Imputed righteousness;

[Prentis]

Do you say I have lifted myself up above others because I do not agree with you, and oppose your message? Am I wrong in saying we should exhort each other, and be iron sharpening iron?

God calls his followers to discipleship, to be learners of him, and leave all behind to follow him, and be conformed to him. You create a gospel that denies the need for this, that tells people they can follow God while keeping their lives. But the Lord says that we must lose our life for him, if we are to find it.

The gospel requires that we follow Christ, you make this commandment null.

 

[RichardBurger]

Do you say I have lifted myself up above others because I do not agree with you, and oppose your message? Am I wrong in saying we should exhort each other, and be iron sharpening iron?

God calls his followers to discipleship, to be learners of him, and leave all behind to follow him, and be conformed to him. You create a gospel that denies the need for this, that tells people they can follow God while keeping their lives. But the Lord says that we must lose our life for him, if we are to find it.

The gospel requires that we follow Christ, you make this commandment null.

I have told you before that you are not God and since you sin, just like the rest of us, you have no business telling the other children of God how they are to walk with God.

You make His commandment null because under grace God has done all that is required for a person's salvation on the cross if they will just believe it and you say it is not enough.

Every child of God is indwelled by the Holy Spirit and it is the Holy Spirit that directs the child God. Why do you insist that they listen to you? Your not the Holy Spirit but you seem to think you can do His work. --- IMHO you are just an ego driven religious man who thinks he is closer to God than others just like the Pharisee.

Luke 18:9-14 ---- The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
NKJV

 

[Prentis]

You do not believe then, that man can actually be the instrument of God? You do not believe then that God works through his vessels?

When it says, it is no longer I who lives, but Christ lives in me. Do you believe we can actually STOP living for the lusts of men and live for the will of God?

You make his gospel null because you deny both the necessity of the work of the cross in us, and the power of new life.

 

[Vengle]

you said "If the work is all ready done, then what is left for me to do?"

Placing your belief, faith, trust, confidence in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross is being obedient to God in this age of grace.

You seem to feel that your salvation is based on what you do to obtain it (legalism). In other words you think God owes you salvation because of of what you do, God owes it to you because you have earned it. ---- That will not get anyone into heaven. A person can not get into heaven any other way than the blood shed on the cross.

God's power is shown by the cross because through it all who place their belief, faith, trust, confidence in the shed blood HAVE BEEN (past tense) reconciled to God. We are saved and kept by the power oF God. It is a shame that not many will accept this and have eternal life but they don't.

Why do you think that you have to be trying to work your way to righteousness if you are required to have works. Is it because you know that you personally could not do those works out of love for God rather than pride?

Cease that convicting of others on the basis of your own flaws. :lol:

 

[logabe]

Paul tells us in Rom. 5:12,

12 through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world,
and death [mortality] through sin, and so death spread
to all men, on which all sinned.

In Romans 5, Paul was telling us that sin entered the world through
Adam and that Adam's sin was then imputed to all men. In other
words, everyone has to pay the penalty for Adam's sin, because his
sin was imputed to all men. We today were not present when Adam
sinned, but we are paying the penalty as if we had sinned in Adam.

Thus, we are all mortal. This death in us is a disease that makes us
morally weak. And so Paul says in Romans 5:12 above, "death
spread to all men--ON WHICH all sinned." No man is without sin,
because all are mortal. We sin because we are mortal. We did not
suddenly become mortal when we ourselves sinned.

The problem with the Old Covenant is that mortal man is incapable of
full obedience. The conditions of the Old Covenant are beyond man's
capability to reach perfection, even though man's actions may be
controlled by external laws.

This is the great weakness of the Old Covenant. It requires man to do
something in order to come into right standing before God. It is thus a
covenant of works, man's effort or self-discipline, but it does not make
man capable of fulfilling such obligations.

This is what puts man into slavery. The sincere person finds himself in
slavery his entire life time, trying to be good enough to inherit the
promises of God. Thus, he must either lower God's standard to fit his
capability, or his guilty conscience will continue to plague him all of his
life.

On the other hand, the New Covenant is an unconditional covenant,
because there is no "IF" clause (Exodus 19:5). It is a covenant where
God promises to do the work in us, rather than making the promise
conditional upon man's works or efforts.

Secondly, the New Covenant is based upon an inner work that God
will do, because the law will no longer be written externally on tables
of stone, but internally upon the heart. instead of the law being
imposed by man--either by other men or by our own wills through self-
discipline--it is accomplished through the Holy Spirit. He speaks to us
and leads us by His Spirit, even as Israel was led by the pillar of cloud
and the pillar of fire in the wilderness under Moses.

These two covenants, then, are allegorically pictured in Ishmael and
Isaac. The children of the Old Covenant are enslaved, attempting to
become perfected by their own ability to be perfectly obedient. Their
sincerity cannot be questioned and can even be very admirable.

