I'm a troubled soul.

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Bobby Jo

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... mankind has a propendency to afford documentary credibility that increases exponentially to the age and mysticism the source. The discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls is one such example ...

... is it always going to be criticism with you?

Nooooo, -- quite the opposite. Scripture confirms that GOD is TRUE throughout the ages, and the Dead Sea Scrolls CONFIRM that GOD's Word is Faithful and True, in spite of our burdens (Job), and in spite of our circumstances (John the Baptist). GOD is there for us in our darkest hours, and in our mountain peaks.

HIS Promises are Faithful, and HIS depths are unfathomable. :)
Bobby Jo
 

Giuliano

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Nooooo, -- quite the opposite. Scripture confirms that GOD is TRUE throughout the ages, and the Dead Sea Scrolls CONFIRM that GOD's Word is Faithful and True, in spite of our burdens (Job), and in spite of our circumstances (John the Baptist). GOD is there for us in our darkest hours, and in our mountain peaks.

HIS Promises are Faithful, and HIS depths are unfathomable. :)
Bobby Jo
Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

The dark hours are sometimes there to teach us things. Those who are weak in faith may not tested by the darkest hours since they could not pass the test.
 
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Nancy

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Nooooo, -- quite the opposite. Scripture confirms that GOD is TRUE throughout the ages, and the Dead Sea Scrolls CONFIRM that GOD's Word is Faithful and True, in spite of our burdens (Job), and in spite of our circumstances (John the Baptist). GOD is there for us in our darkest hours, and in our mountain peaks.

HIS Promises are Faithful, and HIS depths are unfathomable. :)
Bobby Jo

I haven't studied anything much about the dead sea scrolls other than they did contain scripture. But that being beside the point, I happen to like Mike and believe he is a spirit filled Christian. Also, can't say as I agree 100% with any one Christian on this or any other site but...as long as the core beliefs in Christ are in line, that we will all have in common :)
 

Bobby Jo

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I haven't studied anything much about the dead sea scrolls other than they did contain scripture. ...

... and the point being, -- Scripture in the original text is not the Book of Mormon. It's a foundational guidance for LIFE and LIFE MORE ABUNDANTLY. Of course men alter those thoughts under translation, and further alter those thoughts from the pulpit. And the further we get from Scripture the less stable our walk with GOD becomes.

So to find encouragements for "JOB" and "JOHN the BAPTIST" challenges, we MUST hear from GOD who can and will meet all of our yearnings. :)
Bobby Jo
 
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Nancy

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... and the point being, -- Scripture in the original text is not the Book of Mormon. It's a foundational guidance for LIFE and LIFE MORE ABUNDANTLY. Of course men alter those thoughts under translation, and further alter those thoughts from the pulpit. And the further we get from Scripture the less stable our walk with GOD becomes.

So to find encouragements for "JOB" and "JOHN the BAPTIST" challenges, we MUST hear from GOD who can and will meet all of our yearnings. :)
Bobby Jo

I understand what you are saying but should this be on another thread of it's own? This is a thread about a brother who needs encouragement and prayer.
God Bless
 
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Rita

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Sorry Bobby but, I would take a gander here and say that @Mike Waters has been walking with the Lord and living in trust and faith in The Lord probably before you were even born! Are we not human and fall short or get weary in well doing at times? Especially considering what the man is going through right now!
Where is your compassion or, is it always going to be criticism with you?
Totally agree with you Nancy, and I have known Mike for many many years and never doubted his faith x
Rita
 
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Mike Waters

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I cling to the hope (dare I say 'belief'?) that God will speak directly into the heart of every person, or use any secular or religious medium (including any version of the Bible) in ways that are commensurate with a person's capability/readiness to receive the things that God (who knows the heart of every person) will accordingly choose to say.
And if I am not mistaken in that hope/belief, then it follows that God will say things to the person of limited capability/readiness that will differ considerably from many of the things that he might say to the pilgrim who has drawn ever closer to God throughout a lifetime of dedicated discipleship.
In this respect what I would call 'personally relevant truth', as distinct from 'universally absolute truth', totally eclipses the views expressed in most man made 'Statements of Faith' such as that of the Evangelical Alliance.

