Thanks for your opinion but I don't see it that way. You are still preaching salvation by works.
Imputed righteousness;
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Thanks for your opinion but I don't see it that way. You are still preaching salvation by works.
Prentis
New Member
Of course, obedience by faith is possible, but not recommended!
You don't have to take the Land, that was just the Lord's suggestion!
You just have to believe he is God, and paid your ticket and... Magic Jesus... There you are!
But this has no bearing on reality. Rather we are to truly, not figuratively, overcome, by the power given us in Christ Jesus, because we are a new creation in him.
Of course, obedience by faith is possible, but not recommended!
You don't have to take the Land, that was just the Lord's suggestion!
You just have to believe he is God, and paid your ticket and... Magic Jesus... There you are!
But this has no bearing on reality. Rather we are to truly, not figuratively, overcome, by the power given us in Christ Jesus, because we are a new creation in him.
You are still preaching salvation by your works and not by the grace of God. It is our spirit that is a new creation, not our flesh sin nature. Our spirit has been reborn of the Holy Spirit and since it is born of God is sinless right now, not later. But no one in their right mind can say that our sinfuf flesh nature is reborn to sinlessness. Nor can they say mankind can, by their own power, not sin
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Prentis,
I don't know why I'm getting involved in the mess of a thread, but here goes nothing. Are good works, in your view, the fruit of salvation or do good works help merit salvation?
I don't know why I'm getting involved in the mess of a thread, but here goes nothing. Are good works, in your view, the fruit of salvation or do good works help merit salvation?
The question proves a confusion between salvation and the Holy Spirit. There is also a confusion of doing things in one's own strength and through the Spirit.
The bible says...obedience is better than sacrifice. Would you say that Jesus' sacrifice is better than obedience?
This shows the logic you are using is not from above.
This is from a friend...
The problem with modern gospels is that they either teach that one is justified by performing the works of the Law, ( by which no flesh shall be justified), or they teach a Gospel that entirely leaves the Law out, proclaiming a prosperity Gospel of "trust in Jesus, and your life will be better", "He will give you happiness and prosperity, etc", and "why not give Jesus a try?" This is true in some cases, but it is not the proper bait to be used by fishers of men, because if someone gets saved to make their life better or because they think that Christ will magically make all their troubles disappear, what will happen when persecution or tribulation arises? They will wither and die, because they have no root. The proper method is to show that all have sinned, and all will give an account to God for their sins, then show that Jesus paid the penalty for all of our sins, but that we must both repent and believe to be saved. Too many churches teach belief only and do not teach that one must repent and turn away from their sins to God! The modern gospel is a gospel of head belief or intellectual assent without genuine repentance, which is why a vast majority of people who make decisions for Christ fall away in a very short time.
No child of God becomes a child of God unless they acknowledge to themselves and to God that they need what Jesus did on the cross to become reconciled to God. Repentance is an attitude of the heart.
You said; "Would you say that Jesus' sacrifice is better than obedience?"
I would because the obedience required under grace is to stand firm (through belief, faith, trust, confidence) in the liberty that Jesus purchased for us by sheding His blood on the cross. It is by belief, faith, trust, confidence in His shed blood that a person becomes a child of God. Not because he/she works for it.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
I'm not going to pretend to know what in the world you're talking about. I'll just leave it there.
Since Prentis hasn't answered my very simple question, maybe you could do so, seeing that you seem to be preaching the same soteriology.
Why does your reasoning go against the scriptures?
Obedience is better than sacrifice. It is far better to obey God than constantly need to be forgiven.
Good works are the fruit of obedience.
It doesn't. --- You seem to think that a person's obedience is better than Christ's obedience (sacrifice) before God.
Romans 5:18-21
18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,
21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
NKJV
The children of God have been made righteous as a free gift through the righteous act of Jesus Christ by their faith in Him. Not through the self-righteous works of mankind. -- In verse 21 the righteousness indicated is not man's righteousness, but Jesus' righteousness.
God will never justify the wicked.
Jesus' obedience was done so that we could also be empowered to obey the same as He. Thart is why disciples are called FOLLOWERS (not just beneficiaries)
You are seeing Jesus as someone to gain an advantage from...not become like. A disciple is learning obedience like His Master. It is our turn to lay down our lives for God and for others. IF we do this THEN the blood of Jesus covers us. We don't become beneficiaries of God's grace because we want to be. That would let every self-seeking person into the kingdom! God forbid!
Religious man has always wanted to be like God (Jesus).
