Imputation is based on the Old Testament

[Episkopos]

Confusion isn't light. The carnal mind is enmity with God. If we keep relying on that to try to resolve what appears to the natural man to be contradictory it will for sure lead us astray.

May I suggest looking to other authors of the bible and Jesus, who IS the truth...and not just a bad reading of Paul? Paul was only interested in speaking about the higher walk...the Promised Land walk....which so few understand.

The bible wasn't written for intellectuals and the intellect, it was written to be received by little children with the mind of Christ.

We are not to be as children in understanding. I cite Paul here...as he seems to be influential...sort of...unless he says something that people don't like.

1 Cor. 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

Do you understand the difference here? I am not an intellectual. But I find it ironic that if I speak as to children then I get accused of being too high-minded. The flesh cannot be given instruction...it will defend its rights. Rather, I expect that people need to know what they are talking about and have done their due diligence to make sure what they say is backed up by the bible in every respect.

Not many of us were wise in accordance with the world's way when we came to faith. God didn't write His word for the "wise and learned" but for those who would receive it like a child. I and many others see no contradiction between Jesus and Paul because the true light of the Holy Spirit helps us to see. Too much splicing and dicing of God's word renders it down into a hash of a mess, it dismantles and disintegrates it to the point of losing it's essence of SIMPLE truth.

This is backward. With much counsel we are to make war. Having only one frame of reference makes for huge miscalculations. So your problem can be fixed by MORE knowledge...not less.

My people perish for lack of knowledge.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Jer. 32:33 And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction.

 

[Episkopos]

The simplicity of the gospel is all there is brother, you are complicating things here.

The simple minded cannot receive instruction. They are wise to do evil but of righteousness they know not. You are not understanding the verse you are alluding to. The word "simplicity" has to do with focus...not how easy it is.

Do you believe the bible is authoritive? If so, then, please use it properly.

 

[Lizbeth]

May I suggest looking to other authors of the bible and Jesus, who IS the truth...and not just a bad reading of Paul? Paul was only interested in speaking about the higher walk...the Promised Land walk....which so few understand.



We are not to be as children in understanding. I cite Paul here...as he seems to be influential...sort of...unless he says something that people don't like.

1 Cor. 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

Do you understand the difference here? I am not an intellectual. But I find it ironic that if I speak as to children then I get accused of being too high-minded. The flesh cannot be given instruction...it will defend its rights. Rather, I expect that people need to know what they are talking about and have done their due diligence to make sure what they say is backed up by the bible in every respect.



This is backward. With much counsel we are to make war. Having only one frame of reference makes for huge miscalculations. So your problem can be fixed by MORE knowledge...not less.

My people perish for lack of knowledge.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Jer. 32:33 And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction.. There's no point in discussing this further because it's yet again evident in your post that you haven't been taking in what I and others been saying and are making assumptions about people that aren't true.

There's no point in discussing this with you further because once again it's evident by your response that you haven't been hearing what I and others have been saying and thus are making wrong assumptions about us.

I'm not calling you high minded, just saying you're splicing and dicing everything far too finely.

 

[Johann]

The simple minded cannot receive instruction. They are wise to do evil but of righteousness they know not. You are not understanding the verse you are alluding to. The word "simplicity" has to do with focus...not how easy it is.

Do you believe the bible is authoritive? If so, then, please use it properly.

Brother, you may try and be sarcastic with the others, especially the sisters, but don't try that one on me.

Simplicity has nothing to do with "focus"
ἁπλότης
haplótēs; gen. haplótētōs, fem. noun from haplóos contracted haploús (G573), single, not having an ulterior or double motive. Simplicity, purity, sincerity, faithfulness, plenitude (Rom_12:8; Sept.: 2Sa_15:11; Pro_19:1). In the NT used only in a moral sense as the opposite of duplicity meaning sincerity, faithfulness toward others, manifest in helpfulness and giving assistance to others. Equivalent to being faithful and benevolent. Although in some portions (2Co_8:2; 2Co_9:11, 2Co_9:13) translated liberality or bountifulness, it is not exactly so. It is rather faithful benevolence out of proper motivation. Eph_6:5, "in singleness of your heart" means in sincerity; Col_3:22; Sept.: 1Ch_29:17. In 2Co_11:3, "the simplicity that is in Christ" means frankness, integrity, fidelity.

