrifice ended all the sacrificial ordinances of the Old Covenant (and there are many). The remaining portion of the law is satisfied when we love God and love our neighbors. And that is fulfilled when Christ lives within a person after they are converted. With Christ reigning from within the person, they will spiritually grow to love for God and love their neighbor - and Christ is the one who causes that growth to happen by His continual feeding of truth and His chastisements. After the child of God has grown into a "man of full age", they will be like Christ and will only walk by faith and by the Spirit. This is our salvation. This growth process can take many years and is different for each converted believer. Some don't make it to the final level of maturity before they die but some do. This is why some of the Elect will be "least in the Kingdom of Heaven" and why some will be the greatest. But they are all saved and they will all reign with Christ as His bride in the final age.

As for the Sabbath Day law, it is satisfied because converted believers have rested from their works - their works of trying to live perfectly under the Law by their own efforts. True repentance is a repentance from these works.

Below, I'll explain the difference between the Old and New Covenants.

The "works of man" is what the Old Covenant is founded upon. The Law that was given at that time is not the Old Covenant. It is the eternal law of God that never changes. It applies to all mankind. It was given with the Old Covenant to show the standard that a person must live up to in order to be acceptable to God. As the Nation of Israel proved, it cannot be done.

The New Covenant was then given to the Nation of Israel so that they can be made truly acceptable to God (later given to the Gentiles). Unlike the Old Covenant, the New Covenant is SOLELY founded upon the works of Christ. The individual has no works of their own to perform. For example, when a person makes a confession of faith or is baptized in water, it is Christ within them who is causing it to happen. He is the one who causes the person to "will and to do" (Phi 2:13). The individual cannot take credit for it. When they do, they are stealing from Christ and are showing their lack of faith (lack of trusting Him to do all that is necessary to save them).

The difference between the Old and New Covenant is a stumbling block for babes. Satan uses this difference to deceive them. This is what caused the apostasy of the church near the end of the 1st century. The false gospel that Satan uses says that a babe must add their own works to the works of Christ to be saved. The Doctrine of Free Will is the foundational lie that Satan uses. But the truth is, no man can come to Christ and have faith until Christ comes to them and freely gives them the Holy Spirit. Christ gives a person this gift without their permission and without their asking for it. Paul's receipt of the Early Rain on the Damascus Road is a physical "type" that teaches this truth. If Christ had not come to Paul and given him the Early Rain, Paul would have continued to reject Christ and to persecute Christians until he died. Paul could not have done anything different.

For anyone to call Jesus Lord as Paul did on the Damascus Road, they must experience what Paul did - and that is for Christ to come to them and give them the Early Rain. Without the Early Rain (small measure of the Holy Spirit), no one can call Jesus "Lord".

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Joe

In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it and he warned against relaxing the least part of it, so you should not interpret fulfilling the law as meaning the same thing as abolishing it or as relaxing even the least part of it. If you retroactively insert the cross back into Matthew 5 in spite of Jesus making no allusion to the cross anywhere in that passage, then you are interpreting Jesus as if he had no intention for his audience to understand what he meant. Rather, Jesus did not invent the concept of fulfilling the law, so we should seek to understand what he mean by it in the context of what it meant in Judaism before he said that he came to fulfill it, which would be what he intended his audience to understand. "To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will (as made known by the law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo), so Jesus proceeded to fulfill the law throughout the rest on the chapter by correcting what the people had heard being said and by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended.

According to Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the enter law, so again it refers to correctly obeying it, moreover, it refers to something that countless people have done and should continue to do in perpetuity, not to something unique that Christ did through the cross in order to abolish or relax parts of it. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfill the Law of Christ, yet you do not consistently interpret that as meaning that as ending the Law of Christ. The Law of God is not something that is once and done such that if we love our neighbor once, then we have fulfilled our obligation to the law and no longer need to love our neighbor, but rather we need to keep following Christ's example of fulfilling it. If someone stops their car at a red light, then they have correct fulfilled their obligation to obey that traffic law, but it does not mean that their obligation to stop at red lights has been ended.

