In our image..

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

So how long were YOU brainwashed at Kingdom Hall? Let me guess, many years?

I was brainwashed by churches that believed in the Trinity far many more years that I've been a Jehovah's Witness. Just as you believe Jehovah's Witnesses brainwash people I honestly believe it's the churches who believe in the Trinity that brainwash people.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Come on Barney. Tell us how long you left the Christian Faith for Kingdom Hall and "the everlasting fire"?

I told you the truth, but the people in the Trinity churches don't want to believe the truth, I know that.

 

[DanielConway]

OK that's IT. I want to state straight up and LOUDLY that I am not among those here who are pronouncing eternal judgement on the Jehova's Witnesses who post here, only a desire to engage and debate and present the trinitairian justification to those who are entertaining the two constructs before choosing one or the other.

 

[Aunty Jane]

How long were you brainwashed at Kingdom Hall?

Do you ever add anything to any thread that has a shred of credibility to it? Who brainwashed you?

You have obviously NEVER read the Bible because you don't have a clue what it says...so why bother commenting on something you know nothing about?
Why are you here when you contribute nothing of any importance to any post you respond to....?
This is a debate forum...if you can't debate what do you think you contribute?

You do not have a single credible defense for anything.....just these mindless jibes....seriously can't you think of something more constructive to do?

Your posts are a joke. ....please stop making a fool of yourself.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You're both pretty goofy.

No, not goofy.....just not mainstream....I can't speak for Wrangler, but I looked into the Bible in a very serious study that has lasted 50 years, and I still don't know it all, but the more I delve, the more gems I dig up. Its a never ending journey of discovery....

The questionable portion of the translation, the one presumably subject to doctrinal bias, is not the poetic alliterations of "God the father" and "Christ Jesus our savior", that portion of the translation is rendered with the same re-enforcing rhythm in every translation I am aware of, including the Mounce Interliner you quote. The portion of the translation that is subject to rethinking is the translation of kia as just the simple copulative "and" when the structure of the primary and secondary phrases strongly hint at a better meaning of "together with".

And yet after all that, there are no Bible translations that I could find that rendered it "together with"....can you tell me why? Should you visit all the Bible publishers and complain about their sloppy translation? Can you demand a revision?

And if I may address the issue of doctrinally influenced constructs, where does the typical average Jehova's Witness get the doctrinal point of Christ being some sort of first creation just below God but above the Angels? That's not in any of my translations.

Colossians 1:15-17....
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

So as God's "firstborn" he is the first of many "sons of God" who all serve their Creator in heaven. "Only begotten" refers to an only child, so what makes this son unique in the heavenly realm? He was the very first of God's creations, so nothing existed before him except the eternal Father who was his 'begetter'. He was the first and only direct creation of his God and Father. Always at his Father's right hand.....but strangely, there is never mention of the holy spirit being at his left.....

At Revelation 3:14, Jesus calls himself "the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation." It is "through" this unique son that God created all things. Jesus is not the Creator but the agency used by the Father, who is also his God. The pre-human Jesus was not only privileged to fabricate creation, but it was gifted to him as well.

Being "the image" of his God and Father, he represented him perfectly in human form. He said 'if you've seen me you've seen the Father also'.
Nothing he did was of his own volition but only what the Father had told him to do. He said..."Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise." (John 5:19)
If he was God, he couldn't say that.

Revelation 3:12 confirms that even in heaven, Jesus has a God.
"The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name."
If Jesus is God, how can he have a God in heaven?

Now let's address 1 Corinthians 8:6, which you conveniently only quoted half of:" yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live."

If you check out Post #50...I left out nothing. I quoted vs 5 and 6, which clearly states that collectively the apostles believed in only "one God, the Father" AND "one Lord Jesus Christ".

John 17:3, Jesus calls his Father "the only true God" without including himself....
Jesus is a "servant" of his God like all the other sons, (Acts 4:27) but is second in command next to his Father because he is the Commander of the angelic forces.
Matthew 25:31-32....
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."

On the night of his arrest he told Peter that he could request of his Father more than 12 legions of angels if he needed to (Matthew 26:53)...That puts Jesus below his Father but above the angels.
We will all be judged by him as God's appointed King....and there are only "sheep and goats".....Jesus knows which is which.

Again we find the same re-enforcing rhythm, only with a pendameter twice as long, as in Corinthians. You see koinania Greek was streety and slangy, and like a lot of modern slang it could express an idea through cockney style urban grease speak that might not show up well with a straightly literal rendering.

More excuses for bad translation?

Really mate, you expect us to believe that? Where did you copy and paste that from?