As an example of my own 'personally relevant truth', I believe God to have told me that, contrary to the hyper Calvinist belief, he will not condemn a person to an eternal lifetime of torment in hellfire as a punishment for the fact that such a person, who by reason of geographical isolation, mental incapacity, or premature death, will never have heard what we regard as the Gospel message, and will never so much as seen or known of the existence of a Bible.

Some may support the hyper Calvinist view on the basis that they find it to reflect the 'plenary verbally inspired' words of certain scriptures.

IMO the best any of us can do is to pray that God will increase the capability/readiness of our hearts to hear his deepest truths.
But nothing that we can do can redress the fact that we will all constantly be at different stages of our 'walks of faith'.
Why oh why then do so many post so critically and dogmatically without bestowing more abundant honour on those members of the body, which they think to be less honourable? (1 Corinthians 12:23)
 
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marksman

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Gradually I have become less inclined to contribute to forums because of the irreconcilability of “This is what God has said, and this is what he means by it” versus “No, what he has really said is this, and this is what he actually means by it”.
To most readers this conflict must surely be regarded as being inevitable, sad, laughable, or even pathetic. To me it all pivots around the degree of one’s dependence on ‘plenary verbal inspiration’.

It seems to me that mankind has a propendency to afford documentary credibility that increases exponentially to the age and mysticism the source. The discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls is one such example and Joseph Smith’s claim to have discovered the Book of Mormon buried deep amongst the roots of an old pine tree is another, albeit less widely acclaimed, example.

“The Law and the Prophets” is the oldest of Christian documentation, through to the writers of present day hymns and sermons (you might even add yourself to the latest list). But along that line of writings verbal inspiration is accorded gradually reducing inerrancy, until you get to the likes of you and I, some of whom might well be considered to be 100% lacking in inerrancy.
The post Reformation denominational explosion is one enormous seed bed of conflicting degrees of inerrancy. If one out of 100 Reformers was totally innerrant then 99 were at least partially errant, and more likely so too were all 100.

So, to those of you who present what you believe on the basis of its plenary verbal inerrancy I challenge you to document just what it is that you consider to be that basis. You might say that it is the ‘Bible’. but how can 100 different English versions each be totally verbally inerrant?….that would be an utter contradiction of terms.
There are those who claim to be of the ‘KJV only’ persuasion, but do they not not know that the ‘V’ stands for ‘Version’, and do they not know the meaning of that word?

Beam me up Scottie….I want to get off the bus.

I have been doing and am doing an intensive study of New Testament Church life, both as a study of the bible itself and a study of people who have delved into the facts surrounding what actually did happen in those days. Sometimes the Bible only gives a basic outline of events so we have to accept that as it is or we can delve further into the background and find out a bit more about the story recorded. I have found this valuable as we have this tendency to interpret the scriptures in the light of the church experience we are in today.

When we do that, we are comparing apples with oranges, and when we do that we will not find the true meaning of the words spoken or written. This a tendency of those who reply on proof-texts to prove their point. A classic example is the idea of communion which we are assiduously told has to be every Sunday and the Last Supper is used as authority for that claim and the chapter in Corinthians where Paul talks about it. People who do this always leave out the context which gives the passages an entirely different meaning.

Since I have delved into the background of New Testament Church life I have had an entirely new vista opened up to me and see that we have got a lot of our interpretation of scripture wrong. As a result, I am correcting the errors that I believed that were denominational imperatives.

Being a church or a believer is a moving process as we should all be changing for the better (known as sanctification) because no-one is the fount of all wisdom and truth. We grow and we change. If we don't grow we don't change and we get stuck in a rut as too many churches do.