The Law of God did not require us to have perfect obedience in the first place, so we do not need to rest from those works. The Law of God was never given as a standard that we need to live up to in order to be acceptable to God. It is contradictory to take the position that the Law of God never changes and the position that parts of it have ended. The Israelites went through redemption cycles of turning away from God and returning to him, so they proved over and over that they could keep it and there are many examples in the Bible of them keeping it. The Bible never calls for us to repent from our obedience to God, but consistently calls for us to repent from our sin in transgression of it. The Mosaic Covenant also did not have any works of our own to perform, but rather everything in it are works of God. Satan does not have the role of deceiving people into obeying God, but just the opposite. Obeying the Law of God has nothing to do with trying to add our works to the works of Christ in order to become saved.

 

[FaithWillDo]

In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it and he warned against relaxing the least part of it, so you should not interpret fulfilling the law as meaning the same thing as abolishing it or as relaxing even the least part of it. If you retroactively insert the cross back into Matthew 5 in spite of Jesus making no allusion to the cross anywhere in that passage, then you are interpreting Jesus as if he had no intention for his audience to understand what he meant. Rather, Jesus did not invent the concept of fulfilling the law, so we should seek to understand what he mean by it in the context of what it meant in Judaism before he said that he came to fulfill it, which would be what he intended his audience to understand. "To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will (as made known by the law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo), so Jesus proceeded to fulfill the law throughout the rest on the chapter by correcting what the people had heard being said and by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended.

According to Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the enter law, so again it refers to correctly obeying it, moreover, it refers to something that countless people have done and should continue to do in perpetuity, not to something unique that Christ did through the cross in order to abolish or relax parts of it. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfill the Law of Christ, yet you do not consistently interpret that as meaning that as ending the Law of Christ. The Law of God is not something that is once and done such that if we love our neighbor once, then we have fulfilled our obligation to the law and no longer need to love our neighbor, but rather we need to keep following Christ's example of fulfilling it. If someone stops their car at a red light, then they have correct fulfilled their obligation to obey that traffic law, but it does not mean that their obligation to stop at red lights has been ended.

The Law of God did not require us to have perfect obedience in the first place, so we do not need to rest from those works. The Law of God was never given as a standard that we need to live up to in order to be acceptable to God. It is contradictory to take the position that the Law of God never changes and the position that parts of it have ended. The Israelites went through redemption cycles of turning away from God and returning to him, so they proved over and over that they could keep it and there are many examples in the Bible of them keeping it. The Bible never calls for us to repent from our obedience to God, but consistently calls for us to repent from our sin in transgression of it. The Mosaic Covenant also did not have any works of our own to perform, but rather everything in it are works of God. Satan does not have the role of deceiving people into obeying God, but just the opposite. Obeying the Law of God has nothing to do with trying to add our works to the works of Christ in order to become saved.

Dear soyeong,

I will respond to a couple of your statements.

You said:
In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it and he warned against relaxing the least part of it, so you should not interpret fulfilling the law as meaning the same thing as abolishing it or as relaxing even the least part of it.

I have never said that the law was abolished or that some of it was relaxed. None of the law has been abolished. And since it is not abolished, it must be fulfilled. And since mankind cannot fulfill the law, Christ came to do it for us.

When Christ enters a person and converts them, 100% of the law is fulfilled for them, too. They do not need to perform any of the purification or sacrificial ordinances any longer. They do not need to be circumcised, they do not need to physically obverse one day of rest per week, they do not need to slay a lamb on Passover, they do not need to avoid pork products, etc. etc. Christ fulfilled all those laws/ordinances so they do not need to be performed any longer by a converted person. And since Christ is now spiritually governing the converted person (causing them to will and to do), the newly born child of God will naturally love God and their neighbor. That spiritual change will produce outward effects that comply with the law and produce good works.

Here is what Paul said about believing that some of the laws/ordinances were not fulfilled by Christ and that they must still be physically performed by a believer:

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Paul uses the example of circumcision in the above passage. However, he could have just as easily used the example of honoring the Sabbath Day by physically resting one day a week. Both physical acts were fulfilled by Christ and are no longer are necessary to be performed by a New Covenant believer. Paul even says that if a believer thinks that they still need to do even just one physical act to be acceptable to God, then that believer is still under the Old Covenant of Law and must then follow all the Old Covenant laws & ordinances. Why is this true? Because the belief that Christ didn't fulfill the entire law violates the person's repentance from works and shows a lack of faith. And without faith, the person is no longer under grace. Their sins will remain.

You said:
The Law of God did not require us to have perfect obedience in the first place, so we do not need to rest from those works.

