I'm a troubled soul.

[Joseph77]

Just what did bablon or persiia or other countries/ religions say or think or believe hell was before the first century ?

Why did Greece, et al, later incorporate that , other countries beliefs, into Christian teachings ?

 

[Cooper]

Jesus in the "Sermon on the Mount" used the words "Hell of Fire" or depending on the translation "Fire of Hell" as being the final destination of the ungodly, so what is the Hell of which he spoke? Here is the quote: -

"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgement.' But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgement; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire." (Matthew 5:21)

Hell is the final destiny of those who have not accepted the Christ as their saviour after they have passed through the great white throne of judgement, where they will be punished for their sin after the general resurrection and last judgement.

Hell is called "Sheol" in the Old Testament and "Hades" in the New Testament and simply translated means death and the grave. When Jesus spoke of "Hell Fire" in the beatitudes he illustrated it by pointing out the well known fires in the Valley of Hinnom close to Jerusalem that had been used for human sacrifice to pagan gods. This valley of death makes the point very forcibly that after the judgement those found wanting will hear the words

"Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41)

On the other hand those who found favour in the sight of God as a result of the atoning work of Christ, by grace through faith, will be spared eternal death as judgement for their sins and will hear the welcome words

"Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." (Matthew 25:32)

G86
ᾅδης
hadēs
hah'-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell. (Hades = grave which means hell)

H7585
שׁאל שׁאול
she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.


G1067
γέεννα
geenna
gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.


G5020
ταρταρόω
tartaroō
tar-tar-o'-o
From Τάρταρος Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: - cast down to hell.

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luk 23:42-43)

My own understanding is that while their mortal bodies remained in the grave (Hell), their spirits ascended into heaven as in the resurrection.

The fiery furnace, I believe is a reference to the common custom of cremation, and as with the grave it is for all eternity. The end; but neither the grave nor the fiery furnace of can destroy the soul of the believer.
.

 

[Joseph77]

When Jesus later ascended in to heaven, His body ascended - He was not separated from His body.
IN view of all Scripture, no one ever was shown truthfully to be floating around anyplace like a wraith/ wisp/ whatever, without a body.

 

[Behold]

Gradually I have become less inclined to contribute to forums because of the irreconcilability of “This is what God has said, and this is what he means by it” versus “No, what he has really said is this, and this is what he actually means by it”.
To most readers this conflict must surely be regarded as being inevitable, sad, laughable, or even pathetic. To me it all pivots around the degree of one’s dependence on ‘plenary verbal inspiration’.

It seems to me that mankind has a propendency to afford documentary credibility that increases exponentially to the age and mysticism the source. The discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls is one such example and Joseph Smith’s claim to have discovered the Book of Mormon buried deep amongst the roots of an old pine tree is another, albeit less widely acclaimed, example.

“The Law and the Prophets” is the oldest of Christian documentation, through to the writers of present day hymns and sermons (you might even add yourself to the latest list). But along that line of writings verbal inspiration is accorded gradually reducing inerrancy, until you get to the likes of you and I, some of whom might well be considered to be 100% lacking in inerrancy.
The post Reformation denominational explosion is one enormous seed bed of conflicting degrees of inerrancy. If one out of 100 Reformers was totally innerrant then 99 were at least partially errant, and more likely so too were all 100.

So, to those of you who present what you believe on the basis of its plenary verbal inerrancy I challenge you to document just what it is that you consider to be that basis. You might say that it is the ‘Bible’. but how can 100 different English versions each be totally verbally inerrant?….that would be an utter contradiction of terms.
There are those who claim to be of the ‘KJV only’ persuasion, but do they not not know that the ‘V’ stands for ‘Version’, and do they not know the meaning of that word?

Beam me up Scottie….I want to get off the bus.

What in general defines a heretic and their doctrine?
its that they devalue the Blood Atonement by substituting self effort in its place.

A rule of thumb regarding how to spot a Heretic, (other then the obvious cults..)

The authentic believer teaches...

"The blood of Jesus saved me, and the Blood of Jesus will KEEP ME SAVED".

The Heretic, will deny the second part of that statement.....the "keeps me saved", part.
They instead will insert "abiding, enduring, commandment keeping, Torah keeping, lifestyle, repenting, water baptism, .....or any other SELF EFFORT that has become their SAVIOR that they believe is "keeping them saved".

A heretic sounds like this......"yes, i know that Jesus saved me....but now I have to , i have to do...i have to not do......so that i keep myself saved".
They are easy to spot...Just listen for that "im keeping myself saved", speech.

Notice always, these 2 types, because they have revealed their True FRUIT.

 

[Cooper]

When Jesus later ascended in to heaven, His body ascended - He was not separated from His body.
IN view of all Scripture, no one ever was shown truthfully to be floating around anyplace like a wraith/ wisp/ whatever, without a body.

For we know that when this tent we live in now is taken down—when we die and leave these bodies—we will have wonderful new bodies in heaven, homes that will be ours forevermore, made for us by God himself and not by human hands.
(2 Corinthians 5:1 TLB)
.

 

[Mike Waters]

I should perhaps clarify that I am well aware of the many new testament verses and passages that appear to promote a fearful fate for a large majority of mankind. Whether or not I believe such verses and passages at their apparent face value is another matter that I would put aside as not being edifying.

 

[Enoch111]

And just what did John Wyclif believe "hell" was ? Did he agree with the original meaning , or some pagan meaning? (I've never heard either way concerning John Wyclif)

The reason I brought up Wyclif is because Mike Waters ignorantly stated that the word "hell" was not already in use by the time the KJV translators did their work. Wyclif had already used the word "hell" by 1382, so it must have been prevalent at least 300 years before the KJV was translated.

