In response to a question I was asked. Who created OSAS.

[Eternally Grateful]

In Greek it isn't past tense, at all. The past tense is due to English not having a good way to translate perfect-participles.

Have you ever read the novel Pilgrim's Progress? I feel it does a good job explaining salvation. When one is "saved" they are put on the path of safety.

this is not very encouraging.

If I am just put on a path of safety and still left on my own, really what hope do I have. since I failed miserably before. what would make me think I would not fail after.

The word saved in the gree literally means to be rescued. The question is. what am I rescued from?

what is the good news?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I merely answered your question. It's a fact-- Who created osas? You then make light of

But you evidently failed to read my posts. Or you would have understood. God created the thought of once saved always saved. Not man.

Man may use an acronym,, But men use words all the time. Trinity is one good example. You may not see the word trinity in the bible. But it can be proven.

His doctrine? That's quite comical. I suppose you would have to answer your own question with the late 19th century-early 20th (Southern Baptists).

Why would I. I already answered it with scripture. The purpose of my thread was to get us to stop looking at doctrines created by men. and look at biblical truths created by God.

I'm not a Calvinist, but I'll take a wild stab at your issue- the word, persevere? too harsh for you?

Do you also have a problem with these verses?

----
Romans 2:6-8
God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

Note- kjv says "patient continuance" same meaning.
----
Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
--------------
Galatians 6:9
And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.
---------------------
Matthew 24:13
But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved
-----------------------
Luke 21:19
“By your endurance you will gain your lives.
------------------
James 1:3-4
because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Allow perseverance to finish its work, so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.



Are you aware that there are sufferings, trials, disciplines and persecutions? Persevere in the faith to the end is the right word.
Didn't Paul describe it as running a race for a prize? Do races require endurance?

There is more to the scriptures than just believing- we then enter a race, and if we hold fast to the end we will be saved.
You call that works? I call it enduring. So do the scriptures.
Does Jesus help us - absolutely! And we can draw from His strength. and do all things through Him who strengthens us.
That requires an enduring cooperation.

You've misinterpreted this-

2 Timothy 2:12-13
12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.


This does not mean what you stated. It clearly says, if we deny Him - He will deny us-
Paul is reiterating what Jesus taught--
But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. matt 10:33

I tell you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will also confess him before the angels of God. / But whoever denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.- Luke 12:8

He always remains faithful to HIMSELF. Can a person without faith please God?
-----------------------------
I normally do not involve myself in threads with people that want to argue osas.

I HAVE argued with Behold who teaches no matter what you do- no matter how awfully you live and return to the world 100%- denying Christ until death-
- you are saved-
NONSENSE.
You will know them BY THEIR FRUITS.

Yawn

Yes. If we want to bear fruit. Live lives that Please God. See the fruit of our labor. Have Gold silver precious stones on judgment day and Not Wood Hay and straw. watching all our works burned. We need to endure.


But to get saved, Stay saved or keep from losing salvation. If you say we must endure to the end. You are cutting out grace. and adding works. It is you saving yourself. Not you allowing God to save you.


Try learning the difference between being justified. and being sanctified (christian growth) Maybe this will help.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Of course seals can be broken. But the bugaboo here is that folks don't know who or what "Israel" was or is, and so wander off into heresies...

Well I do not think God left us waundering in prophecy so we can not know

Israel are the 12 children of Israel. or Jacob. And all of their offspring.

God made a covenant with Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

He gave them gifts and he gave them a possession He called that nation for a specific purpose, and as Paul said in romans 11. The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

God does not go back on his promises. When he says I will. he does.

If God does not keep his promise to Israel, I have no assurance he will keep his promise with me, He is nto a God who can be trusted

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's unexpectedly hard to answer.

it is?

There's a way of reckoning Israel spiritually, and a way of reckoning Israel physically, and they aren't the same. Throw in the divided kingdom after Solomon's death to convolute it a little. Throw in all the foreign people who joined themselves to Israel and called themselves Israelites even though they weren't (aren't).

It turns out that "who is an Israelite?" was a topic of debate back in Jesus' day. One major branch of the Pharisees held that it was determined by paternity, and genealogies. Another house wanted to reckon it by maternity, as paternity is not always reliable.

Jesus rejected both of those positions, and instead taught that we can tell who a true child of Abraham is by looking at their actions.

John 8:39 Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

What Promise did God give to Abraham Issaac and Jacob (Israel)

Is this promise still valid. or has God went back on his word. Since it was an I WILL promise. and not a If you do this, I will

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There are verses that are written like that, in the past tense, that's probably why people say "I'm saved".
Someone gave a good explanation that has made me understand it better. Christ brought the beggining of the process of salvation. The end of that process is still to come

God bless

The issue is, the end is assured.

