Imputation is based on the Old Testament

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Episkopos

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Says you.

The idea that Christians have a burden to study foreign languages is nonsense and nowhere in the Bible.
You are too funny!

The Bible was written in the language it was conveying the thoughts in. Where does it say that rich spoiled Westerners don't have to love God's words enough to read them properly?

David said...O Lord...how I love your instruction...

Instead we might say...O King James how I love your translation.

And besides, I teach the word....so I better know what was written. For those who think they know something, but are dilettantes..and are AGAINST knowledge....they should NOT try to correct those who understand more than they do.

See the lack of humility?...look in the mirror at your audacity to criticize knowledge, understanding and wisdom...based on how you feel about it...with your ego.


Obviously, we will have to agree to disagree about the very basics of our shared faith.
Shared faith? As long as you believe in yourself the way you do...I cannot agree with anything you do.


<sigh> You are lost.


Yes. Yes you did say that we are born again into a desert. The type of desert was a walk. Evidently, you are doubling down on the indefensible.

The phrase unsearchable riches of Christ comes from Ephesians 3:8–9. It says nothing about the desert, the desert walk. Unsearchable Riches. Desert. The exact opposite of the word of God. THE EXACT OPPOSITE.
OK...enjoy your best life now...
 

Episkopos

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Whether the ego is complaining about a challenge to an assumed righteousness on God's level...or used for an attack on the rightness of what I teach as being too "mystical" or too "God-complexy" ....I still hold out hope that some will read this thread to some benefit. :)

The real issue is about taking a lower stance when it comes to thinking we are righteous. Only self-righteous people believe they are righteous. The righteous don't consider they are righteous...they are simply trying to do what is right...within their own abilities and understanding.

The higher righteousness does the same...but by DIVINE power. The saint doesn't consider himself/herself as righteous because they KNOW that it is God at work through them...not themselves. As Paul said...no longer I. but Christ.

But that walk in the higher realm of the Spirit...which should be understood...is NOT understood, as is evidenced by the responses. People have suffered under a religious conditioning so that people assume their own level of righteousness is God's.

So there is an error in scale!


People no longer understand the cost of making the kind of steps we read about in the bible. It's like looking at a map of the world and saying...it's not far to Japan...look I just have to take a few steps with my fingers. But getting there in reality takes more than just letting your fingers do the walking! ;)
 

Lizbeth

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An inside work of God...yes. And now there is a template of Christ in our hearts that we are to go to God for to be filled. We are to be conformed to Christ in the inner man.
As long as that template "IS" CHRIST IN US, and not just a kind of facsimile. We follow the same pattern as Jesus.....born again as a babe that need to grow to adulthood. The bible refers to it like a seed that grows. One man plants the seed, others water it. Or it is also likened to a conception that needs to develop until fully formed and born....that which was conceived in Mary was of the Holy Spirit....Paul praying again that Christ be formed in them.
 
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Episkopos

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As long as that template "IS" CHRIST IN US, and not just a kind of facsimile. We follow the same pattern as Jesus.....born again as a babe that need to grow to adulthood. The bible refers to it like a seed that grows. One man plants the seed, others water it. Or it is also likened to a conception that needs to develop until fully formed and born....that which was conceived in Mary was of the Holy Spirit....Paul praying again that Christ be formed in them.
Sure...but you are assuming that the template is enough to fill itself. The template is there as a vessel in shape of Christ...but we still need to be filled up....filled with the Spirit.

And we are not learning as Jesus did. Jesus was learning how to be human. We are being readied to carry the Divine. Jesus needed temporal wisdom and patience. We need faith and divine wisdom to proceed. So we are coming at things from opposite ends. We do NOT have what it takes to be like Jesus...we need to go to God for the full measure of grace at the throne of grace...when we are ready.

Without the anointing....the covering of God's righteousness (which is NOT a common thing or something to be assumed) we will not experience the extent of what is possible in Christ. As we are covered, the life from within is able to come out. ...overflowing life into the world.

Having Christ in us......is not the same as being IN Christ.

One is by an initial grace .....and the other by a full measure of grace that costs us everything...the pearl of great price.

