In our image..

[Wrangler]

Symbolically, Jesus is being shown to be The Wisdom of God. Is your reply proving or disproving KJV Proverbs 8:22-24?

My reply was only responding to you disregarding the fact that sons are created beings.

I don't understand the context of the symbolism of the wisdom of God statement as Scripture personifies wisdom as a lady. Indeed, in today's devotional reading in NRSV Cultural Study Bible, a study note said that the ancients tended to personify the character of God. Of course, personification does not actually mean God is a multi-person being. This is a fiction, having no Scriptural or epistemological basis. However, @Aunty Jane has made several posts showing the Pagan mythology connection to 3in1 beings.

(I wrote several paragraphs but want to make a power point). Generally speaking, trinitarians reject the common use of language regarding AGENCY. All prophets spoke God's words, spoke God's wisdom. It doesn't make them God.

Hope this helps.

 

[DanielConway]

Typical. Just pretend only verses that can be read to support your doctrine exist. Ignore the vast ocean of the rest of Scripture.



No comment on these 4 verses. It's like the explicit word of God matters not. The only thing to focus on is questionable portions. Sad.

Actually Wrangler I am aware that there has been a mass defection from your argue because of the cogency of my attacks on jailhouse doctrine and defense of the standard good old trinitarian doctro, as well as and perhaps especially because of a great deal of intercessory prayer that has gone up from the believers monitoring this disc. We haven't heard from Auntie Jane recently, don't tell me she fell out of bed!!

 

[Jack]

Oy vey. Jesus said in Luke 4:8 ‘Worship the LORD your God and serve only him!’ ” NOTE: The singular pronoun, "him" not "me." Jesus did not say, "I am God. Serve me.

Jesus is not He who he serves. God - in his unitarian nature - is the only savior, who raised Jesus from the dead. This is the prerequisite to be saved.

So you will be saved, if you honestly say, “Jesus is Lord,” and if you believe with all your heart that God (in his unitarian nature) raised him from death.
Roman 10:9​

Our Savior, Jesus' Father, has many agents on his behalf. If course, Jesus is unique among God's servants, being the Lamb of God. However, it is his Father, the LORD God who commands Heavens Armies (Psalm 46:1-7).

For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways.
Psalm 91:11
For it is written, “‘He will command his angels concerning you, to guard you,’
Psalm 91:11
Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?
Hebrews 1:14
It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, ... things into which angels long to look.
1 Peter 1:12
'For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve' Matthew 20:28
​

Jesus isn't your Savior? Are you Jewish?

 

[Aunty Jane]

The essential operative here is firstborn, which the Hebrew mind explicitly implies having ALL the rights and prerogatives of the Father, including full deity.

No sorry, that is not what it includes at all....you made up the last bit. There was only one deity in Jewish thought, and that was Yahweh. Nowhere is Jesus called Yahweh.

And "firstborn" to a Jew meant the first of many sons and daughters, since they all had large families.
"Begotten" means 'fathered' and Jesus had a Father, who was also his God....even in heaven. (Revelation 3:12)

Please note the following:

I have, many times....

John 8...I think you mean John 10....

"The works that I do in my Father’s name testify to me; 26 but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 What my Father has given me is greater than all else, and no one can snatch it out of the Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.’

Let's pause there.....
Why would Jesus (if he was God) not come in his own name? Why did Jesus need his Father to give him anything....since he was God in the flesh...couldn't he give it to himself?
And in saying that "the Father and I are one".....what does John 17:11 say?...

"Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one."

John 17:22..."I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one."
This is not promoting a trinity....but unity....unless you think the disciples are part of the godhead too?

"31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus replied, ‘I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these are you going to stone me?’ 33 The Jews answered, ‘It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.’"

What a shame you stopped there....the very next verse says...
"Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?"

What did Jesus call himself...? Here he had a perfect opportunity to declare that he was God incarnate because they were accusing him of blasphemy anyway....yet he simply told them that he was, "the son of God".