You can not say a person is saved. By Gods mercy, if in the end, he may not be saved.

I am saved. I have eternal life. I have been given every spiritual blessing, I have been seated in the heavenlies. I have been justified, My sins have been atoned, I have remmision, I have forgiveness.

What I do not have is my glorified body. that is yet to come. While yes. My salvation will be complete then. There is a process inbetween that God calls sanctification, or as we call it. christian growth.

The author of hebrews helps. By one offering (the lamb of God on the cross) he has perfected forever (saved or justified) those who are being sanctified (christian growth)

and we know with confidence, He who began a good work in us will complete it.

If we do not have faith in this.. We really have no hope. we are left again as we were before. in a state os having to preserve self.. And I would ask myselt. What ability do I have to preserve myself. what does it look like. what is the process. and what do I have to do.

this takes the focus off Grace. and puts it on works..

in effect. it puts us under law.. in which case. Again ask myself. Do I keep the just requirment of the law?

If I answer yes. I am decieved (If I say I have no sin I decieve myself and there is no truth in me 1 john 1: 8)

 

[Armour of God]

The issue is, the end is assured.

You can not say a person is saved. By Gods mercy, if in the end, he may not be saved.

I am saved. I have eternal life. I have been given every spiritual blessing, I have been seated in the heavenlies. I have been justified, My sins have been atoned, I have remmision, I have forgiveness.

What I do not have is my glorified body. that is yet to come. While yes. My salvation will be complete then. There is a process inbetween that God calls sanctification, or as we call it. christian growth.

The author of hebrews helps. By one offering (the lamb of God on the cross) he has perfected forever (saved or justified) those who are being sanctified (christian growth)

and we know with confidence, He who began a good work in us will complete it.

If we do not have faith in this.. We really have no hope. we are left again as we were before. in a state os having to preserve self.. And I would ask myselt. What ability do I have to preserve myself. what does it look like. what is the process. and what do I have to do.

this takes the focus off Grace. and puts it on works..

in effect. it puts us under law.. in which case. Again ask myself. Do I keep the just requirment of the law?

If I answer yes. I am decieved (If I say I have no sin I decieve myself and there is no truth in me 1 john 1: 8)

If one has good faith but lives a life of bad deeds and unrepentant sin, will he be saved?

Clue. All will be judged according to their deeds both good and bad

It's better to have good deeds than bad deeds. And considering we will be judged, salvation has not happened yet to anyone on earth, it is a future event.

Believing one is already saved before it's even happened has a feeling of arrogance and pride to it. Its a massive assumption. Satan's favourite sin is pride so be careful and keep up those good deeds my friend cos the bible says we will be judged

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If one has good faith but lives a life of bad deeds and unrepentant sin, will he be saved?

Is he saved if he lives in sin. My bible says they have never known or seen God.

1 John 3: 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

so no. that person is not saved, he was never saved.

Clue. All will be judged according to their deeds both good and bad

yes.

the dead will be judged and cast to hell

the living will be judged and recieve reward. Gold silver precious stone, wood hay and straw..

But they will not be at the judment for the dead.

It's better to have good deeds than bad deeds. And considering we will be judged, salvation has not happened yet to anyone on earth, it is a future event.

You can not have enough good deeds my friend. even one bad deed done by accident is enough to condemn you where you stand..

Believing one is already saved before it's even happened has a feeling of arrogance and pride to it. Its a massive assumption. Satan's favourite sin is pride so be careful and keep up those good deeds my friend cos the bible says we will be judged

Believing one has to work to add to the cross and earn his salvation by his works is a feeling of arrogance and pride.

One is like the tax collector.. Jesus said he went home justified (saved)

one is like the pharisee. pumping his chest of how good he is and praising God he is not like the sinner. He will not be justified.

 

[Armour of God]

Is he saved if he lives in sin. My bible says they have never known or seen God.

1 John 3: 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

so no. that person is not saved, he was never saved.

yes.

the dead will be judged and cast to hell

the living will be judged and recieve reward. Gold silver precious stone, wood hay and straw..

But they will not be at the judment for the dead.

You can not have enough good deeds my friend. even one bad deed done by accident is enough to condemn you where you stand..

Believing one has to work to add to the cross and earn his salvation by his works is a feeling of arrogance and pride.

One is like the tax collector.. Jesus said he went home justified (saved)

one is like the pharisee. pumping his chest of how good he is and praising God he is not like the sinner. He will not be justified.