You know what I teach...I don't understand why you can't articulate it...a mental block?

I'm not saying you should agree....but just realize what I'm saying without trying to change meanings of words.
 
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The Learner

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Whether the ego is complaining about a challenge to an assumed righteousness on God's level...or used for an attack on the rightness of what I teach as being too "mystical" or too "God-complexy" ....I still hold out hope that some will read this thread to some benefit. :)

The real issue is about taking a lower stance when it comes to thinking we are righteous. Only self-righteous people believe they are righteous. The righteous don't consider they are righteous...they are simply trying to do what is right...within their own abilities and understanding.

The higher righteousness does the same...but by DIVINE power. The saint doesn't consider himself/herself as righteous because they KNOW that it is God at work through them...not themselves. As Paul said...no longer I. but Christ.

But that walk in the higher realm of the Spirit...which should be understood...is NOT understood, as is evidenced by the responses. People have suffered under a religious conditioning so that people assume their own level of righteousness is God's.

So there is an error in scale!


People no longer understand the cost of making the kind of steps we read about in the bible. It's like looking at a map of the world and saying...it's not far to Japan...look I just have to take a few steps with my fingers. But getting there in reality takes more than just letting your fingers do the walking! ;)
Matthew 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

My thinking is righteousness comes from being in the vine of Jesus.


Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:6
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

looks like we need to read Romans 4
 
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The Learner

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Sure...but you are assuming that the template is enough to fill itself. The template is there as a vessel in shape of Christ...but we still need to be filled up....filled with the Spirit.

And we are not learning as Jesus did. Jesus was learning how to be human. We are being readied to carry the Divine. Jesus needed temporal wisdom and patience. We need faith and divine wisdom to proceed. So we are coming at things from opposite ends. We do NOT have what it takes to be like Jesus...we need to go to God for the full measure of grace at the throne of grace...when we are ready.

Without the anointing....the covering of God's righteousness (which is NOT a common thing or something to be assumed) we will not experience the extent of what is possible in Christ. As we are covered, the life from within is able to come out. ...overflowing life into the world.

Having Christ in us......is not the same as being IN Christ.

One is by an initial grace .....and the other by a full measure of grace that costs us everything...the pearl of great price.

You know what I teach...I don't understand why you can't articulate it...a mental block?

I'm not saying you should agree....but just realize what I'm saying without trying to change meanings of words.
II Peter 1
 

The Learner

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Romans 4
J.B. Phillips New Testament
Let us go back and consider our father Abraham
4 1-3 Now how does all this affect the position of our ancestor Abraham? Well, if justification were by achievement he could quite fairly be proud of what he achieved—but not, I am sure, proud before God. For what does scripture say about him? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness’.

4-8 Now if a man works his wages are not counted as a gift but as a fair reward. But if a man, irrespective of his work, has faith as righteousness, then that man’s faith is counted as righteousness, and that is the gift of God. This is the happy state of the man whom God accounts righteous, apart from his achievements, as David expresses it: ‘Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin’.

It is a matter of faith, not circumcision
9a Now the question, an important one, arises: is this happiness for the circumcised only, or for the uncircumcised as well?

9b-12 Note this carefully. We began by saying that Abraham’s faith was counted unto him for righteousness. When this happened, was he a circumcised man? He was not, he was still uncircumcised. It was afterwards that the sign of circumcision was given to him, as a seal upon that righteousness which God was accounting to him as yet an uncircumcised man! God’s purpose here is twofold. First, that Abraham might be the spiritual father of all who since that time, despite their circumcision, show the faith that is counted as righteousness. Then, secondly, that he might be the circumcised father of all those who are not only circumcised, but are living by the same sort of faith which he himself had before he was circumcised.

The promise, from the beginning, was made to faith
13-14 The ancient promise made to Abraham and his descendants, that they should eventually possess the world, was given not because of any achievements made through obedience to the Law, but because of the righteousness which had its root in faith. For if, after all, they who pin their faith to keeping the Law were to inherit God’s world, it would make nonsense of faith in God himself, and destroy the whole point of the promise.

15 For we have already noted that the Law can produce no promise, only the threat of wrath to come. And, indeed if there were no Law the question of sin would not arise.

