I'm a troubled soul.

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Mike Waters

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Gradually I have become less inclined to contribute to forums because of the irreconcilability of “This is what God has said, and this is what he means by it” versus “No, what he has really said is this, and this is what he actually means by it”.
To most readers this conflict must surely be regarded as being inevitable, sad, laughable, or even pathetic. To me it all pivots around the degree of one’s dependence on ‘plenary verbal inspiration’.

It seems to me that mankind has a propendency to afford documentary credibility that increases exponentially to the age and mysticism the source. The discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls is one such example and Joseph Smith’s claim to have discovered the Book of Mormon buried deep amongst the roots of an old pine tree is another, albeit less widely acclaimed, example.

“The Law and the Prophets” is the oldest of Christian documentation, through to the writers of present day hymns and sermons (you might even add yourself to the latest list). But along that line of writings verbal inspiration is accorded gradually reducing inerrancy, until you get to the likes of you and I, some of whom might well be considered to be 100% lacking in inerrancy.
The post Reformation denominational explosion is one enormous seed bed of conflicting degrees of inerrancy. If one out of 100 Reformers was totally innerrant then 99 were at least partially errant, and more likely so too were all 100.

So, to those of you who present what you believe on the basis of its plenary verbal inerrancy I challenge you to document just what it is that you consider to be that basis. You might say that it is the ‘Bible’. but how can 100 different English versions each be totally verbally inerrant?….that would be an utter contradiction of terms.
There are those who claim to be of the ‘KJV only’ persuasion, but do they not not know that the ‘V’ stands for ‘Version’, and do they not know the meaning of that word?

Beam me up Scottie….I want to get off the bus.
 

quietthinker

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I'm persuaded the issues arise because the 'sign posts' have either been moved, were lost or were never there in peoples reality. Accurate and true 'sign posts' are critical because and using the building metaphor, if the foundation shifts or the bricks crumble it'll only be time before the wrong path will be deemed the right one.
I hope you can roll with my mixed metaphors.
 
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2 Chr. 34:19

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Gradually I have become less inclined to contribute to forums because of the irreconcilability of “This is what God has said, and this is what he means by it” versus “No, what he has really said is this, and this is what he actually means by it”.
To most readers this conflict must surely be regarded as being inevitable, sad, laughable, or even pathetic. To me it all pivots around the degree of one’s dependence on ‘plenary verbal inspiration’.

It seems to me that mankind has a propendency to afford documentary credibility that increases exponentially to the age and mysticism the source. The discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls is one such example and Joseph Smith’s claim to have discovered the Book of Mormon buried deep amongst the roots of an old pine tree is another, albeit less widely acclaimed, example.

“The Law and the Prophets” is the oldest of Christian documentation, through to the writers of present day hymns and sermons (you might even add yourself to the latest list). But along that line of writings verbal inspiration is accorded gradually reducing inerrancy, until you get to the likes of you and I, some of whom might well be considered to be 100% lacking in inerrancy.
The post Reformation denominational explosion is one enormous seed bed of conflicting degrees of inerrancy. If one out of 100 Reformers was totally innerrant then 99 were at least partially errant, and more likely so too were all 100.

So, to those of you who present what you believe on the basis of its plenary verbal inerrancy I challenge you to document just what it is that you consider to be that basis. You might say that it is the ‘Bible’. but how can 100 different English versions each be totally verbally inerrant?….that would be an utter contradiction of terms.
There are those who claim to be of the ‘KJV only’ persuasion, but do they not not know that the ‘V’ stands for ‘Version’, and do they not know the meaning of that word?

Beam me up Scottie….I want to get off the bus.
:) Stop the world, I want to get off!
 