Genesis 3:5
5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
NKJV
Romans 4:5-8
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJV
The ungodly = the wicked
You said; "You are seeing Jesus as someone to gain an advantage from...not become like. A disciple is learning obedience like His Master. It is our turn to lay down our lives for God and for others. IF we do this THEN the blood of Jesus covers us."
So you believe if we can work hard enough to not sin then, and only then, can a person be saved. The blood covers us if we work for it. If we earn it. (so much for a free gift) --- You know nothing about the gospel of grace and nothing about faith in Jesus' work on the cross.
Salvation is IN Christ. As we abide in Him we are abiding in He who saves us. I think you have completely missed the purpose of the bible. The gospel of grace you see as a scheme to let it all slide...by claiming you are covered for an inside track on doing nothing because of a misplaced belief that God does NOT require obedience at all. That makes the commandments merely suggestions or else just a ploy to catch those who actually take the commandments seriously. For your sake you better hope that the commandments of God are just an inside joke...for that is how you are treating them.
In your scheme one is a fool for listening to God. So you make Jesus as a cover for a God who no longer sees you as you are. If you are wrong and God is actually aware of your true condition, then are you not going to regret passing up the real grace that fulfills the commandments?
But you are banking on an easy grace that cleverly makes sinners justified through a desire to be saved. You are advocating the flesh gospel...not the gospel of grace.
Jesus will not justify the flesh.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
So first it was "God will never justify the wicked." Scripture was brought to bear on that error and now it's "Jesus will not justify the flesh." It would seem that the goal posts are shifting all of a sudden.
Now, for the record, no one here has said that those who are saved "do nothing" or that God doesn't "require obedience." Good works and obedience are the fruit and result of salvation, not the cause thereof. Notice Paul's "ordo salutis", if you will:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
First we have the efficient cause, "by grace." Then we have the instrumental cause, "through faith." Notice carefully what is not a cause of salvation -- "not of works." Also notice the place of "good works" in the scheme of salvation. "Good works" are the resultant state of salvation, not the cause thereof. Again, we are saved by grace, through faith, unto good works. Those who are saved are new creatures in Christ and will bear the fruit of regeneration. You and your friend Prentis need to learn this very important lesson. Good works and obedience are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If you think for a second that God is going to save you based on your performance, in any way, shape or form, not only are you are sadly mistaken, you insult the cross and trample on the very blood of Christ.
Jesus will not justify either the wicked or the flesh. Neither will He justify disobedience! It takes a lot of indoctrination to not be able to see this. Ask anyone on the street.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
That's the only kind of person God does justify. There are none righteous, no not one. That being said, you were already corrected on this.
Rom 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."
The problem here, Episkopos, is that you obviously do not understand justification. To be justified by imputation means to be "counted as righteous" because of the righteousness of Christ. God declares us righteous in Christ. No one is justified before God by their own works. You are confusing justification with sanctification. Sanctification is when we are "set apart" for God as his holy people. This is where works and obedience come into play, but only as the fruit of salvation, never the root. You do not obey and do good works to get saved. You do these things because you are saved.
1Jn 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.
Prentis
New Member
The problem here Nomad, is that you do not understand that the gospel has power to actually move us away from what we WERE. None is righteous as God, apart from God... But those in Christ are just as he is, and walk as he walked, if they are all the way... Otherwise, we should be on our way to this.
[sup]9[/sup] Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men [sup]10[/sup] nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [sup]11[/sup] And that is what some of you were.
There is a clear tendency here to point to what God HAS done, without seeing how this is meant to bring us away from what we WERE, rather than save us in our old state. A bent towards covering our own faults, rather than being honest about them like the publican? Indeed!
[sup]9[/sup] Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men [sup]10[/sup] nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [sup]11[/sup] And that is what some of you were.
There is a clear tendency here to point to what God HAS done, without seeing how this is meant to bring us away from what we WERE, rather than save us in our old state. A bent towards covering our own faults, rather than being honest about them like the publican? Indeed!
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
No, it's quite to the contrary. The problem here is that as you cling so tenaciously to your error you are blinded to what I've said many times over now. Your charge quoted above is case in point. I've actually said the exact opposite of your charge, again, many times over. I'll quote the most recent example, which is a mere 4 posts back -- post 73 to be exact.
There it is. Your charge is false.
I'm afraid that you are the one who does not understand the Gospel and it's power to save. For you, the Gospel is simply a means to self-righteousness. I must warn you that you are treading on very dangerous ground here.
Now, since you failed to answer my question to you from a previous post, I'll ask again in a slightly different form. Do you agree or disagree with the following statement? If you disagree explain why.