I disagree.
Faith and good deeds go hand in hand.
As James said, faith without deeds is dead.

And if we are to be judged, lile you agreed, then better to have good deeds than bad deeds and also to repent for our sins as Jesus taught us to do.

You seem to be claiming that you never sin, not even by accident. I doubt that

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I disagree.

You disagree with John? Who said whoever sins has never seen or known God?

why would you do that

Faith and good deeds go hand in hand.
As James said, faith without deeds is dead.

Yes. If I have faith, I am born again, If I am born again, I can no longer continue in sin. If I claim I am born again, yet continue in sin. I am decieved..

And if we are to be judged, lile you agreed, then better to have good deeds than bad deeds and also to repent for our sins as Jesus taught us to do.

yes. I want gold silver and precious stone. not wood hay and straw that will turn to ash.

But I am saved from eternal judgment. Because Jesus paid it all

You seem to be claiming that you never sin, not even by accident. I doubt that

I never made even close to that suggestion.

Nor did John

If we claim we have no sin, we decieve ourselves and there is no truth in us.

When john speaks about a person living in sin, he is talking about that. Not a person who os growing in Christ. and sin. But a person who has a lifestyle of sin..

You asked if a person was saved, and turns to a lifestyle of sin if they are saved.

John said they have never known God.. so how could they be saved?

 

[Wick Stick]

this is not very encouraging.

If I am just put on a path of safety and still left on my own, really what hope do I have. since I failed miserably before. what would make me think I would not fail after.

Well, following after Pilgrim's Progress, there's a well-marked path to follow. All one has to do is follow it to remain safe. That idea also seems to have a Biblical basis:

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Alternately, just follow the book of Ephesians to its conclusion. Near the end of chapter 6, salvation is described as a helmet. The believer is told to 'put on the whole armour of God,' and fight.

The word saved in the greek literally means to be rescued. The question is. what am I rescued from?

The root word (σῴζω) means 'save.' The word derived from it in Ephesians 2 (σεσῳσμένοι) is usually translated 'healed.'

Again, if you read the whole chapter, there is another word used to describe exactly the same thing. That word (συνεζωοποίησεν) is 'quickened' or 'brought to life.' The Ephesians are 'saved' or 'healed' from being dead.

what is the good news?

The kingdom of God is here. God is present, and active, and works through us. Unity between God and man establishes His kingdom. We have become His body - His hands and feet to work here in the world. We are his temple and a royal priesthood. He is enthroned among us, in our hearts and minds. (These statements are equivalent when understood)

 

[Wick Stick]

What Promise did God give to Abraham Issaac and Jacob (Israel)

It starts with "I will be your shield and very great reward" in Genesis 15, which is a promise of both protection and financial support. Abraham also asked for a Son. God granted him not only a son (Isaac), but also that he would become "a father of nations" and also that The Son would come from his lineage.

Is this promise still valid. or has God went back on his word. Since it was an I WILL promise. and not a If you do this, I will

Some of the promise has been kept/performed. Isaac existed. Jesus existed. Abraham continues to be made a "father of nations" when those who believe like Abraham are adopted under Abraham and his Seed. That part of the promise is something we continue to interact with.

Also, Abraham's covenant was not unconditional. He was required to leave his father's house and travel into an unknown land. God's terms were "walk before me and be thou perfect." While Abraham did not live a sinless life to fulfill these terms, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness."

The deal today is the same. Those who believe like Abraham are adopted under Abraham's Seed, that is Jesus.

 

[Armour of God]

You disagree with John?

No I disagree with you.
I said faith and deeds go hand in hand.
I am not in disagreement with scripture.

Do you disagree with James?
In James 2:26 he says
"Faith without deeds is dead"

Do you disagree with Paul?
In 2 Corinthians 5:10 he says
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad"

Do you disagree with the bible?
It clearly says we will be judged on our deeds.
Therefore I keep away from bad deeds and repent for my sins. I would advise the same to anyone

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, following after Pilgrim's Progress, there's a well-marked path to follow. All one has to do is follow it to remain safe. That idea also seems to have a Biblical basis:

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

are you running in an attempt to save yourself

or running in an attempt to earn a reward?

Alternately, just follow the book of Ephesians to its conclusion. Near the end of chapter 6, salvation is described as a helmet. The believer is told to 'put on the whole armour of God,' and fight.

The root word (σῴζω) means 'save.' The word derived from it in Ephesians 2 (σεσῳσμένοι) is usually translated 'healed.'