2 Chr. 34:19

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I'm persuaded the issues arise because the 'sign posts' have either been moved, were lost or were never there in peoples reality. Accurate and true 'sign posts' are critical because and using the building metaphor, if the foundation shifts or the bricks crumble it'll only be time before the wrong path will be deemed the right one.
I hope you can roll with my mixed metaphors.
It’s like flying with the riddler...you can’t put Jesus in a box, He’s so diverse...yet people still try ‘who can know the mind of The Lord’?:)
 

Episkopos

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Gradually I have become less inclined to contribute to forums because of the irreconcilability of “This is what God has said, and this is what he means by it” versus “No, what he has really said is this, and this is what he actually means by it”.
To most readers this conflict must surely be regarded as being inevitable, sad, laughable, or even pathetic. To me it all pivots around the degree of one’s dependence on ‘plenary verbal inspiration’.

It seems to me that mankind has a propendency to afford documentary credibility that increases exponentially to the age and mysticism the source. The discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls is one such example and Joseph Smith’s claim to have discovered the Book of Mormon buried deep amongst the roots of an old pine tree is another, albeit less widely acclaimed, example.

“The Law and the Prophets” is the oldest of Christian documentation, through to the writers of present day hymns and sermons (you might even add yourself to the latest list). But along that line of writings verbal inspiration is accorded gradually reducing inerrancy, until you get to the likes of you and I, some of whom might well be considered to be 100% lacking in inerrancy.
The post Reformation denominational explosion is one enormous seed bed of conflicting degrees of inerrancy. If one out of 100 Reformers was totally innerrant then 99 were at least partially errant, and more likely so too were all 100.

So, to those of you who present what you believe on the basis of its plenary verbal inerrancy I challenge you to document just what it is that you consider to be that basis. You might say that it is the ‘Bible’. but how can 100 different English versions each be totally verbally inerrant?….that would be an utter contradiction of terms.
There are those who claim to be of the ‘KJV only’ persuasion, but do they not not know that the ‘V’ stands for ‘Version’, and do they not know the meaning of that word?

Beam me up Scottie….I want to get off the bus.


Truth is as real as a heart attack. We can think we are immune from pain and soon find out that our bodies are very sensitive to harm (unless we are lepers of course).

The truth works that way too.

You can deny the truth for a time...but sooner or later you will be confronted with the reapings of your ways.

What is the bible talking about? The bible is speaking of the truth...and in many ways more the long term aspects of truth. But also some of the immediate aspects.

The trick is to get things in order and in their proper perspective. As we get more experience in life we are potentially able to put things in their proper order and perspective.

What can be experienced as per the bible is life from heaven. An eternal kind of life. And this is borne out in experience by they who have been able to believe at the right time. So people can argue all day about the details of a particular teaching...and miss the life that the bible speaks of. To "strain out gnats and swallow camels" is actually inevitable among they who only reason with the carnal mind. So we see a lot of that going on. But the truth is till there in spite of the way people mishandle the words from God.

No one can put the slightest dent in the truth. But it is better for us if we allow the truth to make it's mark on us.
 

Mike Waters

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Thanks for the various wise responses, but my troubles have suddenly paled into insignificance with the news (since my OP) that my wife's cancer has become so widespread that all that can now be offered is 'palliative care'.
 

brian100

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What exactly troubles you, and can worrying about it add one more day to your life?
 

brian100

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Oh I see now.. Let God handle it.

God has the power to give her back. . in the next world. Also this world, too. As Love conquers all. I'm giving all my wealth to Miraculous medal for my Beloved. I can't live without her.

Parable of treasure buried in a field is a dead beloved. And fine pearl is a beloved.

Try living my life where your Beloved is gone the day after you marry.
 
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Rita

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Thanks for the various wise responses, but my troubles have suddenly paled into insignificance with the news (since my OP) that my wife's cancer has become so widespread that all that can now be offered is 'palliative care'.
Oh Mike I am so very sorry - I didn’t realise your wife had cancer, but perhaps I have missed a post about it.
Much love to you both xxxxx
Rita
 

Enoch111

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So, to those of you who present what you believe on the basis of its plenary verbal inerrancy I challenge you to document just what it is that you consider to be that basis.
First of all we need to be clear that plenary verbal inerrancy means that every word in the Bible is free from error because it is divinely inspired (2 Tim 3:16,17). So inspiration is the basis of this belief -- that God the Holy Spirit gave the original prophets, evangelists, and apostles the very words to be written down (either in Hebrew, or Aramaic, or Greek).