If you read those verses in the Greek Interlinear you will see that the Jews did NOT accuse Jesus of claiming to be Yahweh (ho theos) but simply "theos"..."a god". When he said that he was "the son of God", the Greek indicates that he was the son of "ho theos"...THE God...Yahweh.

You really need to do some more research as you tend to read right over things that are obvious to a serious Bible student.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Your entire "first created and most powerful spirit being" doctine hangs on Christ's status as a sub-being to your true God, but the Jews here, Jesus' target audience, knew exactly what he meant when he claimed God as Father and considered it Blasphamy it was so strong.

They considered it blasphemy for him to claim his divinity...his sonship...they would have stoned him there and then if he had claimed to be Yahweh!

Do you forget that the Jews had it in for Jesus and were trying to pin anything on him as an excuse to have him put to death?

This is verbal barking.

really....?

OF COURSE Bible translations are updated with time to reflect evolution in the language of the target people group or new nuances in the target culture. Take for example the translation of Jesus' trade as "carpenter". When originally written that word implied simple manual labor, with low to mid range level training. Literally it is rendered "builder". Now the term carpenter has a ring of artisanship to it that is somewhat elitist and I have written to the folks at Wycliff suggesting that they render it "contractor", which is a much closer indicator of the work and culture attendant to the trade than the familiar "carpenter".

Are you moving the goalposts now....what feeble reasoning is this? Or are you doing a little barking of your own?
How does this alter the fact that no English translation that I have ever seen renders the word "kai" in the verse under question, as anything but "and"?

On the night of his arrest he told Peter that he could request of his Father more than 12 legions of angels if he needed to (Matthew 26:53)...That puts Jesus below his Father but above the angels.

Strong's concordience renders the Greek for request as:

Orig: from 3844 and 2564; to call near, i.e. invite, invoke (by imploration, hortation or consolation):--beseech, call for, (be of good) comfort, desire, (give) exhort(-ation), intreat, pray. G3844

Most of these do not carry a strong sense of subordination, and if the chosen word request does remember, it was an act of singular condensation for Christ to enter the world as a man and choose the use the ordinary means of spiritual sustenance to survive.

What???

Again, what has this got to do with Jesus requesting more than 12 legions of angels from his Father? Why not summon them himself?
Why did angels need to administer comfort to Jesus on the night of his arrest?
Does God need to administer comfort to himself?

 

[Aunty Jane]

ASV
For we have not a high priest that cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but one that hath been in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Orig: from 3844 and 2564; to call near, i.e. invite, invoke (by imploration, hortation or consolation):--beseech, call for, (be of good) comfort, desire, (give) exhort(-ation), intreat, pray. G3844

Did you read what position Jesus holds right now? He is our "High Priest".....appointed by his God and Father to represent him to his disciples as an instructor and intercessor......they knew what the High Priest's role was. How can God be his own High Priest?

Jesus also holds the position of "the one Mediator between God and men"....if Jesus is God why don't we need a Mediator between us and himself?
There is just way too much evidence in the Bible to undo the trinity completely.

All it would take to settle this issue (which has raged for centuries)....is one clear statement from either Yahweh or his son to the effect that Father, son and holy spirit are three parts of God in one "godhead". Yet there is not a single one....every verse offered by trinitarians is either based on suggestion or inference, but never do we see clear statements about such an important issue.

More significantly, Strong renders the Greek for give as

paristémi: to place beside, to present, stand by, appear

None of these words carry even the very weak connotation of subordination that "give" does.

Another very weak argument....you really have no scripture to back up a thing you say....but trying to make words mean something that the scripture doesn't even imply.....unless of course you are trying to graft in something that was never there in the first place.

And finally the COMPLETE quote of John 17:3 which does in fact contain an explicit reference to Jesus:

John 17:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

And once again we see this jaunty, rythmic, almost lyrical compound coupling of the Father with the Son.

Sorry, but that is just pathetically funny...."jaunty, rythmic, almost lyrical".... says who?