Syn.: aphelótēs (G858), simplicity, singleness; eulogía (G2129), a blessing, indicating abundance; cháris (G5485), grace, with the meaning of bounty; hadrótēs (G100), fatness, indicating abundance; perisseía (G4050), an exceeding measure; huperbolḗ (G5236), beyond measure.

Ant.: apátē (G539), deceit or deceitfulness; dólos (G1388), guile; plánē (G4106), error, wandering, deceit; panourgía (G3834), craftiness.

Not easy?
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


Mat 11:29 Take My yoke upon you and learn of Me, for I am gentle (meek) and humble (lowly) in heart, and you will find rest (relief and ease and refreshment and recreation and blessed quiet) for your souls. [Jer_6:16]
Mat 11:30 For My yoke is wholesome (useful, good--not harsh, hard, sharp, or pressing, but comfortable, gracious, and pleasant), and My burden is light and easy to be borne.
AMP.

Mat 11:29 Take my ol (yoke) upon you and learn from me, for I am anav (humble) and have shiflut (lowliness) in lev (heart), and you will find menuchah (rest, security [RUTH 1:9]) for your nefashot (souls, YIRMEYAH 6:16].
Mat 11:30 For my [Moshiach’s] ol (yoke) is easy and my burden is light. [See Mt 23:4]
OJB.

Keep on studying the doctrine of hagiosune, for your doctrine is off, sorry for being so blunt with you.

And do make an attempt to adhere to biblical terminologies, maybe you will find your "focus" Episkopolos....the yoke of Christ is not harsh, sharp or pressing

Jas 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
Jas 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jas 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jas 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Jas 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.


Get that?
J.

 

[Johann]

We are not to be as children in understanding. I cite Paul here...as he seems to be influential...sort of...unless he says something that people don't like.

1 Cor. 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Co 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
1Co 14:17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

..to put it in context for you, what have glossalia to do with a "higher walk?"

I am still trying to find "higher walk/peripateuo/dereck" in the KJV.

 

[Episkopos]

There's no point in discussing this with you further because once again it's evident by your response that you haven't been hearing what I and others have been saying and thus are making wrong assumptions about us.

How can you say that when I can read what you post? You believe that God pretends, or sees something that's not there. Of course, God sees the future. But that doesn't mean we do. Did God not see that most of the Israelites would perish in the wilderness? If so, then why was He so upset with them?

The same thing goes for the Gentiles who were grafted in in their place.

Your position is that we Gentiles are somehow more special than the Jews who came before us....because we have been given a spiritual birth. But we will also be held to a higher standard. You are NOT seeing that.

You say I don't understand you as if you understood what I'm saying! That is far more likely the case...because you are unable to support your scheme beyond an indoctrination into Pauline statements that have been twisted away from their meaning.

Why don't you cite Jesus? Is He also for an assumed righteousness? Or does Jesus say that there is nothing covered that will not be exposed?

You like reading what Paul says? OK It is Paul that warns people that they can be cut off as easily as the Jews were...and that those who twist his words should be "anathema". So on that day it will be Paul who stands up to reject all the rich Western believers who have destroyed his words and intentions. The reaction will be tears..and a lot of anger (gnashing of teeth).

I'm making sure that that anger cannot be legitimately laid at my feet. I warn others.

I'm not calling you high minded, just saying you're splicing and dicing everything far too finely.

