Jesus made an example analogous to Hell and said that the condemned would not get out until every "penny" was paid. Right?
I'm starting to think that the YLT translation is the only one to read
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Jesus made an example analogous to Hell and said that the condemned would not get out until every "penny" was paid. Right?
Matthew 25:46 (WORDS OF JESUS) “These will go away into eternal (aionios) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionios) life.”
COMMENT - What is Jesus contrasting? Eternal punishment and eternal life. Correct?
According to Jesus how long is life? Eternal.
According to Jesus how long is punishment? Eternal.
One can parse Jesus' words or attempt specious, clever word games, but His words are very simple and straightforward and clearly indicate that there are two states of every man ever born, either eternal punishment or eternal life. There is no middle ground. And if one argues that aionios does not mean "eternal" than they are painting themselves into a theological corner, because if eternal punishment is not forever, then eternal life is not forever and we are all in a hopeless situation!
Paul uses aionos to describe the nature of God writing
but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionios) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith. (Ro 16:26)
COMMENT - If aionios does not mean eternal, then one is forced to say from this passage that God will not exist forever, which of course is absolutely absurd. Aionios in this context clearly means eternal, everlasting, forever and ever. Amen!
Paul again uses aionos in a description of one aspect of God writing
Who (GOD) Alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, Whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionios) dominion! Amen. (1 Ti 6:16)
COMMENT - Paul is blessing God and ascribing to Him eternal dominion. Dominion is kratos which refers to inherent strength which displays itself in the rule over others. It follows that if God's kratos is not eternal, at some point He will not have the strength to rule. Again this is clearly not true or otherwise we are all left without any hope of eternal life. Again, it is clear that aionios in this context means eternal, everlasting, forever, without end!
You see how you veer off?
We all make mistakes, and we all don't know it all, but to remain teachable is special.
J.
I know where you are going with this, and this is not rightly cutting straight the scriptures brother.
J.
...like I have said, I know where you are going with this, and this is not rightly cutting straight the D'var of YHVH, the infallible scriptures which cannot be broken.
Go back to the answers already given friend.
J.
Do you read verses in context?
2Sa_14:14 For we must needs die, and [are] as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect [any] person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.
Ver. 14. For we must needs die.] This is her second argument, as she had them ready coined to her hand both for matter and form, and put into her mouth by Joab, and it is this, It is appointed for all men once to die: thou art mortal, though a king; Amnon is dead already and past recovery, as water spilt upon the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Absalom is dead in law, and if he continue in exile, likely enough to die with sorrow; or if he be cut off for his fratricide, what wilt thou do for a fit successor? and what will become of the public welfare? will not all go to wreck and ruin? will not our coal, yet alive, be quite quenched? why then shouldst thou be so sharp set against thy son Absalom?
Neither doth God respect any person.] But whether king or captives, he must die; we all carry our precious souls as precious water in a brittle glass, or as a candle in a paper lantern, soon puffed out. It is but reason therefore that thou bethink thee of a successor, and so provide for the public. The thought of death is terrible to great ones. Queen Elizabeth could not endure to hear of it. She frowned upon a good bishop for imminding her of her great age in a sermon, and of the climacteric year (age 63) of her life, which happened at that time, and put him to some trouble. But this woman of Tekoah was upon a pleasing subject, and might say anything. Some render this text thus, Neque vero solet Deus vitam eripere, God is not wont to take away life from those that have forfeited it - for then what had become of thee for the slaughter of Uriah? {a} - Mavult enim parcere supplicibus quam sontes plectere; he delighteth not in the death of a sinner, but deviseth means how to save such: and will not you, sir, do the like? Will it not be your office and honour to express God to the world, since you represent his person?
{a} Regem ad recordationem Uriae non nisi timide et tecte revocat. - Castal.
Outline
Second Samuel begins partway through the section dealing with a battle with the Philistines, the death
of Saul, and increasing power of David (1 Sam. 27:1—2 Sam. 4:12).