Even just one sin will cause a person to be under the condemnation of the law. So yes, God does require us to have perfect obedience to the law. Christ had perfect obedience to the law and after Christ's work under the New Covenant is complete, all mankind will also have perfect obedience to the law. But since all mankind sins, Christ needed to become a perfect blood sacrifice in order for a person's sins to be forgiven. And because of Christ's sacrifice, all the sins that a person will ever commit will be forgiven by God. To have access to that forgiveness, God requires a person to have faith in Christ. It is that faith that makes Christ's pathway straight for Him to come to them and convert them. Then, after the newly born child of God has spiritually matured so that they only walk by faith and by the Spirit, the person will never sin again. They will then be exactly like Christ. This is our salvation.
.
As I said earlier, Christ fulfilled all of the law. Because of such, we have no works to perform in order to be acceptable to Christ. We are acceptable because we trust Christ to do all the works for us and from within us. He is the Savior and will do all that is necessary to save us. And since Christ performs all the works and fulfills all the law, a converted believer will cease from their own works. The spiritual rest that Christ provides for us is what the physical Sabbath Day law foreshadowed would come.

Joe

 

[Soyeong]

I have never said that the law was abolished or that some of it was relaxed. None of the law has been abolished. And since it is not abolished, it must be fulfilled. And since mankind cannot fulfill the law, Christ came to do it for us.

While you didn't say that it has been abolished, you are interpreting fulfilling the law as meaning the same thing as abolishing or relaxing it. If we no longer need to follow parts of the Law of God, then it has been abolished. Nowhere does the Bible say that mankind cannot fulfill the law or that Christ came to fulfill it for us, but just the opposite. According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law. In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing it for us, so if Jesus had come to fulfill it for us instead of graciously teaching us to fulfill it, then he would have been removing our gift of salvation from us, so thankfully he did not do that.

When Christ enters a person and converts them, 100% of the law is fulfilled for them, too. They do not need to perform any of the purification or sacrificial ordinances any longer. They do not need to be circumcised, they do not need to physically obverse one day of rest per week, they do not need to slay a lamb on Passover, they do not need to avoid pork products, etc. etc. Christ fulfilled all those laws/ordinances so they do not need to be performed any longer by a converted person. And since Christ is now spiritually governing the converted person (causing them to will and to do), the newly born child of God will naturally love God and their neighbor. That spiritual change will produce outward effects that comply with the law and produce good works.

Again, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it and he warned that those who relax the least part of it or teach other to relax the least part of it will be called least in the Kingdom, so you should not interpret fulfilling the law as meaning the same thing as abolishing it or as relaxing even the least part of it. Unless it is your goal to be the least in the Kingdom, then you should repent from teaching that we no longer anger need to obey parts of it. Nowhere does the Bible state that Jesus fulfilling the law means that we no longer need to follow it. Again, in Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, yet you don't consistently interpret that as meaning that we no longer need to follow the Law of Christ.

Here is what Paul said about believing that some of the laws/ordinances were not fulfilled by Christ and that they must still be physically performed by a believer:

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Paul uses the example of circumcision in the above passage. However, he could have just as easily used the example of honoring the Sabbath Day by physically resting one day a week. Both physical acts were fulfilled by Christ and are no longer are necessary to be performed by a New Covenant believer. Paul even says that if a believer thinks that they still need to do even just one physical act to be acceptable to God, then that believer is still under the Old Covenant of Law and must then follow all the Old Covenant laws & ordinances. Why is this true? Because the belief that Christ didn't fulfill the entire law violates the person's repentance from works and shows a lack of faith. And without faith, the person is no longer under grace. Their sins will remain.

That verses does not say anything about them not believing some laws/ordinances were not fulfilled by Christ. Paul was a servant of God, so it is important to recognize that he could speak against obeying what God has commanded for an incorrect reason without speaking against obeying what God has commanded. If Paul had been speaking against circumcision for any reason, then Galatians 5:2 would mean that he caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when He had him circumcised and Christ is of no value to roughly 70% of the men in the US. In Acts 15:1, men from Judea were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the reason for why God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld the Law of God by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason. In Exodus 12:48, Gentiles who want to eat of the Passover lamb are required to become circumcised, so the Jerusalem Council should not be interpreted as ruling against Gentiles correctly obeying what God has commanded as if they had the authority to countermand God.