16-17 The whole thing, then, is a matter of faith on man’s part and generosity on God’s. He gives the security of his own promise to all men who can be called “children of Abraham”, i.e. both those who have lived in faith by the Law, and those who have exhibited a faith like that of Abraham. To whichever group we belong, Abraham is in a real sense our father, as the scripture says: ‘I have made you a father of many nations’. This faith is valid because of the existence of God himself, who can make the dead live, and speak his Word to those who are yet unborn.

Abraham was a shining example of faith
18 Abraham, when hope was dead within him, went on hoping in faith, believing that he would become “the father of many nations”. He relied on the word of God which definitely referred to ‘your descendants’.

19-22 With undaunted faith he looked at the facts—his own impotence (he was practically a hundred years old at the time) and his wife Sarah’s apparent barrenness. Yet he refused to allow any distrust of a definite pronouncement of God to make him waver. He drew strength from his faith, and while giving the glory to God, remained absolutely convinced that God was able to implement his own promise. This was the “faith” which ‘was accounted to him for righteousness’.

23-25 Now this counting of faith for righteousness was not recorded simply for Abraham’s credit, but as a divine principle which should apply to us as well. Faith is to be reckoned as righteousness to us also, who believe in him who raised from the dead our Lord Jesus Christ, who was delivered to death for our sins and raised again to secure our justification.
 

The Learner

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Romans 4
King James Version
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
 
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marks

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3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Clearly Abraham's believing God was not a "work of righteousness". Abraham's believing God did not make Abraham no longer corrupted by sin, nor did his believing God undo unrighteousnesses from Abraham's life.

God justifies the ungodly, as they believe in Him.

God accounted this fallen man who was guilty of sin to be righteous not because he had undone those bad acts, and not because he was no longer corrupted by sin. But because he believed in a merciful God, Who accounted Him righteous because of that believing.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Much love!
 
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marks

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This doctrine of Imputation seems to be poorly understood by some.

Romans 2:25-27 KJV
25) For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26) Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27) And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

Though literally uncircumcised, they are reckoned to be circumcised. Does that mean the physical reality is changed? No, but it means there is something greater than the physical reality here.

God justifies the ungodly as He reckons their faith as righteousness. We have not undone our unrighteous acts. Nor have we ceased to be corrupted by sin. But when we trust in Jesus, we are reckoned to be righteous anyway - there is a higher work happening than some refreshing of our flesh.

Romans 6:11 KJV
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The same word is used here, reckon.

Does God mean that we are now supposed to pretend something about ourselves? Does God mean that He is now pretending? Or is there some higher work being done? Has He indeed made us righteous?

Much love!
 

Episkopos

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This doctrine of Imputation seems to be poorly understood by some.

That's for sure. I would say most...
Romans 2:25-27 KJV
25) For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26) Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27) And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

This is about doers of the law being justified. What does it matter the state of the flesh if the law is being fulfilled? This speaks to the Gentiles who are not following the law of Moses but yet are justified by faith. But not just any faith...the faith OF Christ that empowers people to walk as Jesus walked...fulfilling the law. Walking without sin. Walking beyond the capabilities of those who are walking in their own power trying to fulfill the law in their own strength.

Through His grace we can do all things.

It's not hearers of the law that are justified (Law of Moses types) but DOERS of the law that are justified (Those who put to death the deeds of the flesh through the Spirit)

Though literally uncircumcised, they are reckoned to be circumcised. Does that mean the physical reality is changed? No, but it means there is something greater than the physical reality here.
Yes. The purpose of physical circumcision is as an outward sign of the law of Moses. But that law was only a temporary thing until grace came.

God justifies the ungodly as He reckons their faith as righteousness. We have not undone our unrighteous acts.
This is not right. God justifies those who were not trying to follow the law (the ungodly) by giving them resurrection life. Then, they walk above sin.



Nor have we ceased to be corrupted by sin. But when we trust in Jesus, we are reckoned to be righteous anyway - there is a higher work happening than some refreshing of our flesh.