On the other hand, the children of the New Covenant are born of a
freewoman, even as Isaac. The responsibility is placed upon God's
shoulders to make His people righteous. This was done through the
fulfillment of the feast of Passover when Jesus Christ paid the penalty
for our sin through His death on the cross. And now, as we journey
through the wilderness of life, we have a second feast called Pentecost
in which God is writing His law upon our hearts.

Christians are those whose relationship with God is defined by the
provisions of the New Covenant. When they accept Jesus Christ's
Sacrifice for sin, God imputes the righteousness of Christ to them--
as if they were already perfected. They are then able to journey
through the wilderness (Pentecost) as freemen, rather than as
bondmen. They are IMPUTED righteous until such time as they are
made ACTUALLY righteous at the fulfillment of the feast of Tabernacles.

Logabe

 

[jiggyfly]

Very good post Logabe, something else that many misunderstand is what Paul says in Romans 5:1.
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Justified means more than forgiven, it means found not guilty. So by faith in the works of Christ we are made innocent.

 

[Vengle]

Amen logabe.

If we sum the words of James up to our common way of understanding, when James says, You show me your faith apart from works and I will show you my faith by my works", all James is telling us is that if what you (you as in logabe) said is true, then we will see the evidence of that law being written in our hearts.

For as it is written in our hearts IT (the law of God) produces God's work in us.

That is what the scripture means when it tells us that God's word gives life.

John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

John 6:68 "Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life."

 

[RichardBurger]

You do not believe then, that man can actually be the instrument of God? You do not believe then that God works through his vessels?

When it says, it is no longer I who lives, but Christ lives in me. Do you believe we can actually STOP living for the lusts of men and live for the will of God?

You make his gospel null because you deny both the necessity of the work of the cross in us, and the power of new life.

All of your ideas are summed in this. "what we do to obtain salvation" as if God did not finish the work of salvation on the cross. We are not saved by what we do. We are saved and kept saved by the power of God and not by what we do. You never mention the cross or the blood so, IMHO, you are trying to get to heaven by your works.

I don't deny that God works through His children. They are what God does in us, --- not what we do in us. You are saying that WE must do those things and that is denying that it is God that does those things.

The scriptures do not teach that the flesh can become perfect and sinless.

 

[Prentis]

No, the scripture teaches we can be made perfect while walking in the flesh. Do we identify with our body as being we? Then we cannot overcome. But we must understand this is only a tent.

The perfect way is to submit wholeheartedly so that 'it is no longer I who lives, but Christ lives in me' becomes reality for us also, and that we would walk in the light.

In the meantime, if we do not walk in this, we must be obedient and faithful in whatever the Lord has given us. IF we add to our faith what we should, it says we will never stumble. So this must be our aim; to be conformed to Christ in character.

Then we can walk in the light of God and not stumble and fall at temptation.

 

[logabe]

Amen logabe.

If we sum the words of James up to our common way of understanding, when James says, You show me your faith apart from works and I will show you my faith by my works", all James is telling us is that if what you (you as in logabe) said is true, then we will see the evidence of that law being written in our hearts.

For as it is written in our hearts IT (the law of God) produces God's work in us.

That is what the scripture means when it tells us that God's word gives life.

John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

John 6:68 "Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life."

That's a revelation Vengle... keep it in your heart and don't let the enemy steal it
from you.

Logabe

 

[logabe]

Very good post Logabe, something else that many misunderstand is what Paul says in Romans 5:1.
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Justified means more than forgiven, it means found not guilty. So by faith in the works of Christ we are made innocent.

Exactly... we are innocent not perfect in the flesh but perfect in our faith
in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. He is our perfection
and we are imputed righteousness @ the moment but, we will actually be
righteous @ his second coming. Not because we are so good but because
he paid the price on the cross. We have to press into the high calling of
God, not to be saved but to receive rewards @ that Great Day of the Lord.
Isn't that what Paul told us?

Logabe

 

[jiggyfly]

Exactly... we are innocent not perfect in the flesh but perfect in our faith
in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. He is our perfection
and we are imputed righteousness @ the moment but, we will actually be
righteous @ his second coming. Not because we are so good but because
he paid the price on the cross. We have to press into the high calling of
God, not to be saved but to receive rewards @ that Great Day of the Lord.
Isn't that what Paul told us?

Logabe

Yes indeed, I agree and think it is quite simple yet some disagree.

 

[Duckybill]

Luke 13:23-24 (NKJV)
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them, 24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

 

[Thankful 1]

Exactly... we are innocent not perfect in the flesh but perfect in our faith
in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. He is our perfection
and we are imputed righteousness @ the moment but, we will actually be
righteous @ his second coming. Not because we are so good but because
he paid the price on the cross. We have to press into the high calling of
God, not to be saved but to receive rewards @ that Great Day of the Lord.
Isn't that what Paul told us?