Any church that says we believe this and we believe that is foolish because in 10 years' time the situation may have changed dramatically and what they believe is well, to say the least, what they should not be believing. The only thing that I am interested in a church believing is that Jesus Christ is Lord because if they believe that everything will flow from it.

Most church belief statements have the hidden purpose of saying if you don't believe what we believe you are not one of us or you can't join us.

I was a founding member of a pentecostal church about 10 years ago and all went well until they decided everyone had to sign a doctrinal statement. I read it through and it was nothing unusual except for one doctrine which I was not sure about. I did not reject it. I just needed to make sure in my own mind that I understood what it was and what it meant.

I told the leader this and to sign it would be dishonest until I had come to grips with that particular doctrine. Next thing I knew I was told that my ministry was not welcome until I signed the document. And this was a leader who prophesied that God had told him he was going to double the congregation every year. That meant by now the congregation would be about 50,000 people. It is actually about 50 people. But that is OK because that is what the leader said so it doesn't matter if it was a false prophecy.

I was the same person before I was asked to sign and after I was asked to sign, so what changed? Denominational law that could not be challenged in any shape or form. And people claim that we are no longer under the law. What other jokes do they tell? I would like to dedicate a Frank Sinatra song to all those denominational "we are not under the law"yers. "I Did It My Way."

Until every church does it God's way there will be disagreement and ridiculous commentary on what the Bible says, because until you do things his way, you will never know what he had in mind, what he has in mind, and what he is going to do. And if anyone can prove otherwise, please let me know.

I did not intend writing all this but once I put finger to keyboard it just flowed so I hope it all makes sense.
 

Mike Waters

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@marksman I think I agree with what you say.
But I only say 'think' because it will take a lot more consideration of how it should be applied before I could go beyond 'thinking'.
Is not what you have been considering worthy of a dedicated topic so that I (and maybe others) can travel along with you?
I found myself in a similar situation with my first membership of a forum several decades ago.
The forum required full acquiescence to the Evangelical Alliance's Statement of Faith as a condition of membership, and there was one part which I accepted in general but was unable to wholeheartedly accept in respect of one aspect of interpretation and application, and that eventually obliged me to leave.
 
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marksman

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@marksman I think I agree with what you say.
But I only say 'think' because it will take a lot more consideration of how it should be applied before I could go beyond 'thinking'.
Is not what you have been considering worthy of a dedicated topic so that I (and maybe others) can travel along with you?
I found myself in a similar situation with my first membership of a forum several decades ago.
The forum required full acquiescence to the Evangelical Alliance's Statement of Faith as a condition of membership, and there was one part which I accepted in general but was unable to wholeheartedly accept in respect of one aspect of interpretation and application, and that eventually obliged me to leave.
I may be wrong but I am not aware of any doctrinal demands on this site and that good because all sorts of ideas can be canvassed and be learned from. They have a great doctrinal statement which I believe 100% which says we are all a work in progress.
 

Nancy

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I cling to the hope (dare I say 'belief'?) that God will speak directly into the heart of every person, or use any secular or religious medium (including any version of the Bible) in ways that are commensurate with a person's capability/readiness to receive the things that God (who knows the heart of every person) will accordingly choose to say.
And if I am not mistaken in that hope/belief, then it follows that God will say things to the person of limited capability/readiness that will differ considerably from many of the things that he might say to the pilgrim who has drawn ever closer to God throughout a lifetime of dedicated discipleship.
In this respect what I would call 'personally relevant truth', as distinct from 'universally absolute truth', totally eclipses the views expressed in most man made 'Statements of Faith' such as that of the Evangelical Alliance.

As an example of my own 'personally relevant truth', I believe God to have told me that, contrary to the hyper Calvinist belief, he will not condemn a person to an eternal lifetime of torment in hellfire as a punishment for the fact that such a person, who by reason of geographical isolation, mental incapacity, or premature death, will never have heard what we regard as the Gospel message, and will never so much as seen or known of the existence of a Bible.