Even more wrong. We escape the corruption from sin through Christ. In Him is no sin. There is no justification IN sin. Although the righteous sin...they are not justified until God says they are. God's mercy extends to the humble. He calls the humble...righteous.

A disciple of Christ has ceased from the corruption of sin...being no longer OF the world. That is...when the outer man has been crucified...in Spirit and truth.

Romans 6:11 KJV
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The same word is used here, reckon.

Does God mean that we are now supposed to pretend something about ourselves? Does God mean that He is now pretending? Or is there some higher work being done? Has He indeed made us righteous?

Much love!
Our reckoning doesn't mean we free ourselves from sin. It means we don't indulge in what we know to be sin. But only the cross of Christ has the power to mortify the flesh and free the inner man to walk as Jesus walked.

Methinks you are overemphasizing the words "reckoning" and that God justifies the "ungodly" Gentiles who are not following the law of Moses.

A lot of what Paul says is directed at Judaizers who sought to bring new gentile converts to be further converted to Judaism.
 

marks

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Yes. The purpose of physical circumcision is as an outward sign of the law of Moses. But that law was only a temporary thing until grace came.
You've sidestepped what I wrote. Your response here is entirely non-sequitur. Look at the way Paul uses the words, and how that relates to their circumcision status. Set aside for the moment whether or not they or us were/are living sinless or not, we're just looking at words and how they are used in the Bible.

They were and were not physically circumcised, however, they are reckoned circumcised or not in a way that does not reflect the state of their flesh body, or their rite.

You've argued that "imputation" is the same as "attribution", and that when faith was counted as righteousness, this means that God recognized the righteousness in Abraham that he had in believing God. Do I understand you correctly?

However, in this passage, they are imputed circumcision, though being uncircumcised, and others imputed uncircumcision, though being circumcised.

There are a number of other places where this is shown, I chose this one as I think it's fairly clear.

Another is when we read, "blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin", though we know that "all men sin", that "all have fallen short", there is no man aside from Jesus who is not guilty of sin, and yet, "blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin".
Our reckoning doesn't mean we free ourselves from sin. It means we don't indulge in what we know to be sin. But only the cross of Christ has the power to mortify the flesh and free the inner man to walk as Jesus walked.
Yes, that is correct, we do not free ourselves from sin. That is addressed in other parts of this passage.

It's easier to show when looking at more of the passage,

Romans 6:3-13 KJV
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (immersed into His death)
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Being baptized into Jesus' death, we share in His death, and it is our death. The "body of sin" is rendered powerless, that we "should not" serve sin.

God declares plainly, in this context that we have died with Christ when He died, that "he that is dead is freed from sin". This part is literally written, "the one dead is justified away from sin".

And God tells that in the very same way that Jesus is dead to sin and alive to God, that is, having died, and been raised again, we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God.

And He goes on, "therefore, don't let sin rule in your mortal body", He is admonishing us to make the right choice, don't let sin rule in your body.

God tells us to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God. This is not,

Our reckoning doesn't mean we free ourselves from sin. It means we don't indulge in what we know to be sin.

This is not an admonition to "don't indulge", that's in the next verse. This reckoning, this is God telling us to think rightly about ourselves, that having died in Christ, and been freed from sin, to now think of ourselves that way, and then comes the admonition, now that you are thinking of yourself as free from sin, now, don't let sin rule in your "mortal body", which is our flesh.

Why are we told to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God? Sight tells us we are not, faith is that we are. We walk by faith and not by sight. If you don't believe you are free from sin you will follow along in the same footsteps you always have, because that's how the mind works. We have to be renewed to the new mind.

We mature in Christ, and this new mind becomes more and more in control, as we are trained being His disciples.

It feels like sin has power, because that's the way our brains, our minds were formed. It's what we became used to in the flesh. In Christ, we are reborn new and righteous spirit children of God who live in these corrupted flesh bodies. The fleshy mind still has it's fleshy circuits, and if we let it, it will still run the show.

But God has freed us in Christ, and now trains us, as children if necessary, to run things His way.

I think maybe put actually more emphasis on "reckon", and remember, God is NOT asking us to lie to ourselves!

Much love!
 
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Episkopos

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You've sidestepped what I wrote. Your response here is entirely non-sequitur.