It's called rightly dividing the word. No one is forcing you to produce ideas that are beyond your abilities. If you can't use the bible in a way that brings more light on the truth (besides Paul) then please feel free to go to other threads.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

In the OT we read that Abraham was imputed (attributed) with having righteousness by faith. We read...​

Gen. 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

What kind of righteousness was that? It was human righteousness. Abraham grasped that God could do anything...like a child would. He did what was possible for men to do in their own strength.



Another example of this same kind (human kind) of righteousness is shown to us with Phinehas. He was was justified by WORKS...that he did in his own strength. Again, same level of righteousness.

“Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed.” “And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.” Ps. 106: 30, 31

Neither of these examples points to grace. God is merely counting righteousness to those who have shown their own initiative towards right doing.

​

The confusion comes by misunderstanding Paul. ​

​

​

Romans 4:22-25 KJV​

And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; but for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.

People are taught to self-justify based on what only God can do in the future. An inheritance is only worth something if we are faithful till the end. In the meantime we are to move on into the high calling in Christ...to enter into Christ now. ​

So we see we can be justified both by faith AND by works.

But Paul only speaks of faith because it is scaleable into the faith OF Christ.

So we can be justified in our own faith (and works). BUT.....we can only enter into Christ by faith. No amount of works lets us into resurrection life in the here and now. To walk in His salvation we must enter into Him by faith. And the faith to do that is a gift. The gift of faith.



Gal. 3:22 "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."


Faith is given to those who already believe. In Christ we go from faith to faith...from our level of faith to His. On the holiness scale ALL are missing the mark. But the faith OF Christ (His faith not ours) is given (as a gift) to those who have already believed (with their human faith).

So in the NT we have 2 levels of faith to consider. The human faith is as good as Abrahams' in that it is for an inheritance on judgment day. But there is the faith OF Christ to consider...which we apprehend by entering personally into Him to walk as He walked.

Acts 26:18 "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness (actually "freedom") of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

Where is the faith that sanctifies us found? It is found only by entering INTO Christ. This is above the justification of men based on human faith and works. This is a supernatural faith that causes us to walk in Zion as Jesus walked. Even the smallest amount of this faith can move mountains. It translates us into the kingdom of His dear Son...right now!

The Old Testament saints and prophets were imputed with Christ's righteousness instantly when Christ died. As His sacrifice was imputed to us as if we traveled back in time and died with Him on the cross, so it was also imputed to all the faithful before Him. They had faith in God and looked forward to the promised coming Messiah and lived by that faith.

 

[Episkopos]

The Old Testament saints and prophets were imputed with Christ's righteousness instantly when Christ died. As His sacrifice was imputed to us as if we traveled back in time and died with Him on the cross, so it was also imputed to all the faithful before Him. They had faith in God and looked forward to the promised coming Messiah and lived by that faith.

Another propaganda victim. Where do you all come from?

No one is imputed "with" not even in the OT. The correct way to use the English language is to say..."imputed "to". So you first need a thesaurus...and THEN do a bible study. And you are simply expressing a human opinion...that sounds religious...but is speculation....and that has no biblical support.

Only God decides on whom the sacrifice of Christ is to be efficacious for.

The bible records Jesus' words. And these are important. He says that of all people born of women...that would include all human beings....that John the Baptist was the greatest of all.

Matt. 11:11 “Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.”

What could that mean? Could it mean that the New Covenant is greater than the Old? How? Could it be that walking in resurrection life is greater than walking in one's own strength...no matter how great that person is?

So then it is impossible that Jesus would consider Old Testament people to be as righteous as He is, since even the least in the kingdom is greater than the greatest OT saint.

What is being missed here is scale. But when people pretend too much, reality is not so easily grasped.


The Old Testament saints were judged by THEIR righteousness. Notice this...

Ez. 14:14 "Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD."

BTW Ezekiel is found in the Old Testament...and the prophets were used in the early church for doctrine, reproof and instruction in righteousness. (Paul said that! )

Regardless...we will not be judged by Christ's righteousness but our own. Not His works...but our works...of what kind they are. Jesus Christ is not on trial...we are. But so few seem to get that.