1. The Birth and Early Ministry of Samuel (1 Sam. 1:1—7:17)
1. Hannah’s Prayer and Samuel’s Birth (1 Sam. 1:1—2:11)
2. The Lord’s Judgment upon Eli’s Household (1 Sam. 2:12–36)
3. The Call of Samuel to Prophetic Ministry (1 Sam. 3:1—4:1)
4. The Departure and Return of the Glory (1 Sam. 4:1—7:1)
5. Israel’s Return to the Lord through Samuel (1 Sam. 7:2–17)
2. The Rise and Rejection of King Saul (1 Sam. 8:1—15:35)
1. Israel’s Rejection of the Lord as King (1 Sam. 8:1–22)
2. God’s Sovereign Selection of a King (1 Sam. 9:1—10:27)
3. Saul’s Promising Start (1 Sam. 11:1–15)
4. Samuel’s Integrity and Exhortation to Israel (1 Sam. 12:1–25)
5. Saul’s Rebellion and Jonathan’s Faith (1 Sam. 13:1—15:35)
3. The Victories and Persecution of David (1 Sam. 16:1—26:25)
1. David’s Anointing as King and Enlisting to Serve Saul (1 Sam. 16:1–23)
2. Saul’s Failure and David’s Victory by Faith (1 Sam. 17:1–54)
3. Saul’s Jealousy and Jonathan’s Loyalty to David (1 Sam. 17:55—20:42)
4. David’s Flight from Saul into the Wilderness (1 Sam. 21:1—26:25)
4. The End of Saul and Rise of King David (1 Sam. 27:1—2 Sam. 4:12)
1. David’s Deceptive Sojourn with Achish (1 Sam. 27:1—28:2)
2. Saul’s Terror and Consulting a Witch (1 Sam. 28:3–25)
3. David’s Release from Achish and War with Amalek (1 Sam. 29:1—30:31)
4. The Deaths of Saul and His Sons (1 Sam. 31:1–13)
5. David’s Lamentation over Saul and Jonathan (2 Sam. 1:1–27)
6. David, King of Judah, against Ish-bosheth, King of Israel (2 Sam. 2:1—4:12)
5. The Triumphant Reign of David over All Israel (2 Sam. 5:1—10:19)
1. The Establishment of David’s Kingdom (2 Sam. 5:1–25)
2. The Bringing of the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem (2 Sam. 6:1–23)
3. The Lord’s Covenant with David (2 Sam. 7:1–29)
4. The Power, Justice, and Mercy of King David (2 Sam. 8:1—10:19)
6. The Crimes and Troubles of David and His Household (2 Sam. 11:1—20:26)
1. David’s Adultery, Murder, and Repentance (2 Sam. 11:1—12:31)
2. Amnon’s Incest and Absalom’s Revenge (2 Sam. 13:1—14:33)
3. Absalom’s Rebellion against David (2 Sam. 15:1—17:29)
4. Absalom’s Death and David’s Restoration (2 Sam. 18:1—19:40)
5. The Rebellion of Sheba against David (2 Sam. 19:41—20:26)
7. The Conclusion of David’s Reign (2 Sam. 21:1—24:25)
1. Vengeance for the Gibeonites on Saul’s Family (2 Sam. 21:1–14)
2. War between the Philistines and an Aging David (2 Sam. 21:15–22)
3. The Song of David to the Lord (2 Sam. 22:1–51)
4. David’s Last Words (2 Sam. 23:1–7)
5. David’s Mighty Men (2 Sam. 23:8–39)
6. The Tragic Census of Israel (2 Sam. 24:1–25)
Yes?
You wish to persuade but are unwilling to be persuaded yourself, even when presented with scripture. You are married to the false teaching that God tortures his creation FOREVER. It saddens me to know that my fellow believers have such a low opinion of our all-powerful, all-loving, creator. Take care and God bless you.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Let us also show patrick what happens to those who ADD TOO or TAKE from that book . YES indeed my friend
its a very serious and deadly thing to do so . Yes indeed .
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Do you see the 3 verses now?
Or are you still pretending only your verses are to be allowed on the table for discussion?
I’m saying that if want to have this doctrinal discussion, you should open a thread on that topic.
This thread seems to be about the IDOLATRY of translations.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Sorry for the length.
This is a key verse that has been a stumbling block for many. What people don't understand is that "aionios" has variable meanings. When applied to God and His spiritual realm, it means eternal. But this word is also used to describe temporal reality, when we see it's meaning is also temporal as in ages, lifetimes, generations, epoch. I think the KJV translators had it right. They used "everlasting" when referring to damnation and then "eternal" referring to our salvation. Everlasting in this case really means age-lasting or age-during as YLT said. Hell, the Lake of Fire, ( is more of an event at the end of time - 2 Peter 3:10), and is different than Hades (Sheol), which will be thrown into the Lake of Fire with Death and destroyed.
The concept of an eternal Hell actually keeps many people away from Christ. People have claimed, "I can't believe in a God who would create an eternal torture chamber!" It's always bothered me and doesn't make sense. It is a serious allegation against the justice of God that must be examined thoroughly. It is a traditional doctrine which I am bumping up against but so be it.
Eternity seems too severe a punishment for a mere 80 years or so of sinning. Heck some people live much shorter lives. I've heard the argument, "When you have offended an eternal God, an eterna punishment must be given." Huh? There is nothing God can't do, but I think sustaining a judgment of eternal torment for billions of screaming souls that He created may be difficult for Him. How does this glorify Him? This is not characteristic of God's nature as we've seen in Jesus.