And where is the third person of the trinity here....missing as usual. Do we not need to know "him" in order to gain eternal life?

Who sent Jesus Christ? If he is God then he must have sent himself.....yet is that what Jesus said? Who is the "only true God"......not Jesus.
Who was the clearly stated God of the apostles? Not Jesus. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

You will have to do a lot better than that if you think what you have posted so far is convincing in any way....

 

[Aunty Jane]

We haven't heard from Auntie Jane recently, don't tell me she fell out of bed!!

Nope, I just don't live in your time zone.....

Speaking of which, its time to hit the hay here in Oz...

 

[Jack]

No sorry, that is not what it includes at all....you made up the last bit. There was only one deity in Jewish thought, and that was Yahweh. Nowhere is Jesus called Yahweh.

And "firstborn" to a Jew meant the first of many sons and daughters, since they all had large families.
"Begotten" means 'fathered' and Jesus had a Father, who was also his God....even in heaven. (Revelation 3:12)


I have, many times....

John 8...I think you mean John 10....

"The works that I do in my Father’s name testify to me; 26 but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 What my Father has given me is greater than all else, and no one can snatch it out of the Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.’

Let's pause there.....
Why would Jesus (if he was God) not come in his own name? Why did Jesus need his Father to give him anything....since he was God in the flesh...couldn't he give it to himself?
And in saying that "the Father and I are one".....what does John 17:11 say?...

"Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one."

John 17:22..."I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one."
This is not promoting a trinity....but unity....unless you think the disciples are part of the godhead too?

"31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus replied, ‘I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these are you going to stone me?’ 33 The Jews answered, ‘It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.’"

What a shame you stopped there....the very next verse says...
"Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?"

What did Jesus call himself...? Here he had a perfect opportunity to declare that he was God incarnate because they were accusing him of blasphemy anyway....yet he simply told them that he was, "the son of God".

If you read those verses in the Greek Interlinear you will see that the Jews did NOT accuse Jesus of claiming to be Yahweh (ho theos) but simply "theos"..."a god". When he said that he was "the son of God", the Greek indicates that he was the son of "ho theos"...THE God...Yahweh.

You really need to do some more research as you tend to read right over things that are obvious to a serious Bible student.

If God isn't your Savior you don't have a Savior.
Hosea 13
4 You shall know no God but Me; For there is no Savior besides Me.

Jesus is God the ONLY Savior!

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus isn't your Savior? Are you Jewish?

My, but how desperate you are to put words into my mouth. Who saved you when you were drowning; the Coast Guard ensign who pulled you out of the water or his commander who sent the rescue ship?

Jesus is my savior but not THE savior. Jesus is my lord but not the LORD God. I am a Biblical Unitarian. Didn't we cover this before?

 

[DanielConway]

AMP
For we do not have a High Priest who is unable to sympathize and understand our weaknesses and temptations, but One who has been tempted [knowing exactly how it feels to be human] in every respect as we are, yet without [committing any] sin.
AMPC

Look, Christ came into the world to model humility and condescention FOR OUR SAKES, so we could see first hand the right way in importune God when we were in need. Take a moment and consider how Christ defended himself when he was tempted by the devil. In his divine prerogatives he could have crushed him like a nut, but he chose to quote scripture, the spiritual defense available to all believers, so he could show us how it was done. The same goes for Jesus' prayers to the Father! This is not fuoh humiity, but a genuine act of compassion that characterized Jesus entire life, becoming in every way man so man could see first hand how to obey and importune God!
condescention

 

[Wrangler]

If God isn't your Savior you don't have a Savior.
Hosea 13
4 You shall know no God but Me; For there is no Savior besides Me.

Jesus is God the ONLY Savior!

Ahem. Hosea is referring to God, not his Servant.

Does your Bible explicitly identify Jesus as the servant of God or not?

 

[Earburner]

My reply was only responding to you disregarding the fact that sons are created beings.