 

[face2face]

The simple Biblically verified reason why Titus uses the phrase "God our Savior" is because Jesus is God!

The issue here is your unwillingness to consider alternative interpretation which happens to be based in the text. You and I both know this account goes no way to provide you with trinity formula. If only you had an epistle or even a chapter dedicated to it but nothing.

 

[DanielConway]

Colossians 1:15-17....
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

The essential operative here is firstborn, which the Hebrew mind explicitly implies having ALL the rights and prerogatives of the Father, including full deity. Please note the following:

John 8
The works that I do in my Father’s name testify to me; 26 but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 What my Father has given me is greater than all else, and no one can snatch it out of the Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.’

31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus replied, ‘I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these are you going to stone me?’ 33 The Jews answered, ‘It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.’

Your entire "first created and most powerful spirit being" doctine hangs on Christ's status as a sub-being to your true God, but the Jews here, Jesus' target audience, knew exactly what he meant when he claimed God as Father and considered it Blasphamy it was so strong.

And yet after all that, there are no Bible translations that I could find that rendered it "together with"....can you tell me why? Should you visit all the Bible publishers and complain about their sloppy translation? Can you demand a revision?

This is verbal barking. OF COURSE Bible translations are updated with time to reflect evolution in the language of the target people group or new nuances in the target culture. Take for example the translation of Jesus' trade as "carpenter". When originally written that word implied simple manual labor, with low to mid range level training. Literally it is rendered "builder". Now the term carpenter has a ring of artisanship to it that is somewhat elitist and I have written to the folks at Wycliff suggesting that they render it "contractor", which is a much closer indicator of the work and culture attendant to the trade than the familiar "carpenter".

On the night of his arrest he told Peter that he could request of his Father more than 12 legions of angels if he needed to (Matthew 26:53)...That puts Jesus below his Father but above the angels.

Strong's concordience renders the Greek for request as:

Orig: from 3844 and 2564; to call near, i.e. invite, invoke (by imploration, hortation or consolation):--beseech, call for, (be of good) comfort, desire, (give) exhort(-ation), intreat, pray. G3844

Most of these do not carry a strong sense of subordination, and if the chosen word request does remember, it was an act of singular condensation for Christ to enter the world as a man and choose the use the ordinary means of spiritual sustenance to survive.
ASV
For we have not a high priest that cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but one that hath been in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Orig: from 3844 and 2564; to call near, i.e. invite, invoke (by imploration, hortation or consolation):--beseech, call for, (be of good) comfort, desire, (give) exhort(-ation), intreat, pray. G3844

More significantly, Strong renders the Greek for give as

paristémi: to place beside, to present, stand by, appear

None of these words carry even the very weak connotation of subordination that "give" does.

And finally the COMPLETE quote of John 17:3 which does in fact contain an explicit reference to Jesus:

John 17:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

And once again we see this jaunty, rythmic, almost lyrical compound coupling of the Father with the Son.

 

[Wrangler]

You're both pretty goofy.

So says the man who ran out of a cogent argument.

 

[Wrangler]

Oh wow! Kingdom Hall has invaded!

So says the man who ran out of a cogent argument.

 

[Wrangler]

The questionable portion of the translation

Typical. Just pretend only verses that can be read to support your doctrine exist. Ignore the vast ocean of the rest of Scripture.

They hang their hat on supposing Reading Comprehension is subjective. Turn around is fair play. How can the following verses be read?

1. 'For us, there is one God, the Father.'
2. God is the head of Christ.
3. God and Father of Jesus.
4. God raised his servant Jesus from the dead.

They can be read to reject the false, inherently contradictory and anti-Biblical doctrine of the trinity.

No comment on these 4 verses. It's like the explicit word of God matters not. The only thing to focus on is questionable portions. Sad.

 

[Jack]

Do you ever add anything to any thread that has a shred of credibility to it? Who brainwashed you?

It's called the Christian Bible that Kingdom Hall constantly tries to rewrite.

You have obviously NEVER read the Bible because you don't have a clue what it says...so why bother commenting on something you know nothing about

More Kindom Hall LIES!

Why are you here when you contribute nothing of any importance to any post you respond to....?

One reason I'm here is to point out Kingdom Hall's constant attacks on our Bible.

This is a debate forum...if you can't debate what do you think you contribute

So stop complaining and hurling insults and debate.

You do not have a single credible defense for anything.....just these mindless jibes....seriously can't you think of something more constructive to do?

Defending our Bible is being quite "constructive".

Your posts are a joke. ....please stop making a fool of yourself.