As to which Greek word was translated as "hell", it was the Greek word "Gehenna", which correctly refers to the Lake of Fire (Mark 9). When Jerome translated the Greek into the Latin Vulgate around 400 AD, he simply transliterated Gehenna to *Gehennum*.

I agree that the KJV translators should not have used the same word "hell" for "Sheol" or "Hades" or "Tartarus", but they should have simply transliterated those words. But to claim that Hell or Hades are merely pagan concepts is TOTAL NONSENSE. Long before the pagans talked about Hades, the Old Testament mentioned Sheol.

And Jesus Himself spoke about Gehenna as the Lake of Fire, eternal Hell, "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched". And His is the final authority, since it was Christ who created Hell for the devil and His angels: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels (Mt 25:41)

 

[Joseph77]

I agree that the KJV translators should not have used the same word "hell" for "Sheol" or "Hades" or "Tartarus", but they should have simply transliterated those words. But to claim that Hell or Hades are merely a pagan concepts it TOTAL NONSENSE. Long before the pagans talked about Hades, the Old Testament mentioned Sheol.

I don't think sheol was in question, but "hell", which pagan ideas from other religions were incorporated in to so-called "Christian" churches long before we or our great great grandparents were even born , or their great great great grandparents too ?

 

[Joseph77]

For we know that when this tent we live in now is taken down—when we die and leave these bodies—we will have wonderful new bodies in heaven, homes that will be ours forevermore, made for us by God himself and not by human hands.
(2 Corinthians 5:1 TLB)
.

No contradiction with /from/ what I posted.
If we are not in our old bodies, we are in our new bodies.... never like without a body , not floating around like a wraith or wisp as commonly taught in false religions.

 

[Enoch111]

I don't think sheol was in question, but "hell", which pagan ideas from other religions were incorporated in to so-called "Christian" churches long before we or our great great grandparents were even born , or their great great great grandparents too ?

If Jesus spoke about Gehenna, that should be enough to tell you that He was not depending on any pagan concepts. He is the one who created the Lake of Fire. So what you have stated above is nonsensical.

 

[Joseph77]

If Jesus spoke about Gehenna, that should be enough to tell you that He was not depending on any pagan concepts. He is the one who created the Lake of Fire. So what you have stated above is nonsensical.

Show me where I posted that Gehenna was a pagan concept ?
So what you have stated is mythalogical of your own doing ?

 

[Enoch111]

A heretic sounds like this......"yes, i know that Jesus saved me....but now I have to , i have to do...i have to not do......so that i keep myself saved".

You are continuing to spout this rubbish on too many threads. Since it is a lie, you are the liar, not your so-called imaginary heretics. Nobody here believes this nonsense.

 

[Joseph77]

You are continuing to spout this rubbish on too many threads. Since it is a lie, you are the liar, not your so-called imaginary heretics. Nobody here believes this nonsense.

There are too many here and many places not only believing that nonsense , but promoting it, posting it, doing all they can to deceive others , to bring everyone down in destruction....

 

[Enoch111]

Show me where I posted that Gehenna was a pagan concept ? So what you have stated is mythalogical of your own doing ?

What else did you mean by this? "I don't think sheol was in question, but "hell", which pagan ideas from other religions were incorporated in to so-called "Christian" churches long before we or our great great grandparents were even born , or their great great great grandparents too ?"

 

[Joseph77]

What else did you mean by this? "I don't think sheol was in question, but "hell", which pagan ideas from other religions were incorporated in to so-called "Christian" churches long before we or our great great grandparents were even born , or their great great great grandparents too ?"

Do you see "gehenna" there ? I don't.
"hell" , yes, imported as it was and was used too often in meaning from pagan religions, not only allowed, but taught,
instead of gehenna ....

Sheol and gehenna was not in question.

 

[Cooper]

I should perhaps clarify that I am well aware of the many new testament verses and passages that appear to promote a fearful fate for a large majority of mankind. Whether or not I believe such verses and passages at their apparent face value is another matter that I would put aside as not being edifying.

Thankfully, the believer can put it to one side.

 

[Behold]

Just what did bablon or persiia or other countries/ religions say or think or believe hell was before the first century ?

Why did Greece, et al, later incorporate that , other countries beliefs, into Christian teachings ?

Jesus spoke about Hell.
So, if Hell and the Lake of Fire and Revelation 20:11 are not all real, I guess Jesus didn't get the memo.
If you meet Him, explain to Him that when He was talking about it, He was confused.
I'm sure He'll appreciate you helping Him with His incorrect theology.

 

[Joseph77]

What Jesus says, is not what people say.

Better to agree with Jesus.

 

[Behold]

You are continuing to spout this rubbish on too many threads. Since it is a lie, you are the liar, not your so-called imaginary heretics. Nobody here believes this nonsense.

I teach what Paul Teaches.
It comes from Colossians, Ephesians, Romans, and Galatians, mostly, with a small percent of what i teach coming from 1-2 Timothy, and Titus.
If you have issues with what i teach, then your issue is with Paul, but moreso, its with the simple understanding of "justification by faith".
Here i'll prove it to. you.

Explain this, in your own words..

Why does the Blood of Jesus that saves a person, keep them saved"?

 

[Mike Waters]

Can this thread be locked please.
One bigoted contributor in particular has totally soured its content (back to the forum abhorrence that I alluded to in the first para of my OP).