According to the Bible history, we have seen God's judgments and they have been just, proportionate to the sin and temporal for a time. The Jews were enslaved for 400 years, then 40 years of roaming in the desert, many wars won and lost, towns destroyed, all for a purpose.
One principle we can all relate to that God has designed into our everyday life is as follows: "... for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap." If you sow evil, you get it back ... but forever? Do we put a child in prison for life for stealing a candy bar, because that what eternal damnation sounds like to me, it is out of whack. Justice requires different degrees of punishment and different lengths of time as well - in proportion to the severity of sins committed. We can actually store up wrath during our lives of sin, but how can one store up eternal wrath?
Physical life is temporal. Spiritual life in Christ is eternal. "Eternity" is an English word which means without beginning and without end. "In Isaiah 57:15, the Hebrew word for eternity (transliterated - ad) means continued duration, always or perpetually. It is the only time it is used to mean eternity in the Old Testament. It is translated forty-one times as ever; twice as everlasting; once as end; once as old; once as evermore; and once as perpetually." [Strongs] God inhabits eternity! The word eternal or eternity should only be used when referring to God or His domain, His Word, our salvation ( which is actually not eternal in the real sense of the word sonce we haf a beginning).
The transliterated Hebrew word "ad" is translated three different ways in this verse: "He stood, and measured the earth: He beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow; His ways are everlasting." Hab.3:6 NKJV Are mountains everlasting? No, they are age-lasting or at most last until God destroys the first earth. Are hills perpetual? No. in other versions eternal is used. His ways are eternal, but mountains aren't.
Forever and ever are English terms. They are translated from the Hebrew word, owlam and the Greek word aion. They usually mean any period of time. Mountains last for an age or ages and the age of the earth is finite.
Here are some scripture that use anionios that actually point forward into eternity:
1 John 5:11
2 Corinthians 4:18
Romans 1:25
Romans 11:36
Ephesians 3:11
1 Peter 1:25
Matthew 6:13
Luke 1:33
John 6:51
Galatians 1:4-5
Hebrews 13:8
Here are scriptures using the same words that reflect temporal meanings:
1 Corinthians 2:6; 10:11
Ephesians 1:21
Ephesians 2:7
Ephesians 3:9
John 13:8
Genesis 13:15
Exodus 12:17; 27:20-21
Here is the key verse that should be scrutinized:
Matthew 25:46
KJV - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal;." (I think these translators understood that everlasting did not mean eternal, otherwise why didn't they use the same word?)
NASB and NIV use eternal for both
YLT - "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during." (He avoided the word eternal, and stating both happening during this age, but still doesn't differentiate between temporal and eternal realms)
Weymouth New Testamen - "And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages." (Still not clear about how long.)
"Punish" comes from the Greek word, kolasis or kolasin, which means "cutting off". So a better translation would be, age-during cutting off.
"Perish" and "destroy" are also key words to examine. They mean to cause cessation of being; utterly ruin; consume; demolish; to put an end to; to kill.
>> One cannot destroy something or someone over and over without end. That would be an indestructible destruction or imperishable perishing. No, when the souls are destroyed, killed, both body and soul quickly.
Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. Matthew 10:28 WEB
God destroys both body and soul in the Lake of Fire. I reflect on a scene in the Lord of the Rings that can give us a visual idea of this destruction, when Gollum falls into the Volcano (lake of fire).
'
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Yes, but to know which form of the Greek preposition to use, one must know the construct, and all them other nifty rules of grammar to determine which is best use in English.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
been there and done that. Now I dust them off when I need them.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
The ESV makes more sense to me, but since I don't understand Greek, I don't know which is the more accurate.
Nothing wrong with that, I have a number of translations to compare, while the KJV is my primary bible.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
I like KJV, but some of its language is archaic. I was given a Revised Standard Version by my church when I was a boy - I still use that. But the RSV is getting hard to find, so my second choice might be the New King James Version (I actually bought one, since my RSV is getting so beat up).
Jude 7 states that
"7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."
Is the fire which overtook Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? No. was it an eternal fire. Yes. It completely consumed those cities for eternity.They are not coming back. That is what the Bible means by use of the word eternal.
Man is not immortal--only God is.
1 Timothy 6:16, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
Immortality is a gift.
If you read John 3:16"... whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." What is the reward for belief? Eternal life.
If those that believe will not perish, so those who do not believe will perish--not be tortured forever.
Also in the Opening Post your YLT Bible verse swaps out "worlds" for "ages"
Hebrews 1:1-2 ESV vs. YLT
ESV
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
YLT
In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets,in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages
There is a huge difference in those two words. The 2nd takes away the creative power of Christ who created the worlds as well.
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