Nowhere does the Bible say that we are no longer required to physically obey what God has commanded. The Law of God was never given as a way of becoming acceptable to God even as the result of perfect obedience to it, so again it is important to recognize that the Bible can speak against doing something for incorrect reasons without speaking against doing it for correct reasons. Sin is the transgression of the Law of God, so It is absurd to think that the way to avoid having our sins remain is by refusing to obey it.

In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

Even just one sin will cause a person to be under the condemnation of the law. So yes, God does require us to have perfect obedience to the law. Christ had perfect obedience to the law and after Christ's work under the New Covenant is complete, all mankind will also have perfect obedience to the law. But since all mankind sins, Christ needed to become a perfect blood sacrifice in order for a person's sins to be forgiven. And because of Christ's sacrifice, all the sins that a person will ever commit will be forgiven by God. To have access to that forgiveness, God requires a person to have faith in Christ. It is that faith that makes Christ's pathway straight for Him to come to them and convert them. Then, after the newly born child of God has spiritually matured so that they only walk by faith and by the Spirit, the person will never sin again. They will then be exactly like Christ. This is our salvation.

Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have not had perfect obedience, so if God required us to have perfect obedience, then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we are not required to have perfect obedience. If someone repents after they have sinned and returns to obedience to the Law of God, then they do not come under its condemnation, but rather there is only condemnation for those who refuse to submit to it. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked, so verses like Romans 8:1 that say that there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ are only referring to those who are following his example of walking in obedience to the Law of God. The only reason why someone would need to have perfect obedience to the Law of God is if they are going to give themselves to pay for the sins of the world - the rest of us can thankfully have our sins forgiven and can still be saved without having had perfect obedience. The way to have faith in Christ is not by refusing to obey the Law of God, but just the opposite. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God. Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God and our salvation is about actually being made to be like him, not just being counted as being like him.

.
As I said earlier, Christ fulfilled all of the law. Because of such, we have no works to perform in order to be acceptable to Christ. We are acceptable because we trust Christ to do all the works for us and from within us. He is the Savior and will do all that is necessary to save us. And since Christ performs all the works and fulfills all the law, a converted believer will cease from their own works. The spiritual rest that Christ provides for us is what the physical Sabbath Day law foreshadowed.

Joe

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalm 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His law and it would be contradictory to think that we should trust in God instead of trusting in His law. We ca't enter into God's rest by refusing to follow His instructions for how to enter into His rest.

 

[FaithWillDo]

While you didn't say that it has been abolished, you are interpreting fulfilling the law as meaning the same thing as abolishing or relaxing it. If we no longer need to follow parts of the Law of God, then it has been abolished. Nowhere does the Bible say that mankind cannot fulfill the law or that Christ came to fulfill it for us, but just the opposite. According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law. In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing it for us, so if Jesus had come to fulfill it for us instead of graciously teaching us to fulfill it, then he would have been removing our gift of salvation from us, so thankfully he did not do that.


Again, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it and he warned that those who relax the least part of it or teach other to relax the least part of it will be called least in the Kingdom, so you should not interpret fulfilling the law as meaning the same thing as abolishing it or as relaxing even the least part of it. Unless it is your goal to be the least in the Kingdom, then you should repent from teaching that we no longer anger need to obey parts of it. Nowhere does the Bible state that Jesus fulfilling the law means that we no longer need to follow it. Again, in Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, yet you don't consistently interpret that as meaning that we no longer need to follow the Law of Christ.


That verses does not say anything about them not believing some laws/ordinances were not fulfilled by Christ. Paul was a servant of God, so it is important to recognize that he could speak against obeying what God has commanded for an incorrect reason without speaking against obeying what God has commanded. If Paul had been speaking against circumcision for any reason, then Galatians 5:2 would mean that he caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when He had him circumcised and Christ is of no value to roughly 70% of the men in the US. In Acts 15:1, men from Judea were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the reason for why God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld the Law of God by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason. In Exodus 12:48, Gentiles who want to eat of the Passover lamb are required to become circumcised, so the Jerusalem Council should not be interpreted as ruling against Gentiles correctly obeying what God has commanded as if they had the authority to countermand God.

Nowhere does the Bible say that we are no longer required to physically obey what God has commanded. The Law of God was never given as a way of becoming acceptable to God even as the result of perfect obedience to it, so again it is important to recognize that the Bible can speak against doing something for incorrect reasons without speaking against doing it for correct reasons. Sin is the transgression of the Law of God, so It is absurd to think that the way to avoid having our sins remain is by refusing to obey it.

