In the book of Revelation it mentions 'a little season' twice.

[Ronald D Milam]

I don't care whether you have been preaching 140 years, you are wrong. You have nothing to bring to the table. That is why you cannot address any single rebuttal.

Sure, but you guys will be in Heaven scratching your head as to why you were all wrong on everything END TIMES, and the reason is simple, stay on your lane, find your calling, prophesy is not your calling, or you would not be wrong on everything end times.

 

[ewq1938]

Right, but that’s the whole point I’m trying to make. In the Premil view, statements just like you’re making now will also be made to deceive people during Satan’s little season.

Place yourself in Satan’s little season for a moment, what would your counter argument be to someone who said “The actual second coming with the resurrection of the saved dead from all human history happens before the Mill starts, and none of that has happened. It's impossible to be in satan's little season. Just as impossible that we are living in the eternal age in Rev 21-22”?

Keep in mind that if you argue it’s impossible for someone to be deceived about a millennium that just happened then you are also arguing that Satan can’t deceive people in the same manner as is currently happening with all the different views on the millennium.

Sorry, but the dead not being resurrected and immortal and ruling here means we cannot be in satan's little season. Massive events that change humanity and the world forever simply have not happened yet.

Also consider what happened after Jesus arose in Matthew 28.

Why? That was a small event, clearly before the Resurrection at the second coming. Why consider something that is not valid evidence?

This verse directly applies to this conversation:


2Ti_2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

If the second coming happened, then the resurrection happened and it didn't happen but teaching the second coming happened means you re teaching the resurrection happened and that harms people's faith. That is a serious thing.

 

[Berean]

The question is, is the little season recorded in A) meaning the same little season recorded in B)? Because if it is, it would be absurd for any Premil to insist that this does not prove Amil in that case.

They are the same words, meaning a limited time, but they do not refer to the same thing. Rev 6:11 speaks of the death and resurrection of the Church. Rev 20:3 speaks of the time between Satan is let loose to deceive the nations.

 

[WPM]

Sure, but you guys will be in Heaven scratching your head as to why you were all wrong on everything END TIMES, and the reason is simple, stay on your lane, find your calling, prophesy is not your calling, or you would not be wrong on everything end times.

You are full of pride and ignorance.

 

[WPM]

.. and the other guy has 40 years experience teaching the Word of God. But you have learned nothing in 25 years. Nothing to brag about. At least the guy whose been a preacher for 40 years has learned something. Your modus operandi is avoidance to a far greater extent than anyone else's. Your mind is closed until further notice. In other words, until the millennium begins Till then your mind is closed to any truthful interpretation of scripture regarding the Kingdom of God and of His Christ. As though claiming there is no objectivity with anyone else means you do not lack the objectivity you claim they lack. (I can just shake my head).

This reinforces my last post.

 

[Zao is life]

In the 5th Trumpet of Revelation 9, the “falling star” symbolizes the unfaithful church — the fallen messenger — who opens the bottomless pit because of her rebellion. This ties directly to God's warning in Revelation 2, where He says that if the Church does not remember from where she has fallen, judgment will come.

By opening this “bottomless pit,” the fallen church unleashes spiritual chaos — a symbolic Pandora’s box. The “smoke” that rises from the pit represents false doctrine, which darkens the “sun” (symbolizing Christ) and the “air” (the Holy Spirit). This false teaching clouds spiritual truth and leads to widespread deception. Righteousness becomes unrighteousness. The one ruling this pit is Satan himself, not in angelic form, but as a spirit. He is Apollyon (Greek) or Abaddon (Hebrew), both meaning destruction. He doesn't send Apollyon — he "is" Apollyon and Abaddon. He is the king over this demonic host and brings spiritual death to the unsealed, unfaithful within the congregation as he is going to force them to receive his mark - the mark of the beast.