Some may support the hyper Calvinist view on the basis that they find it to reflect the 'plenary verbally inspired' words of certain scriptures.

IMO the best any of us can do is to pray that God will increase the capability/readiness of our hearts to hear his deepest truths.
But nothing that we can do can redress the fact that we will all constantly be at different stages of our 'walks of faith'.
Why oh why then do so many post so critically and dogmatically without bestowing more abundant honour on those members of the body, which they think to be less honourable? (1 Corinthians 12:23)

Word! Seems that lot's of folks feel the need to display their intellectual prowess (or, even lack thereof :D ) in order to make themselves look smarter than others...And you are right Mike, we are all at different stages and for the life of me, I don't get why others want us to be exactly where they are??! That is a job for The Holy Spirit and it should be our pleasure to seek Him.
God Bless,
Nancy
 
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Mike Waters

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When it comes to versions or translations, we know that the traditional Hebrew and Greek texts (in printed form) were used by the King James translators (who had access to a huge number of other versions and translations). Textual scholars in the 19th century compared and collated manuscripts and determined that the Authorized Version was indeed a faithful and reliable translation (keeping in mind that words in italics were added to help clarify verses and may be ignored if necessary). It became the basis of all conservative Christian commentaries, and no one questioned either the inspiration or the inerrancy of the Bible until the 20th century.

Consider the background.
Henry VIII was originally a staunch Catholic, and Catholicism was accordingly England’s official religion until 1527 when Henry sought to establish what was to become known as ‘The Church of England’ (with himself as its head) so that he could personally authorise the annulment of his marriage to Catherine of Aragon so that he could marry Anne Boleyn (which Pope Clement VII had refused to authorise).
Accordingly Henry instructed Archbishop Thomas Cranmer to organise the constitution of the new Church, which Cranmer began to do by authoring its 42 Articles of Faith (later to be consolidated into 39 Articles) during which time Henry died in 1547 leaving his son Edward VI to continue with the task.
That is the extraordinary and questionable background and motivation that gave rise to the emergence of the ‘Church of England’.

Fast forward two decades and King James had succeeded to the throne, and had determined by 1604 to oversee the translation of the Catholic Bible from Latin into English, and appointed 42 scholars to carry out the work under his instruction that the translation should conform with the Anglican Church’s established 39 Articles of Faith.
Such work, to become known as the ‘KJV’ Bible, was completed by 1611 and, as you say, became the foundational work on which so many subsequent alternative ‘versions’ were based.

But is it really worthy of being accorded ‘plenary verbal inspiration?

I will give you one glaring example of why and how the translation work of those 42 scholars ought perhaps to not be considered sufficiently worthy to be accorded such authority.
And that involves their lax adoption of the word ‘Hell’ in each and every one of its 23 mentions throughout the New Testament.

On 12 occasions it is the original Greek word ‘Gehenna’ that they translated as ‘Hell’.
On 10 occasions it the original Greek word ‘Hades’ that they translated as ‘Hell’.
And on the one remaining occasion it is the original Greek word ‘Tartarus’ that they translated as ‘Hell’.

In reality
‘Gehenna’ is simply the valley outside of the walls of Jerusalem where dead bodies and refuse were dumped (and where superstition has it that children were sacrificed to the god of Molec).
‘Hades’ is simply ‘the burial graves of the clinically dead’.
And ‘Tartarus’ describes the superstition that there was a gate leading down into the depths of the inevitable intense spontaneous combustion beneath the smouldering pile of waste in the Gehenna Valley.

Dr Robert Youngs’ literal translation is one of the few that do not repeat such lax translation ….. but what led the King James’ 42 scholars to be so lax?

It’s only my opinion but I suggest that the KJV translators were so preoccupied with trying to ensure that their translation conformed with Cranmer’s work in establishing the ‘Church of England that they failed to give due cognisance to the fact that the pagan originated word ‘Hell’ didn’t even exist at the time when the KJV manuscripts were penned.
 