 

[Lizbeth]

Your position is that we Gentiles are somehow more special than the Jews who came before us....because we have been given a spiritual birth. But we will also be held to a higher standard. You are NOT seeing that.

Another couple of wrong assumption there brother.

Wish we could stop bickering and "go on to perfection" sometime!

 

[Mr E]

At some point the question has to be asked—

Where are the figs?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

@Episkopos
You kind of hurt my feelings. I was hoping you would comment on post 181. I was wondering what your input would be on it? No comment makes me feel as if that is your response…that it deserved no response.

Oh wow! I just saw that you did respond. yesterday. I didn’t ever see an alert.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Man is created in God's image...in the inner man. It is possible to rally to God (from that place) by humbling ourselves in heartfelt surrender. That is within our power. We can STOP what we are doing at any time, and trust the Lord.

Question and quote of why I have a question there. You said “from the place”
(I’m assuming the place you mean is from the inner man, is that assuming too much?) that by humbling ourselves in heartfelt surrender. You said this is withIN our power. That we can STOP and surrender, be humble to trust in the Lord? And that is within our power to be humble?

A few quotes where I said makes me question
Colossians 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

^maybe someone else has posted this verse. To me that says directly to not be beguiled by men of your reward of a voluntary humility. Now I could read that two ways …one is the first and immediate way I’ve read it which is to not let men vainly puffed up; try to convince you there is some reward in a voluntarily humility. But there is second which comes to mind now; which could be don’t let men rob (beguile) you of a voluntary humility. But was worshipping of angels included with a voluntary humility intruding on the unseen puffed up by a fleshly mind? I have to ask whose power is being discussed Gods power or Mens power?

Which is correct…I have no idea now but only that I also have to take into consideration where Paul said they were puffed up and that if he came to them…He feared that His God might humble him before them all that he might bewail those who had sinned and had still not repented. I can somewhat see your point in those not yet humbled but were puffed up. but why did Paul say “My God will humble me in your midst”? I’m maybe assuming too much but it seems they said they were humble but by their own strength and had yet to submit to God. There is a difference demonstrated before them in Paul “that I be humbled by My God before you all”
…the counterfeit “We are humble” while “vainly puffed up”… to …”My God will humble me before you all.”


you said “To some degree we can...by faith. Faith is that quality that makes us, outside of God's presence,...still do what is pleasing to Him. Without faith it is impossible to PLEASE God.”
How can one have faith outside of God? Why would one be outside of God if they have faith in God?

No. It is God that justifies. He decides who has faith and who doesn't. What I'm bringing light to is the tradition of men to justify themselves based on bible reading. Our beliefs about God and ourselves...are NOT faith. When God accepts our faith He translates us into His kingdom realm. That is what the gospel is about. That is what the kingdom walk is about.

Does that mean we can't be saved if we are not walking like Jesus? No. It simply means that the present salvation is the liberation of Christ from ALL sin. The future judgment will show God having mercy on many...as they INHERIT salvation at THAT time.

There is much confusion in religious circles these days that confuses the power of God with an eternal inheritance.

Those who walk by faith please God. Yet God accepts all who fear Him and do what is right.

There is both a goodness and a severity with God. It all depends how we walk...in religious arrogance? Or humility?

Peace

“Those with faith please God”
Again, without the Spirit of God how can one have faith which is a fruit of the a Spirit of God ….where even when not in His presence, they please God by Faith? I get the debate of “Faith”
And how all have a measure of faith. But I’m asking not about faith that is dead but faith that is Alive unto God. how is Faith Alive unto God if that Faith which is Alive is without God?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Another propaganda victim. Where do uoi all come from?

We come from a Trinitarian Christian view. 98% of Christians are cut from the same cloth and fed somewhat different teachings then what you present.

He says that of all people born of women...that would include all human beings....that John the Baptist was the greatest of all.