The basis of this belief rests within the Bible itself. The words of Christ and the apostles give us TOTAL CONFIDENCE that every word is a word of God as given in the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. So there is no need for anyone to be a troubled soul.

1. Jesus -- who is God --quoted from the Old Testament when confronted by Satan and said this: It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Mt 4:4)

And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live. (Deut 8:3)

This is already backed up by the entire Psalm 119 as well as Proverbs 30:5,6: Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

2. There are over 5,000 Greek manuscripts which all concur in supporting the traditional Greek text of the New Testament (the Received Text) even though there may be minor and inconsequential variations. There are also hundreds of Hebrew manuscripts which also concur in supporting the traditional or Masoretic text of the Old Testament. These are all copies of copies of copies of the original autographs (manuscripts), which confirm the doctrine of the divine preservation of Scripture. God ensured that faithful scribes would faithfully and meticulously copy the manuscripts until the invention of printing, even though the originals are long gone.

3. One of the best evidences that this is true is by comparing the Isaiah scroll found with the Dead Sea Scrolls (dating from c 200 BC) with the book of Isaiah in the Masoretic text (dating from c 900 AD). They are an almost exact match after 1,100 years. The Torah (and then the rest of the OT) was very carefully copied by Jewish scribes (Tannaim, Amoraim, and Masorethes) who even counted the letters.
You might say that it is the ‘Bible’. but how can 100 different English versions each be totally verbally inerrant?….that would be an utter contradiction of terms.
4. When it comes to versions or translations, we know that the traditional Hebrew and Greek texts (in printed form) were used by the King James translators (who had access to a huge number of other versions and translations). Textual scholars in the 19th century compared and collated manuscripts and determined that the Authorized Version was indeed a faithful and reliable translation (keeping in mind that words in italics were added to help clarify verses and may be ignored if necessary). It became the basis of all conservative Christian commentaries, and no one questioned either the inspiration or the inerrancy of the Bible until the 20th century.

But ever since the 18th and 19th century rationalistic scholars began promoting a handful of corrupted manuscripts as being the true Bible, and this led to modern bible versions (which are unreliable) starting in the 20th century.
 
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brian100

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First of all we need to be clear that plenary verbal inerrancy means that every word in the Bible is free from error.

U don't get out do you? I could easily prove everything other than Douay Rheims was edited to remove Mary.
 

brian100

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So I'm guessing when she die he blame God for it? And devil win?

Tell her you will find her in heaven! And the devil can't take her away. But his love might turn to hate by being troubled soul! He could take his love away!.. being alone is the pit.. I'm there now.. but I will rise above this suffering.
 

amadeus

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So I'm guessing when she die he blame God for it? And devil win?

Tell her you will find her in heaven! And the devil can't take her away. But his love might turn to hate by being troubled soul! He could take his love away!.. being alone is the pit.. I'm there now.. but I will rise above this suffering.
You should be careful what you say here without knowledge. Many years ago Mike's first wife who he loved dearly died an early death. This is his second wife of many years who now suffers with cancer...
 

brian100

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I lost my wife right after we married so I know the grief. Its hell. 22 years ago. He was lucky to have her this long. And I stayed faithful and never remarried. Also, I never got to spend one day with my wife after we wed. So, nobody here had it harder than me.

Also lost my kid 22 years ago. I had 4 years with him, and never saw him again. The devil took everything from me.

This dude had 2 wives? He upset... but you have to go to God ..cause devil is waiting for him to mess up.

Being faced with this much grief at the end of your life is the test.. & I'm lucky it happened to me young. But you should of had this discussion with your other .. a long time ago. I know God is all powerful and gives back what is lost, and that is why I 'let God handle it"
 
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Rita

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@brian100 - I am sorry to hear about your own loses, but right now Mike is the one who is facing a heartbreaking situation. It is not right or fair to make grief and pain a competition, or presume it is any less painful because the circumstances are different. In many respects it’s like throwing bricks at someone when you should be coming along side them with understanding and compassion, more so if you yourself have experienced loss.

Rita