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Enoch111

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But is it really worthy of being accorded ‘plenary verbal inspiration?
You have chosen to go off on a tangent, rather than deal with the pertinent issue. "Is the King James Bible -- for all intents and purposes -- the Word of God in the English language? Yes or No"?

And the answer is quite obvious. All the conservative theologians, preachers, commentators, and scholars until the 20th century have regarded the Authorized Version as the Word of God.

What Henry VIII or James I did or did not do is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT.
...they failed to give due cognisance to the fact that the pagan originated word ‘Hell’ didn’t even exist at the time when the KJV manuscripts were penned.
This simply reveals your ignorance, not that of the translators. John Wyclif used the word "hell" for "gehenna" almost 300 years BEFORE the KJV.

Wyclif's Translation of Mark 9:43,44
43 And if thine hand cause thee to stumble, cut it away; it is better to thee to enter feeble into life, than have two hands, and go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched, [+And if thine hand offend thee, cut it away; it is good to thee feeble to enter into life, than having two hands to go into hell, into fire unquenchable,]

Hell is not a pagan concept but a biblical truth. So if you do not believe in hell, you do not really believe the Bible.
 

Nancy

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Consider the background.
Henry VIII was originally a staunch Catholic, and Catholicism was accordingly England’s official religion until 1527 when Henry sought to establish what was to become known as ‘The Church of England’ (with himself as its head) so that he could personally authorise the annulment of his marriage to Catherine of Aragon so that he could marry Anne Boleyn (which Pope Clement VII had refused to authorise).
Accordingly Henry instructed Archbishop Thomas Cranmer to organise the constitution of the new Church, which Cranmer began to do by authoring its 42 Articles of Faith (later to be consolidated into 39 Articles) during which time Henry died in 1547 leaving his son Edward VI to continue with the task.
That is the extraordinary and questionable background and motivation that gave rise to the emergence of the ‘Church of England’.

Fast forward two decades and King James had succeeded to the throne, and had determined by 1604 to oversee the translation of the Catholic Bible from Latin into English, and appointed 42 scholars to carry out the work under his instruction that the translation should conform with the Anglican Church’s established 39 Articles of Faith.
Such work, to become known as the ‘KJV’ Bible, was completed by 1611 and, as you say, became the foundational work on which so many subsequent alternative ‘versions’ were based.

But is it really worthy of being accorded ‘plenary verbal inspiration?

I will give you one glaring example of why and how the translation work of those 42 scholars ought perhaps to not be considered sufficiently worthy to be accorded such authority.
And that involves their lax adoption of the word ‘Hell’ in each and every one of its 23 mentions throughout the New Testament.

On 12 occasions it is the original Greek word ‘Gehenna’ that they translated as ‘Hell’.
On 10 occasions it the original Greek word ‘Hades’ that they translated as ‘Hell’.
And on the one remaining occasion it is the original Greek word ‘Tartarus’ that they translated as ‘Hell’.

In reality
‘Gehenna’ is simply the valley outside of the walls of Jerusalem where dead bodies and refuse were dumped (and where superstition has it that children were sacrificed to the god of Molec).
‘Hades’ is simply ‘the burial graves of the clinically dead’.
And ‘Tartarus’ describes the superstition that there was a gate leading down into the depths of the inevitable intense spontaneous combustion beneath the smouldering pile of waste in the Gehenna Valley.

Dr Robert Youngs’ literal translation is one of the few that do not repeat such lax translation ….. but what led the King James’ 42 scholars to be so lax?

It’s only my opinion but I suggest that the KJV translators were so preoccupied with trying to ensure that their translation conformed with Cranmer’s work in establishing the ‘Church of England that they failed to give due cognisance to the fact that the pagan originated word ‘Hell’ didn’t even exist at the time when the KJV manuscripts were penned.