LOL. You did exactly that by ignoring everything I posted...which I tried to do without having to correct you too much. I thought you would see what Paul was saying without need for further correction. But ...I tried...

The "circumcision" is Israel. The "uncircumcision" is the Gentiles. Those are terms used by Jews and written as such in the OT.

No one attributes or imputes one to the other.

What you missed is that what mattered to Paul was that the law was fulfilled. You sidestepped that completely...that being the purpose of Paul's argument.

But you did latch onto something that Paul said...and misinterpreted his intention. You are making Paul sound religious...whereas he is not religious. So you are latching onto a word "counted" as if that was the point of the argument...which it isn't.

It would be like saying...a nation which was not a nation is now a nation...or counted as a nation. A people that were not a people are now a people...or...now counted as a people. Or...a people that fulfilled the law (uncircumcised) are acting as if they were.

This is where you miss it. It's about FULFILLING the law to be SEEN as circumcised. And this is about being circumcised in the heart by the Spirit...not the flesh. I think we agree on that. BUT....there is no need to take a statement and make it religious.

Another non-religious example along the same lines is from Xerxes....who said... My men have fought like women and my women have fought like men. (In regard to the Battle of Salamis)

Why say that? The EFFECTIVENESS of a woman commander. So then she was "counted" to have fought like a man. Was she imputed manhood? No...the interest we have is in her fighting ability...not her gender.

So going back to Paul. His idea is... my Gentiles have walked as Israel...or...my uncircumcised have walked as circumcised.

Why...because the law was fulfilled.






You've argued that "imputation" is the same as "attribution", and that when faith was counted as righteousness, this means that God recognized the righteousness in Abraham that he had in believing God. Do I understand you correctly?
Yes. An imputation from God is based on an eternal reality....in righteousness and truth.
 
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marks

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LOL. You did exactly that by ignoring everything I posted...which I tried to do without having to correct you too much. I thought you would see what Paul was saying without need for further correction. But ...I tried...

The "circumcision" is Israel. The "uncircumcision" is the Gentiles. Those are terms used by Jews and written as such in the OT.

No one attributes or imputes one to the other.

What you missed is that what mattered to Paul was that the law was fulfilled. You sidestepped that completely...that being the purpose of Paul's argument.

But you did latch onto something that Paul said...and misinterpreted his intention. You are making Paul sound religious...whereas he is not religious. So you are latching onto a word "counted" as if that was the point of the argument...which it isn't.

The discussion is "imputation". Romans 4 is rich with examples of how this word logidzomai is used. This one concerning circumcision gives clear evidence that something may be "logidzomai'd" contrary to what someone looking would say.

Yes, it is because they kept the Law, however, I'm looking at the word usage of logidzomai.
It would be like saying...a nation which was not a nation is now a nation...or counted as a nation. A people that were not a people are now a people...or...now counted as a people. Or...a people that fulfilled the law (uncircumcised) are acting as if they were.

This is where you miss it. It's about FULFILLING the law to be SEEN as circumcised. And this is about being circumcised in the heart by the Spirit...not the flesh. I think we agree on that. BUT....there is no need to take a statement and make it religious.

Another non-religious example along the same lines is from Xerxes....who said... My men have fought like women and my women have fought like men. (In regard to the Battle of Salamis)

Why say that? The EFFECTIVENESS of a woman commander. So then she was "counted" to have fought like a man. Was she imputed manhood? No...the interest we have is in her fighting ability...not her gender.

So going back to Paul. His idea is... my Gentiles have walked as Israel...or...my uncircumcised have walked as circumcised.

Why...because the law was fulfilled.
And all this goes towards the Biblical usage.

"Impute", logidzomai, is not simply to recognize something true about someone, that is, as though we were to have somehow discovered that the uncircumcised actually are circumcised, that's not it.
Yes. An imputation from God is based on an eternal reality....in righteousness and truth.
Ephesians 4:21-24 KJV
21) If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Before Jesus rose from the dead, God imputed righteousness to those who believed, yet they were not born again. As we have been baptized into His death, and been born from God, this is the New Man, created in God's Own pattern, in righteousness and holiness of truth, as opposed to,

Ephesians 4:17-19 KJV
17) This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18) Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19) Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Now return to Romans 4, where we find that the sinners are not imputed with sin, and the man Abraham, not because he did works of righteousness, but because he believed God, he is accounted to be righteous. Not from works of righteousness, but because he believed God.