In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.



Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have not had perfect obedience, so if God required us to have perfect obedience, then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we are not required to have perfect obedience. If someone repents after they have sinned and returns to obedience to the Law of God, then they do not come under its condemnation, but rather there is only condemnation for those who refuse to submit to it. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked, so verses like Romans 8:1 that say that there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ are only referring to those who are following his example of walking in obedience to the Law of God. The only reason why someone would need to have perfect obedience to the Law of God is if they are going to give themselves to pay for the sins of the world - the rest of us can thankfully have our sins forgiven and can still be saved without having had perfect obedience. The way to have faith in Christ is not by refusing to obey the Law of God, but just the opposite. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God. Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God and our salvation is about actually being made to be like him, not just being counted as being like him.


God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalm 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His law and it would be contradictory to think that we should trust in God instead of trusting in His law. We ca't enter into God's rest by refusing to follow His instructions for how to enter into His rest.

Dear Soyeong,
You said:
While you didn't say that it has been abolished, you are interpreting fulfilling the law as meaning the same thing as abolishing or relaxing it.

No, the law was not abolished but since mankind cannot fulfill the law, Christ came to do it for us. We share in that fulfillment when Christ indwells us. As I have stated, the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is that in the Old Covenant, the works of complying with the law are mankind's responsibility. And since mankind cannot perfectly comply with the law, Christ came to do the works of compliance for us. Under the New Covenant, all the works are the works of Christ. They are his responsibility to perform and complete. If we believe we must add to the works of Christ, then we are saying Christ is not sufficient and we will fall from grace. We must learn to trust Christ for 100% of our needs. This trust is called faith.

You said:
...so if Jesus had come to fulfill it for us instead of graciously teaching us to fulfill it, then he would have been removing our gift of salvation from us, so thankfully he did not do that.

This statement is in direct conflict with scripture and the New Covenant. The Holy Spirit within us (that Christ gives us) governs us and causes us to "will and to do". We cannot take credit for obeying the law. The credit belongs to Christ who lives within us and directs us. A part from Him, we could NEVER obey the law. We would always eventually sin because God created mankind spiritually marred. The flaw is mankind's spiritual weakness. It is that weakness that made mankind carnally minded and sinful. To obey the laws of God, we must be spiritually changed. That change happens when the Holy Spirit enters us and begins directing our "will" which causes us "to do".

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

You said:
Unless it is your goal to be the least in the Kingdom, then you should repent from teaching that we no longer anger need to obey parts of it.

I have never said that we don't obey even one part. We obey it all because Christ within us obeys it all. We obey the Sabbath Day by resting from our works. The physical observance of one day of rest is only a foreshadow of how we will obey it spiritually upon our conversion. I obey the Sabbath Day law every day of the week because I have entered into the rest of Christ.

You said:
Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have not had perfect obedience, so if God required us to have perfect obedience, then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we are not required to have perfect obedience.

Scriptural repentance is turning away from approaching God by our own works. This is what the Old Covenant was founded upon. Under the New Covenant, the works are all Christ's works to perform. When Christ began His ministry, His call of repentance was to make this change.

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

After a person is converted, they will have perfect repentance (remain faithful/no works of their own) and will never turn away from it. Christ will see to it because He will direct us from within. But before a person is converted, the babe will, without exception (since Paul's death), fall away back to works and will lose their salvation. This is the sin that leads to death that John mentions in his letters. It is this deception of mixing works with faith that Satan uses to build his apostate church in this world.

I'm out of time for now to respond any further.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

This says nothing of faith. The measure means just that; it's how me measure something as we do with a ruler

Dear Doug,
A measure means a portion. Christ had the Spirit without measure (the full amount).
Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

There is no scripture about all you say about this latter rain baptism. The Bible says there is ONE baptism. You are saying there are two, Our baptism of the Spirit and this latter rain baptism

Dear Doug,
The Early Rain is a small measure of the Spirit. It is not the baptism. There is only one baptism.

The Early Rain is what Paul received on the Damascus Road. This gave Paul a measure of faith and caused Paul to call Jesus "Lord". But Paul remained blind and had to be lead by the hand. But since Paul was chosen, Christ came again and poured out the Latter Rain. This is the baptism. This is when Paul could finally understand God's Word clearly and grow from a babe to a little child.