I don't understand the context of the symbolism of the wisdom of God statement as Scripture personifies wisdom as a lady. Indeed, in today's devotional reading in NRSV Cultural Study Bible, a study note said that the ancients tended to personify the character of God. Of course, personification does not actually mean God is a multi-person being. This is a fiction, having no Scriptural or epistemological basis. However, @Aunty Jane has made several posts showing the Pagan mythology connection to 3in1 beings.

(I wrote several paragraphs but want to make a power point). Generally speaking, trinitarians reject the common use of language regarding AGENCY. All prophets spoke God's words, spoke God's wisdom. It doesn't make them God.

Hope this helps.

"My reply was only responding to you disregarding the fact that sons are created beings."

Yes, I perceived that, but now you are trying to build a bridge to go somewhere else, other than what Jesus told us to do with OT scripture in John 5:39, and that is to look for Him in it among the words.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

As a matter of interest is this verse open to some interpretation?-
"Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness.." (Genesis 1:26)

The standard belief among Christians seems to be that God made us to look like him physically, i.e. he had a human body, yet Jesus said-
"God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24)
So how can a spirit have fleshly human form?
Perhaps we can therefore speculate that "in our image and our likeness" means something non-physical, and he made us to be like him spiritually, so that we have some of his attributes such as honour, decency, compassion etc?
PS- Incidentally why did God use the plural "our" in Gen 1:26, why didn't he say "in my image"?

"In Hebrew, the word translated "image" means "the likeness of one subject expressed in another."
We are made with a soul and spirit. Our soul, like God's soul, has a rational mind, will, emotions, creative talents, the invisble you. Our spirit is the life, love, joy, faith that communes with God. And obviously the soul and spirit are so highly integrated. But they are not the same if they can be divided. The Word is capable of dividing them. When we be ame a Christian, the Word divided our corrupted souls from our newly cleansed, born again spirit. The new creature is our spirit that can now commune with God. Animals do not have this spirit, they do have souls, but not rational minds. So as this new creature grows spiritually, we become Christlike, a reflection amd image of God. The following is just conjecture: Since God's Spirit is said to be non-physical, can we rule out our physical body as made in His image? Maybe not. Likely in the spiritual realm, our Father must appear to be more than some invisible force without form, just a brilliant flame of fire on His throne. Jesus communicates with Him, looks at Him and sees a person, like Jesus.

 

[Jack]

My, but how desperate you are to put words into my mouth. Who saved you when you were drowning; the Coast Guard ensign who pulled you out of the water or his commander who sent the rescue ship?

Jesus is my savior but not THE savior. Jesus is my lord but not the LORD God. I am a Biblical Unitarian. Didn't we cover this before?

Seriously? Sounds like YOU are the one who is "drowning". There's ONLY one Savior. And that's Jesus, God manifested in the flesh.

1 Timothy 3
God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

 

[Jack]

Ahem. Hosea is referring to God, not his Servant.

Does your Bible explicitly identify Jesus as the servant of God or not?

Did you even read Hosea? If Jesus isn't God you don't have a Savior. God says there's only one Savior. You say you have two.
Hosea 13
4 You shall know no God but Me; For there is no Savior besides Me.

 

[Wrangler]

"My reply was only responding to you disregarding the fact that sons are created beings."

Yes, I perceived that, but now you are trying to build a bridge to go somewhere else, other than what Jesus told us to do with OT scripture in John 5:39, and that is to look for Him in it among the words.

Not at all. Scripture directly says Jesus is the long awaited Messiah, God’s Anointed. He’s jus not God.

 

[Wrangler]

Seriously?

Yes. You cannot answer a question with a question. The question to you sir is Who saved you when you were drowning; the Coast Guard ensign who pulled you out of the water or his commander who sent the rescue ship?

 

[Taken]

As a matter of interest is this verse open to some interpretation?-
"Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness.." (Genesis 1:26)

The standard belief among Christians seems to be that God made us to look like him physically, i.e. he had a human body, yet Jesus said-
"God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24)
So how can a spirit have fleshly human form?
Perhaps we can therefore speculate that "in our image and our likeness" means something non-physical, and he made us to be like him spiritually, so that we have some of his attributes such as honour, decency, compassion etc?
PS- Incidentally why did God use the plural "our" in Gen 1:26, why didn't he say "in my image"?