True, because he prepared the way for the Messiah and introduced Him. All the others prophesied about Him.

Regardless...we will not be judged by Christ's righteousness but our own. Not His works...but our works...of what kind they are

No, we are forgiven our sins and washed by His blood. HE DID THE WORK. IT WAS RIGHTEOUS and so we put on that cloak of His righteousness. Our own righteousness was tainted. We were all like dirty rags.
Our works _ after we are saved _ will be judged and we will receive rewards for them. But really, the Holy Spirit works through us, He gets all the credit.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

@VictoryinJesus,
Here are a few more translations. Might help.

NIV : Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you.
NLT: Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels, saying they have had visions about these things.
BSB: Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen
NASB: Take care that no one keeps defrauding you of your prize by delighting in humility and the worship of the angels,

 

[Mr E]

@Episkopos
You kind of hurt my feelings. I was hoping you would comment on post 181. I was wondering what your input would be on it? No comment makes me feel as if that is your response…that it deserved no response.

Oh wow! I just saw that you did respond. yesterday. I didn’t ever see an alert.

That’s because he only quotes people who pat him on the head. It’s a pride thing.

 

[Episkopos]

We come from a Trinitarian Christian view. 98% of Christians are cut from the same cloth and fed somewhat different teachings then what you present.

Answering @Ronald David Bruno

Only Protestants buy into the imputed thing. It was an invention of Luther. Catholics believe in "imparted" righteousness...which is biblical. And orthodox believers believe in a real oneness with God...not just an assumed righteousness. So then you are in the minority actually.

No, we are forgiven our sins and washed by His blood. HE DID THE WORK. IT WAS RIGHTEOUS and so we put on that cloak of His righteousness.

When you are the one putting on something...it is self at work. So then because of what you have read in the bible you think it gives you license to impute God's righteousness to yourself. That's how the scheme goes, sorry to say. That is the "great delusion" that Paul speaks of. It's all the flesh masquerading as something it is not...holy. It's an assumed righteousness...a pretend righteousness.

Righteous is as righteous does. Those who have God's righteousness on them perform mighty wonders and walk in resurrection life...without sin. In Him is no sin.

The rest is just pretend.

Our own righteousness was tainted. We were all like dirty rags.

Compared with God, we are dirty and weak. Jesus said, without Me you can do nothing. Nothing? Nothing of eternal benefit.

The same goes for human righteousness. God recognizes human righteousness IF the person is humble and fears the Lord.

God can have mercy on people. Actually, by pretending to have God's righteousness on us when we do not...we are inviting judgment on the day of wrath. You won't hear that by sitting in a pew.

Our works _ after we are saved _ will be judged and we will receive rewards for them. But really, the Holy Spirit works through us, He gets all the credit.

Everybody on earth will be judged by their works. The difference is that believers will not be judged with the world. Have you heard of the Bema judgment? Each believer will be judged face-to-face. Those who have done well will receive a reward...and those who lived in a lie...will be cast into outer darkness. There will be weeping and anger.

God is looking for an eternal kind of fruit.

People still sin in their own righteousness. Those who say that they continue to sin while claiming to be covered by God's righteousness...who misrepresent God and His ways...will be cast out.

Is Christ a minister of sin? God forbid!

 

[Episkopos]

@Episkopos
You kind of hurt my feelings. I was hoping you would comment on post 181. I was wondering what your input would be on it? No comment makes me feel as if that is your response…that it deserved no response.

Oh wow! I just saw that you did respond. yesterday. I didn’t ever see an alert.

This new forum structure doesn't give out many notifications. I only get about 1/3 of the notifications from what people post on my threads. It's a forum thing....not me ignoring you. It was not intended on my part!

 

[Episkopos]

That’s because he only quotes people who pat him on the head. It’s a pride thing.

Mr. Ego rides again! We need dissenters who play the role of the devil's advocate...it makes things more interesting. Imagine everyone being in agreement? Boring, right?