I don't think Jesus was joking when He warned us of "the everlasting fire", "Hell fire", "the Lake of Fire". Please stop attacking our Bible. That can only lead to Hell fire.

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Jack]

So says the man who ran out of a cogent argument.

If God isn't your Savior then you don't have a Savior.

Isaiah 43
11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.

John 14
8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father;

Jesus is God!

 

[Wrangler]

If God isn't your Savior then you don't have a Savior.

Exactly, which is not Jesus as he is a servant, an agent, a son of God.

 

[Jack]

Exactly, which is not Jesus as he is a servant, an agent, a son of God.

Did you really just say that Jesus isn't your Savior?

 

[Wrangler]

Did you really just say that Jesus isn't your Savior?

I just said God is my Savior and Jesus is his agent.

 

[Jack]

I just said God is my Savior and Jesus is his agent.

Jesus is the ONLY Savior! He is God.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus is the ONLY Savior! He is God.

Oy vey. Jesus said in Luke 4:8 ‘Worship the LORD your God and serve only him!’ ” NOTE: The singular pronoun, "him" not "me." Jesus did not say, "I am God. Serve me.

Jesus is not He who he serves. God - in his unitarian nature - is the only savior, who raised Jesus from the dead. This is the prerequisite to be saved.

So you will be saved, if you honestly say, “Jesus is Lord,” and if you believe with all your heart that God (in his unitarian nature) raised him from death.
Roman 10:9​

Our Savior, Jesus' Father, has many agents on his behalf. If course, Jesus is unique among God's servants, being the Lamb of God. However, it is his Father, the LORD God who commands Heavens Armies (Psalm 46:1-7).

For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways.
Psalm 91:11
For it is written, “‘He will command his angels concerning you, to guard you,’
Psalm 91:11
Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?
Hebrews 1:14
It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, ... things into which angels long to look.
1 Peter 1:12
'For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve' Matthew 20:28
​

 

[Earburner]

There is no doubt that the Father, the son and the holy spirit are all involved in our spiritual journey to salvation, but nowhere are the three said to be "one God". The apostles confirmed that their "one God" was Yahweh..."the Father". (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) Yahweh is the Father of Jesus as well as us, and hence the Lord's Prayer was addressed to "OUR Father". Yahweh is still his God, even in heaven. (Revelation 3:12)
Jesus himself called his Father "the only true God" (John 17:3) without including himself....and said he was "sent" by his Father.


Well, since the KJV is a translation of the original Koine Greek, what does it say by comparison?
Is that an accurate translation of John 1:1?
Here it is from the Mounce Interlinear....
You can see here a word for word translation into English.....

"1 In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos. . . . .

Do you notice the word "ho" in that verse four times?.......it means "the" as we can all see.....but when it comes to the one nameless God of the Jews, the Greeks identified him with the definite article "ho", calling him "THE God" to distinguish him from all other gods. (The Greeks were polytheists and all their gods had names. The one God of the Jews, at that time, did not.)

Although I can agree with your thinking, l am hesitant on thinking that Jesus Himself in eternity past, was a "creation" of God the Father.
We must remember that the Gift of God's salvation plan was kept secret/hidden by Him up until Jesus' first appearance, who was "the Promise" to come. Therefore, much of the OT scriptures define him in symbolism and in stories of allegory. That's what Jesus was pointing to: John 5[39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Also KJV Proverbs 8:22-31 is very descriptive of Jesus being "brought forth" [forward from out of God the Father] for the precise time that God the Father needed HIM FOR His purposes of their salvation plan for man.

So that you might gather from where I am coming from, according to "church-ianity", I might be considered to be a Progressive Binitarian Amillennialist.

Edit: I might add that we all should be aware that there have been two acts of God's creations.
1. The physical creation that is all born physically by God's created seeds for procreation of everything that is physically alive in this world.

2. The spiritual creation that is born of God Himself through Jesus, who dwells within Jesus' New resurrected body, being the Firstborn from the dead.

 

[Wrangler]

Although I can agree with your thinking, l am hesitant on thinking that Jesus Himself in eternity past, was a "creation" of God the Father.

It must be so if words have meaning. Son means to be a created being, created by a father.

A trinitarian claim is that God in heaven has one name and on Earth he has another name. There is no basis to suppose location dictates a name change.

 

[Earburner]

It must be so if words have meaning. Son means to be a created being, created by a father.

A trinitarian claim is that God in heaven has one name and on Earth he has another name. There is no basis to suppose location dictates a name change.

Symbolically, Jesus is being shown to be The Wisdom of God. Is your reply proving or disproving KJV Proverbs 8:22-24?