Because the WHOLE of God, IS His WILL, His POWER, His WORD...
When He says “OUR”, it is our NOTICE, His Will, Power, Word ARE ALL IN Agreement.

Each man also, Has a will, power word. <—-> LIKENESS.
Each man also, Has A body, eyes, nose, mouth, hands, etc.<-> IMAGE.

Men often, and apparently QUITE OFTEN (implied the by Amount of Pharmakia that is routinely dispensed and consumed)...HAVE an unlikeness within themselves of Disagreement... (whereby their will, power and word) are NOT all in Agreement.
* Ie. Heart/Mind believes this, but Word says the opposite.
* Ie. Word says this, but Heart/Mind believes the opposite.
^ inner Conflict.
Medical Field, has a whole list of diagnosis’...imbalance, bipolar, mentally ill, anxiety, etc.

Yes, God IS Spirit, (Jn 4:24) and God HAS “Spirits”, (Rev 3:1)

Man HAS a “spirit”. (Zech 12:1) Mans “natural spirit”, IS: his TRUE THOUGHTS “in” his Heart.

When a man becomes CONVERTED “IN” Christ.
Part of that Conversion involves “Circumcision”...OF the Heart.
He gives you a NEW HEART, and His SEED, that birth you a NEW SPIRIT, a SPIRIT of TRUTH, which is the TRUTH about the Lord God Almighty.

Ezek.18
[31] Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
(MAKE you a new heart and new spirit)

Ezek.36
[26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
(GIVE you a new heart and new spirit)

The WILL of God, that you be Given.
The POWER of God, Gives.
The MAKER of God, Is the Word that Pronounces YOU Receive.

John 14:
[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[DanielConway]

No sorry, that is not what it includes at all....you made up the last bit. There was only one deity in Jewish thought, and that was Yahweh. Nowhere is Jesus called Yahweh.

And "firstborn" to a Jew meant the first of many sons and daughters, since they all had large families.
"Begotten" means 'fathered' and Jesus had a Father, who was also his God....even in heaven. (Revelation 3:12)


I have, many times....

John 8...I think you mean John 10....

"The works that I do in my Father’s name testify to me; 26 but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 What my Father has given me is greater than all else, and no one can snatch it out of the Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.’

Let's pause there.....
Why would Jesus (if he was God) not come in his own name? Why did Jesus need his Father to give him anything....since he was God in the flesh...couldn't he give it to himself?
And in saying that "the Father and I are one".....what does John 17:11 say?...

"Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one."

John 17:22..."I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one."
This is not promoting a trinity....but unity....unless you think the disciples are part of the godhead too?

"31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus replied, ‘I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these are you going to stone me?’ 33 The Jews answered, ‘It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.’"

What a shame you stopped there....the very next verse says...
"Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?"

What did Jesus call himself...? Here he had a perfect opportunity to declare that he was God incarnate because they were accusing him of blasphemy anyway....yet he simply told them that he was, "the son of God".

If you read those verses in the Greek Interlinear you will see that the Jews did NOT accuse Jesus of claiming to be Yahweh (ho theos) but simply "theos"..."a god". When he said that he was "the son of God", the Greek indicates that he was the son of "ho theos"...THE God...Yahweh.
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

You really need to do some more research as you tend to read right over things that are obvious to a serious Bible student.

Hmm... I'll ignore all the toothless sarcasm you are causing self inflicted wounds to your credibility with and ask you to explain Hebrews 13:

8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

This couplet is used EXCLUSIVELY for God throughout scripture.

 

[Jack]

Yes. You cannot answer a question with a question. The question to you sir is Who saved you when you were drowning; the Coast Guard ensign who pulled you out of the water or his commander who sent the rescue ship?

Jesus / God saved me when I was drowning in sin. There's only one true Savior.