 

[Episkopos]

Question and quote of why I have a question there. You said “from the place”
(I’m assuming the place you mean is from the inner man, is that assuming too much?) that by humbling ourselves in heartfelt surrender. You said this is withIN our power. That we can STOP and surrender, be humble to trust in the Lord? And that is within our power to be humble?

Answer to @VictoryinJesus


It is our duty to be humble. It is an important part of what justifies us with God. God gives grace..........to the humble. And He resists the proud! Especially if they claim to be walking around in His righteousness while they commit every iniquity the flesh can come up with.

The gospel is meant only for the meek...the humble and the poor. The rich have hijacked the gospel and invented a make-believe righteousness that covers up their sins...so they can continue to live according to the flesh...and then call that grace. But judgment is coming.

A few quotes where I said makes me question
Colossians 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

false humility....that's what hypocrites respect...

^maybe someone else has posted this verse. To me that says directly to not be beguiled by men of your reward of a voluntary humility. Now I could read that two ways …one is the first and immediate way I’ve read it which is to not let men vainly puffed up; try to convince you there is some reward in a voluntarily humility. But there is second which comes to mind now; which could be don’t let men rob (beguile) you of a voluntary humility. But was worshipping of angels included with a voluntary humility intruding on the unseen puffed up by a fleshly mind? I have to ask whose power is being discussed Gods power or Mens power?

Again a false humility goes with an assumed righteousness. The Pharisees considered themselves to be MORE righteous because of their works. Modern Pharisees believe they are as righteous as God for merely adopting a certain belief about God. So these are even worse.

Which is correct…I have no idea now but only that I also have to take into consideration where Paul said they were puffed up and that if he came to them…He feared that His God might humble him before them all that he might bewail those who had sinned and had still not repented. I can somewhat see your point in those not yet humbled but were puffed up. but why did Paul say “My God will humble me in your midst”? I’m maybe assuming too much but it seems they said they were humble but by their own strength and had yet to submit to God. There is a difference demonstrated before them in Paul “that I be humbled by My God before you all”
…the counterfeit “We are humble” while “vainly puffed up”… to …”My God will humble me before you all.”

God has no favourites. If you commit the crime, you do the time, so to speak.

you said “To some degree we can...by faith. Faith is that quality that makes us, outside of God's presence,...still do what is pleasing to Him. Without faith it is impossible to PLEASE God.”
How can one have faith outside of God? Why would one be outside of God if they have faith in God?

Our faith is like a heaving line that we cast on the Lord...until God catches it and then attaches HIS towing cable to it. Then we are under HIS power.

“Those with faith please God”
Again, without the Spirit of God how can one have faith which is a fruit of the a Spirit of God ….where even when not in His presence, they please God by Faith? I get the debate of “Faith”
And how all have a measure of faith. But I’m asking not about faith that is dead but faith that is Alive unto God. how is Faith Alive unto God if that Faith which is Alive is without God?

How we spend our measure of faith is up to us. There is no dead faith...just dead works. And people will confuse faith with beliefs. The demons believe and tremble. So on the belief front...the demons surpass us. But not so of faith.

God decides when our faith becomes the faith OF Christ. See my analogy about the heaving line and the towing cable.

Peace

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The passage that is misunderstood and so often used to virtue signal false humility is this one:
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down,
that the mountains would tremble before you!
2 As when fire sets twigs ablaze
and causes water to boil,
come down to make your nameknown to your enemies
and cause the nations to quakebefore you!
3 For when you did awesome things that we did not expect,
you came down, and the mountains trembled before you.
4 Since ancient times no one has heard,
no ear has perceived,
no eye has seen any God besides you,
who acts on behalf of those who wait for him.
5 You come to the help of those who gladly do right,
who remember your ways.
But when we continued to sin against them,
you were angry.
How then can we be saved?
6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
7 No one calls on your name
or strives to lay hold of you;
for you have hidden your face from us
and have given us over to our sins.