Joe

 

[Soyeong]

Dear Soyeong,
You said:
While you didn't say that it has been abolished, you are interpreting fulfilling the law as meaning the same thing as abolishing or relaxing it.

No, the law was not abolished but since mankind cannot fulfill the law, Christ came to do it for us. We share in that fulfillment when Christ indwells us. As I have stated, the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is that in the Old Covenant, the works of complying with the law are mankind's responsibility. And since mankind cannot perfectly comply with the law, Christ came to do the works of compliance for us. Under the New Covenant, all the works are the works of Christ. They are his responsibility to perform and complete. If we believe we must add to the works of Christ, then we are saying Christ is not sufficient and we will fall from grace. This trust is called faith.

It is good to recognize when you are just making things up that have not foundation in what is stated in the Bible. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalm 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions and it is contradictory to think that we should trust in God instead of obediently trusting in His instructions. It is also contradictory to think that we should trust in God's Word made flesh instead of obediently trusting in God's Word.

To use an analogy, if two people came to a bridge that they were told was safe and the first person stood there mentally affirming that the bridge is safe while the second person crossed it, then the second person would be experiencing what it means to trust that the bridge is safe in a way that the first person is not, and the Hebrew word "emunah" and the Greek word "pistis" are referring to the kind of trust that the second person has.

You said:
...so if Jesus had come to fulfill it for us instead of graciously teaching us to fulfill it, then he would have been removing our gift of salvation from us, so thankfully he did not do that.

This statement is in direct conflict with scripture and the New Covenant. The Holy Spirit within us (that Christ gives us) governs us and causes us to "will and to do". We cannot take credit for obeying the law. The credit belongs to Christ who lives within us and directs us. A part from Him, we could NEVER obey the law. We would always eventually sin because God created mankind spiritually marred. The flaw is mankind's spiritual weakness. It is that weakness that made mankind carnally minded and sinful. To obey the laws of God, we must be spiritually changed. That change happens when the Holy Spirit enters us and begins directing our "will" which causes us "to do".

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

My statement was based on what Titus 2:11-13, so it doesn't contradict the New Covenant, but rather it just contradicts your misunderstanding of it. Christ lived in obedience to the Law of God, so that is also the way that we get to live when he is living in us, but you have somehow twisted that around to mean that we don't have to live in obedience to it. God did not give His laws are instructions for how to do works apart from Him, but rather obeying His instructions is the way to trust in Him alone. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to the Law of God. It is contradictory for you think that we are walking in our own way by walking in God's way.

You said:
Unless it is your goal to be the least in the Kingdom, then you should repent from teaching that we no longer anger need to obey parts of it.

I have never said that we don't obey even one part. We obey it all because Christ within us obeys it all. We obey the Sabbath Day by resting from our works. The physical observance of one day of rest is only a foreshadow of how we will obey it spiritually upon our conversion. I obey the Sabbath Day law every day of the week because I have entered into the rest of Christ.

You stated:

"They do not need to perform any of the purification or sacrificial ordinances any longer. They do not need to be circumcised, they do not need to physically obverse one day of rest per week, they do not need to slay a lamb on Passover, they do not need to avoid pork products, etc. etc. "

So you are clearly speak against obeying ore than one part. Moreover, your statement is directly contradicting your claim that we obey it all. We obey the command to keep the 7th day holy by following Christ's example of keeping the 7th day holy. We can't obey the command to keep the day holy on every day of the week. We can't enter into God's rest by refusing to obey His instructions for how to do that and by having the same disobedience that prevented the Israelites from entering into God's rest.

You said:
Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have not had perfect obedience, so if God required us to have perfect obedience, then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we are not required to have perfect obedience.

Scriptural repentance is turning away from approaching God by our own works. This is what the Old Covenant was founded upon. Under the New Covenant, the works are all Christ's works to perform. When Christ began His ministry, His call of repentance was to make this change.

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

After a person is converted, they will have perfect repentance (remain faithful/no works of their own) and will never turn away from it. Christ will see to it because He will direct us from within. But before a person is converted, the babe will, without exception (since Paul's death), fall away back to works and will lose their salvation. This is the sin that leads to death that John mentions in his letters. It is this deception of mixing works with faith that Satan uses to build his apostate church in this world.