Even though I do sometimes use the KJV it's what I started on and, it's easy to remember scriptures more easily but, what you wrote is something I'd read of a long time ago and personally, I do not think the KJV is worthy of being accorded ‘plenary verbal inspiration because of who put it together and under not God, but a man.
The NASB is my new go to and, of course the paraphrased ones like The Living Bible, I look up online as I don't have one. I'll have to check out the Robert Youngs!
 
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Bobby Jo

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... I suggest that the KJV translators were so preoccupied with trying to ensure that their translation conformed with ...

... their personal expectations, that they contorted the Dan. 9 Seven and the Sixty-two as though they were one duration to FALSELY present a "Jesus" fulfillment, -- which Newton correctly observed does "VIOLENCE" to Scripture. Thus the CORRECT rendering (typical of the RSV) shows an "anointed one" at the end of the Seven; and a second "anointed one" after the Sixty-two.

And of such are the unfathomable depths which gives us confidence of GOD's Presence in the affairs of men! :)
Bobby Jo
 

Joseph77

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QUOTE="Mike Waters, post: 783973, member: 8486"]I will give you one glaring example of why and how the translation work of those 42 scholars ought perhaps to not be considered sufficiently worthy to be accorded such authority.
And that involves their lax adoption of the word ‘Hell’ in each and every one of its 23 mentions throughout the New Testament.

On 12 occasions it is the original Greek word ‘Gehenna’ that they translated as ‘Hell’.
On 10 occasions it the original Greek word ‘Hades’ that they translated as ‘Hell’.
And on the one remaining occasion it is the original Greek word ‘Tartarus’ that they translated as ‘Hell’.

In reality
‘Gehenna’ is simply the valley outside of the walls of Jerusalem where dead bodies and refuse were dumped (and where superstition has it that children were sacrificed to the god of Molec).
‘Hades’ is simply ‘the burial graves of the clinically dead’.
And ‘Tartarus’ describes the superstition that there was a gate leading down into the depths of the inevitable intense spontaneous combustion beneath the smouldering pile of waste in the Gehenna Valley.

Dr Robert Youngs’ literal translation is one of the few that do not repeat such lax translation ….. but what led the King James’ 42 scholars to be so lax?

It’s only my opinion but I suggest that the KJV translators were so preoccupied with trying to ensure that their translation conformed with Cranmer’s work in establishing the ‘Church of England that they failed to give due cognisance to the fact that the pagan originated word ‘Hell’ didn’t even exist at the time when the KJV manuscripts were penned.[/QUOTE
===================================================================
This seems accurate, "in reality", from many sources either confirmed, or agreeing with the basic information about so-called "hell"....
 
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Joseph77

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John Wyclif used the word "hell" for "gehenna" almost 300 years BEFORE the KJV.
And just what did John Wyclif believe "hell" was ?
Did he agree with the original meaning , or some pagan meaning?

(I've never heard either way concerning John Wyclif)
 

Mike Waters

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Why can we not discuss each other's sincerely held inclinations/convictions without accusations of ignorance?
Enoch's words in black....My responses in Red.

You have chosen to go off on a tangent, rather than deal with the pertinent issue. "Is the King James Bible -- for all intents and purposes -- the Word of God in the English language? Yes or No"?
As I said in a previous post I believe that God will 'speak' directly into a person's heart, or will use any secular or religious media (including any version of the Bible) to tell us what we each need to know at any point in time, and that when God speaks thus then by grammatical definition it constitutes the 'Word of God'.
What Henry VIII or James I did or did not do is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT.
You are as entitled to that opinion as I am to my opinion that what they did was totally relevant.
This simply reveals your ignorance, not that of the translators. John Wyclif used the word "hell" for "gehenna" almost 300 years BEFORE the KJV.
Which simply confirms the fact that the lax usage of the word 'Hell' had become common place since its pagan origination.
Hell is not a pagan concept but a biblical truth. So if you do not believe in hell, you do not really believe the Bible.
Again you are as entitled to that opinion as I am to the fact (not an opinion) that it was Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus (as distinct from Hell) that constituted the relevant parts of the extant manuscript copies
 
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