Again, if you read the whole chapter, there is another word used to describe exactly the same thing. That word (συνεζωοποίησεν) is 'quickened' or 'brought to life.' The Ephesians are 'saved' or 'healed' from being dead.

The kingdom of God is here. God is present, and active, and works through us. Unity between God and man establishes His kingdom. We have become His body - His hands and feet to work here in the world. We are his temple and a royal priesthood. He is enthroned among us, in our hearts and minds. (These statements are equivalent when understood)

Yes.

I am saved.. I am not trying to save myself. God already completed that task.

Now I am running the race trying to do all I can for God. until he brings me home. when I will recieve the end of my salvation..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It starts with "I will be your shield and very great reward" in Genesis 15, which is a promise of both protection and financial support. Abraham also asked for a Son. God granted him not only a son (Isaac), but also that he would become "a father of nations" and also that The Son would come from his lineage.

Actually he promised much more

In genesis 12. He promised abraham land, A nation would be made from him, He will make his name great, and he will be a blessing to all nations.

12 Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

In gen 15. He made these promises, He would have an heir which came from his own body, He would have so many descendents it would be as the stars is of the heaven (from this heir) And he would have this land.

4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” 5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
8 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

Then in Gen 17 he made thiese promises - I will multiply you excedingly, You shall be the father of many nations, This covenant will be established forever, I will make nations of you and kings, And he gave them all the land of Canaan.

2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be [d]Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

Some of the promise has been kept/performed. Isaac existed. Jesus existed. Abraham continues to be made a "father of nations" when those who believe like Abraham are adopted under Abraham and his Seed. That part of the promise is something we continue to interact with.

God called these promises eternal. If eternity has not ended. the promises are still in effect.

Also, Abraham's covenant was not unconditional. He was required to leave his father's house and travel into an unknown land. God's terms were "walk before me and be thou perfect." While Abraham did not live a sinless life to fulfill these terms, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness."

The deal today is the same. Those who believe like Abraham are adopted under Abraham's Seed, that is Jesus.

It was unconditional.

He did not say if you do this I will do that. He said I give you. In gen 15. He put abraham to sleep. And he walked through the covenant of promise. declaring I give.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No I disagree with you.

But you disagreed with john.

I said faith and deeds go hand in hand.
I am not in disagreement with scripture.

And I agreed with you.

Do you disagree with James?
In James 2:26 he says
"Faith without deeds is dead"

yes I agree. Is this person saved? No. Was he ever saved? No.

We are saved by grace through faith.. I can claim I have faith all i want. if it is not real. I am not saved

Do you disagree with Paul?
In 2 Corinthians 5:10 he says
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad"

yes. this is the bema seat judgment, I already mentioned it. Gold silver precious stones, wood hay and straw.

I will not be at the great white throne judgment.. I have been rescued from this wrath.

Do you disagree with the bible?
It clearly says we will be judged on our deeds.
Therefore I keep away from bad deeds and repent for my sins. I would advise the same to anyone

Yes.

I will be judged by my deeds.

Either cast to hell

Or saved by grace through faith and as a believer I will be rewarded for my works.. or see my works burned up in fire..

 

[Wick Stick]

are you running in an attempt to save yourself

or running in an attempt to earn a reward?

Neither. The running in Heb 12 is done because we are following after Jesus. See the previous chapter, which is all about faith.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Neither. The running in Heb 12 is done because we are following after Jesus. See the previous chapter, which is all about faith.

your either running to recieve a reward (salvation)

Or you are already saved and running to recieve a reward (which is why I am running, and why Paul ran)


there are no other reasons to continue to run

 

[Wick Stick]

It was unconditional.

He did not say if you do this I will do that. He said I give you. In gen 15. He put abraham to sleep. And he walked through the covenant of promise. declaring I give.

If it was unconditional, Esau would have inherited the promises. He did not.

 

[Wick Stick]

your either running to recieve a reward (salvation)

Or you are already saved and running to recieve a reward (which is why I am running, and why Paul ran)

there are no other reasons to continue to run

You're just flat wrong. Read the chapter.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If it was unconditional, Esau would have inherited the promises. He did not.

No it would not. Because esau was not the child of the promise. Jacob was.. God does not work in ways we think. He does things his own way.

Genesis 25:23
And the Lord said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”

Gods promise, I will make nations of you. Here are two nations.

Of these two nations. One was the promised one (jacob) not the other.

still fulfilled.

Jacob's name was changed to Israel. and the promise was given to him, First Abraham, Then Isaac, Then Jacob. then Jacobs 12 sons.