Faith is here also contrasted with works, so we know that one is not the same as the other.

Without understanding the meaning of the words used we won't arrive at the right place.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Romans 6:1-12 KJV
1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Much love!
 
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Wrangler

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LOL. You did exactly that by ignoring everything I posted

Such self-centeredness! You’re proving to have the inability to respond to another’s original idea.

You only acknowledge people responding to points you make AND ONLY IF they respond in the way you prefer.

When you are called out on your BS, you have the audacity to accuse the other person of doing what you, yourself are doing.

...which I tried to do without having to correct you too much.
Your humility (or lack there of) continues to make an impression.
 
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marks

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What you missed is that what mattered to Paul was that the law was fulfilled. You sidestepped that completely...that being the purpose of Paul's argument.
This was the reason for the imputation, however, this does not change the fact that the uncircumcised are imputed circumcision. Abraham believed God, and that is the reason why God imputed righteousness to Abraham.

The uncircumcised fulfilled the Law, and their uncircumcision was counted as circumcision. Not changed to circumcision, but accounted as circumcision.

Abraham believed God, and his believing, and not "works of righteousness", and not a "state of righteousness", it was his believing, that was counted as righteousness.

Much love!
 
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Episkopos

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@Wrangler said
Such self-centeredness! You’re proving to have the inability to respond to another’s original idea.
When we quote the bible...we are quoting the original idea of another person...in this case Paul. Mark misused the verse because he latched onto a word that he then used erroneously to match his own idea....which is not biblical. There's a LOT of that going on.

How is that being self-centered? Is that not being Bible-centered? I see you have come for an ego fix once again...flogging what you call a speck (actually a plank) around the thread once again.

Again...having a religious idea doesn't mean that it can be IMPUTED to the bible.


You only acknowledge people responding to points you make AND ONLY IF they respond in the way you prefer.
Only in a biblical way. The bible uses many similar ideas to express the same point. The trick is to find how that works...


When you are called out on your BS, you have the audacity to accuse the other person of doing what you, yourself are doing.
My Bible Study (or BS as you call it), is thorough and uses the advantage of "foreign" languages to decipher the actual intent of the narrative...comparing like with like...or in your case...dislike with dislike! ;)
Your humility (or lack there of) continues to make an impression.
How can your ego get so bruised from such a distance. Truly impressive.
 
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Episkopos

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@marks said...

This was the reason for the imputation, however, this does not change the fact that the uncircumcised are imputed circumcision. Abraham believed God, and that is the reason why God imputed righteousness to Abraham.
That's religious reasoning foreign to the bible. Nobody is imputed circumcision. In the natural a knife is used....and there's actual blood. In the Spirit the circumcision is spiritual so that a new life and power are IMPARTED (not imputed).


The uncircumcised fulfilled the Law, and their uncircumcision was counted as circumcision. Not changed to circumcision, but accounted as circumcision.
Sort of....People don't fulfill the law BECAUSE they are uncircumcised...but because they have received the grace to do it. It has nothing to do with natural circumcision. In Christ NEITHER circumcision not circumcision mean anything. So then you are not getting the point right. You are trying to find meaning where the bible says...there is no meaning.

Gal. 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision avails any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which works by love.

One does not impute something of no value on something that has equally no value.


Trying to equate that to Abraham is not the right way to go. Otherwise you would have to see...in the faith of Abraham there is neither righteousness nor unrighteousness.



Abraham believed God, and his believing, and not "works of righteousness", and not a "state of righteousness", it was his believing, that was counted as righteousness.

This makes no sense...it is religious mumbo-jumbo.

Stay away from religious interpretations. The NT is about real power and real eternal things...no need to invent religious formulas...that make no sense at all.

God saw Abraham as righteous, because he did what took faith to do...he trusted God so much that it impressed the angels of God.
 
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