I'm out of time for now to respond any further.

Joe

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of God was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which is in accordance with him being sent as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26). Jesus notably did not come as the promised seed to curse us by turning us away from our obedience to the Law of God. Nowhere does the Bible call for us to repent from our obedience to God - you are just making that up. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it. We can't be saved from our sin while refusing to repent from our sin. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, not the same as those who refused to keep them. We can't have faith in God instead of having faith in His instructions.

 

[FaithWillDo]

It is good to recognize when you are just making things up that have not foundation in what is stated in the Bible. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalm 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions and it is contradictory to think that we should trust in God instead of obediently trusting in His instructions. It is also contradictory to think that we should trust in God's Word made flesh instead of obediently trusting in God's Word.

To use an analogy, if two people came to a bridge that they were told was safe and the first person stood there mentally affirming that the bridge is safe while the second person crossed it, then the second person would be experiencing what it means to trust that the bridge is safe in a way that the first person is not, and the Hebrew word "emunah" and the Greek word "pistis" are referring to the kind of trust that the second person has.


My statement was based on what Titus 2:11-13, so it doesn't contradict the New Covenant, but rather it just contradicts your misunderstanding of it. Christ lived in obedience to the Law of God, so that is also the way that we get to live when he is living in us, but you have somehow twisted that around to mean that we don't have to live in obedience to it. God did not give His laws are instructions for how to do works apart from Him, but rather obeying His instructions is the way to trust in Him alone. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to the Law of God. It is contradictory for you think that we are walking in our own way by walking in God's way.


You stated:

"They do not need to perform any of the purification or sacrificial ordinances any longer. They do not need to be circumcised, they do not need to physically obverse one day of rest per week, they do not need to slay a lamb on Passover, they do not need to avoid pork products, etc. etc. "

So you are clearly speak against obeying ore than one part. Moreover, your statement is directly contradicting your claim that we obey it all. We obey the command to keep the 7th day holy by following Christ's example of keeping the 7th day holy. We can't obey the command to keep the day holy on every day of the week. We can't enter into God's rest by refusing to obey His instructions for how to do that and by having the same disobedience that prevented the Israelites from entering into God's rest.


In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of God was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which is in accordance with him being sent as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26). Jesus notably did not come as the promised seed to curse us by turning us away from our obedience to the Law of God. Nowhere does the Bible call for us to repent from our obedience to God - you are just making that up. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it. We can't be saved from our sin while refusing to repent from our sin. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, not the same as those who refused to keep them. We can't have faith in God instead of having faith in His instructions.

Dear Soyeong,
You haven't understood the difference between the Old Covenant and New Covenant. The Old Covenant is natural and the New Covenant is spiritual. You are living like the Old Covenant laws and ordinances are still necessary to be performed. The Old Covenant laws and ordinances were fulfilled by Christ and they are fulfilled spiritually for a converted believer. Because they are, they don't need to be physically followed any longer.

Do you believe that you need to physically eat the Lord's Supper? Do you believe that you need to be water baptized?

For converted believers, both are being complied with spiritually instead of physically. Babes, who remain carnally minded, observe these physical commands because they can't yet comply with them spiritually.

The Lord's Supper is the natural, the consuming of truth upon conversion is the spiritual. Water baptism is the natural, the spiritual baptism that comes latter (the Latter Rain) is the spiritual. After the spiritual comes, the natural is no longer necessary.

The same is true for physical circumcision and the physical observance of one day of rest per week. Once converted, they are both spiritually accomplished by Christ within the person. The physical observance of both laws will end.

There is simply nothing physical that needs to be done any longer to make a converted believer acceptable to Christ.

After a person is converted, they will be a new man who is governed by Christ. They will have the same character traits as He does. They will love God and will love their neighbor which will cause them to do good works. There is nothing else.

Look at what Christ said about the Lord's Supper:

Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

The physical eating of bread and drinking wine is a physical type that foreshadows its spiritual fulfillment. It is fulfilled for a person when they are converted. That is when they enter the Kingdom of Heaven and Christ begins spiritually feeding them His truth. It happens to all converted believers while they are still in the flesh. If a person doesn't spiritually consume the Lord's Supper prior to dying, they will not be found in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

It applies to what Paul was saying it was about, which was the resurrected body

Doug,
It is a concept that applies to many things. You just can't see it.
Joe