"If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema."
Prentis
New Member
Sorry Nomad, I missed the question you posted earlier.
Again, you see salvation as a ticket being punched, or entering the gate. But salvation is in Christ only, and Christ is the gate AND the way, unless we enter the gate AND walk the way, we can have no part with him. What qualifies an servant as being unfaithful is that he enters the gate and decides not to walk the way.
God will work on us, he will discipline us, attempt to bring us back, but ultimately we must choose, just as we chose to enter the gate. The fig tree that receives rain from God, and is pruned, and yet year after year bears no fruit is only good to be cut out and burned.
What is more self righteous (self justified) than to declare oneself justified by what God has done? Rather we are called to respond as he commands us to. If the love of God is in us, we will follow his commands. We must learn to walk in that love.
You use the fact we were washed in the blood of Christ to deny that man must be obedient and righteous. Repentance is no repentance at all if we do not turn from our ways! Let all who love the Lord depart from iniquity!
It flies in the face of God's character to think that one who does what is right will be condemned and one who is evil will be justified on the account of another. By God's blood, we get a fresh start, not 'we pass the finish line and win'! We are put INTO the race when we repent and are cleansed by the blood. Then we must run the race set before us with the grace given us.
Unless you want to deny the existence of the unfaithful servant, the cast away, the one who crucifies Christ afresh! We are called to good works, the question is, are we faithful in doing them? Do we abide? The ball IS in our court, and WE must respond.
Again, you see salvation as a ticket being punched, or entering the gate. But salvation is in Christ only, and Christ is the gate AND the way, unless we enter the gate AND walk the way, we can have no part with him. What qualifies an servant as being unfaithful is that he enters the gate and decides not to walk the way.
God will work on us, he will discipline us, attempt to bring us back, but ultimately we must choose, just as we chose to enter the gate. The fig tree that receives rain from God, and is pruned, and yet year after year bears no fruit is only good to be cut out and burned.
What is more self righteous (self justified) than to declare oneself justified by what God has done? Rather we are called to respond as he commands us to. If the love of God is in us, we will follow his commands. We must learn to walk in that love.
You use the fact we were washed in the blood of Christ to deny that man must be obedient and righteous. Repentance is no repentance at all if we do not turn from our ways! Let all who love the Lord depart from iniquity!
It flies in the face of God's character to think that one who does what is right will be condemned and one who is evil will be justified on the account of another. By God's blood, we get a fresh start, not 'we pass the finish line and win'! We are put INTO the race when we repent and are cleansed by the blood. Then we must run the race set before us with the grace given us.
Unless you want to deny the existence of the unfaithful servant, the cast away, the one who crucifies Christ afresh! We are called to good works, the question is, are we faithful in doing them? Do we abide? The ball IS in our court, and WE must respond.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
As usual Prentis, your answers are horribly ambiguous. My second attempt was designed to cut through your pious sounding platitudes and get to the meat of the issue -- which you have been avoiding like the plague. Here it is again:
Do you agree or disagree with the following statement? I'll tell you right now that every one of your posts ooze with the principles found in it. If you disagree with the following statement, please explain why.
"If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema."
Do you agree or disagree with the following statement? I'll tell you right now that every one of your posts ooze with the principles found in it. If you disagree with the following statement, please explain why.
"If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema."
Prentis
New Member
It's only ambiguous if you can't understand a statement like 'the ball is in our court, and the response to the grace given is ours to give.' The post seems very clear to me, and knowing the arguments people bring against it, I know many people who understand very clearly what I said, whether they agree or not.
The spirit of the above statement is wrong. The one thing the statement implies I can agree with is that we choose to be faithful. God gives grace, we choose what we do with it.
But I greatly disagree with the bent of this statement, which seems to say we somehow receive some glory out of this, and 'God owes us' if we are faithful. It is much the opposite; if man is faithful, he has only done what is required, and nothing more, he has only done what he is supposed to do. We were made to give glory to God, being a faithful servant is simply what we should do, not some extra work that somehow makes us special. We remain always humble servants of the most high.
The spirit of the above statement is wrong. The one thing the statement implies I can agree with is that we choose to be faithful. God gives grace, we choose what we do with it.
But I greatly disagree with the bent of this statement, which seems to say we somehow receive some glory out of this, and 'God owes us' if we are faithful. It is much the opposite; if man is faithful, he has only done what is required, and nothing more, he has only done what he is supposed to do. We were made to give glory to God, being a faithful servant is simply what we should do, not some extra work that somehow makes us special. We remain always humble servants of the most high.
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