Logabe
How wrong you are! You did not learn what you posted from God. Tell me do you believe God taught you what you just posted? If so why don’t you share how he did teach you?

Read the following verse, and see that if one is being led and taught by the Holy Spirit they will do as the Holy Spirit tells him or her.
(Galations 5:13-26)”For you were called for freedom, brothers.[sup] [/sup]But do not use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh; rather, serve[sup] [/sup]one another through love. For the whole law[sup] [/sup]is fulfilled in one statement, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you go on biting and devouring one another, beware that you are not consumed by one another. I say, then: live by the Spirit and you will certainly not gratify the desire of the flesh.[sup] [/sup]For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you may not do what you want. But if you are guided by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy,[sup] [/sup]drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ [Jesus] have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires.[sup] [/sup] If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit.[sup] [/sup]Let us not be conceited, provoking one another, envious of one another.

 

[Prentis]

Exactly... we are innocent not perfect in the flesh but perfect in our faith
in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. He is our perfection
and we are imputed righteousness @ the moment but, we will actually be
righteous @ his second coming. Not because we are so good but because
he paid the price on the cross. We have to press into the high calling of
God, not to be saved but to receive rewards @ that Great Day of the Lord.
Isn't that what Paul told us?

Logabe

There is so much talk about being eternally 'saved' and losing 'rewards'.

All that goes against the disobedient servant (christian) being cast out, doesn't it? It is made quite clear that all that we save is our life, but we live in outer darkness, that is, if we are unfaithful and unfruitful servants.

Is God too weak to transform us now? We cannot yet truly know him?

 

[RichardBurger]

There is so much talk about being eternally 'saved' and losing 'rewards'.

All that goes against the disobedient servant (christian) being cast out, doesn't it? It is made quite clear that all that we save is our life, but we live in outer darkness, that is, if we are unfaithful and unfruitful servants.

Is God too weak to transform us now? We cannot yet truly know him?

You are disobedient when you place your faith in what you do to be save and kept saved. When you do that you are placing your works over the work of God on the cross.

God does not transform the flesh if He did it would not die.

 

[Episkopos]

You are disobedient when you place your faith in what you do to be save and kept saved. When you do that you are placing your works over the work of God on the cross.

God does not transform the flesh if He did it would not die.

There is a difference between our weak bodies and the carnal nature that gives drive to the flesh. The bible is concerned with the flesh NATURE that causes us to be rebellious to God. The carnal NATURE is what separates us from God. It is a life that is outside of God.

This is not to be confused with our earthly flesh bodies. These bodies are not evil...but merely weak. Our bodies are to be vessels of holiness. In order for this to take place we need a new nature through a new birth from heaven. Having received this new nature, we then need to have the old nature crippled and brought down to nothing. This is both a heavenly dealing of the cross of Christ AND a continuing reckoning of the death to the power that once animated us and made us strangers to God.

 

[RichardBurger]

There is a difference between our weak bodies and the carnal nature that gives drive to the flesh. The bible is concerned with the flesh NATURE that causes us to be rebellious to God. The carnal NATURE is what separates us from God. It is a life that is outside of God.

This is not to be confused with our earthly flesh bodies. These bodies are not evil...but merely weak. Our bodies are to be vessels of holiness. In order for this to take place we need a new nature through a new birth from heaven. Having received this new nature, we then need to have the old nature crippled and brought down to nothing. This is both a heavenly dealing of the cross of Christ AND a continuing reckoning of the death to the power that once animated us and made us strangers to God.

Are you perfect and sinless in the flesh now?

 

[Prentis]

Episkopos lays it out well.

Our earthly bodies are merely tents, weak, yes, unlike a house of stone, but not evil. It is the lusts that are of our adamic nature which are evil, and oppose God.

Your reaction to ask 'are YOU perfect' is typical. Not that the question in itself is bad... But as usual, you seek to dismantle the power of God by saying 'see, you don't do it!' It is as if you were an Israelite looking at Joshua and Caleb and saying 'did YOU ever conquer Canaan? No? Well there, you can't!'

All you are doing is dodging the point and trying to invalidate the question with faulty... Very faulty... reasoning.

The fact is all you are doing... over and over... is denying the power of the gospel.

 

[jiggyfly]

There is a difference between our weak bodies and the carnal nature that gives drive to the flesh. The bible is concerned with the flesh NATURE that causes us to be rebellious to God. The carnal NATURE is what separates us from God. It is a life that is outside of God.

This is not to be confused with our earthly flesh bodies. These bodies are not evil...but merely weak. Our bodies are to be vessels of holiness. In order for this to take place we need a new nature through a new birth from heaven. Having received this new nature, we then need to have the old nature crippled and brought down to nothing. This is both a heavenly dealing of the cross of Christ AND a continuing reckoning of the death to the power that once animated us and made us strangers to God.

I'd like to hear more about this "life that is outside of God" can you elaborate?