Most of what you say in this post I don't agree with, but I partially agree with the above part, because the metaphor in scripture is always constant:

THE SUN

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. (Psalms 19:1-6)

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts. (Malachi 1:11)

The mighty God, even YHWH, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof. Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined. (Psalms 50:1-2)

But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. (Malachi 4:2)

THE SUN AND THE MOON

Psalms 89:3-4 & 35-37
I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

Isaiah 30:26 (Metaphor and Hyperbole):
Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

THE STARS

And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in YHWH; and he counted it to him for righteousness. (Genesis 15:5-6)

That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. (Genesis 22:17-18).

And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? (Genesis 37:9-10)

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars. (Revelation of John 12:1)

Zebulun and Naphtali were a people that jeoparded their lives unto the death in the high places of the field. The kings came and fought, then fought the kings of Canaan in Taanach by the waters of Megiddo; they took no gain of money. They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera. (Judges 5:18-20)

And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. (Daniel 12:3)

TRIBULATION COMING UPON THE SAINTS

Daniel 8:9-10
"And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them."

It's talking about Antiochus IV Epiphanes' and his war against the saints, i.e the Jews of his time, and the apostasy ("falling from the heavens") of many Jews which took place at the time: Antiochus IV Epiphanes placing an abomination of desolation in the holy place is the chief biblical type of the man of sin of 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2.

Revelation 6:13-14
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. (Revelation 6:11-13)

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. (Isaiah 13:9-10)

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (Matthew 24:29)

THE AIR

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:8

So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. (1 Corinthians 14:9)

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: (Ephesians 2:2)

And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. (Revelation 9:2)

And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. (Revelation 9:11)

 

[Zao is life]

Sure, but you guys will be in Heaven scratching your head as to why you were all wrong on everything END TIMES, and the reason is simple, stay on your lane, find your calling, prophesy is not your calling, or you would not be wrong on everything end times.

Says another person who's not right about everything end times.

If someone thinks prophecy (prophecy, not prophesy) is his calling then he may not even find himself scratching his head in heaven. We all have only one calling, and it's not prophecy, but when it comes to biblical prophecy, for much of the interpretations the preacher has of various prophetic portions of scripture there is another preacher with as much experience with a different - and possibly correct - interpretation, i.e one that disagrees with yours.

No one needs to be a preacher to discover that great tribulation is not called "the" great tribulation (o megas thlipsis) in any one of the only three times Jesus mentioned megas thlipsis - it's never preceded by the definite article - and each time it was Jesus Himself speaking about great tribulation, i.e Jesus Himself talking about a coming megas thlipsis - not the preacher who interprets (and in your case misinterprets) His words.

You want to be sure you know what message HE is giving HIS SAINTS (NOT YOUR SAINTS) before you continue to preach prophecy.

Once you have searched for how many times the word thlipsis in the New Testament is talking about a tribulation that is the experience of apostles or of Christians and compared it with how many times it isn't, then you can ask yourself why each one of the only three times it's adjective is megas, it was Jesus talking about a coming great tribulation.

I'll help the preacher who in 40 years has probably never done an exercise he should have done before he started preaching and regarding himself as "called" to teach prophecy:

Persecution of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11.

Persecution of "the woman" who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13.

Tribulation: There are only two verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.
2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

TRIBULATION OF APOSTLES OR CHRISTIANS:-

Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14.

GREAT TRIBULATION
[Greek: mégas thlîpsis]​

Mentioned only three times in the New Testament (each time Jesus spoke of it):-

Third mention: "After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb.

And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come? And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation [mégas thlîpsis] and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them. They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes." -- Revelation 7:9-10, 13-15.

First mention: "For then shall be great tribulation [megas thlipsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." -- Matthew 24:21-22

Second mention: "Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds." -- Revelation 2:21

****************************​

* Luke 21:23 uses the word wrath [orgḗ] to describe what was to come upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem (not the word tribulation):

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress [anánkē] in the land and wrath [orgḗ] on this people."

* The Revelation uses the words orge and thumos (wrath) to describe what is to come upon the nations at the hand of an angry God (not the word tribulation).

****************************​

 

[Ronald D Milam]

If someone thinks prophecy (prophecy, not prophesy) is his calling then he may not even find himself scratching his head in heaven.

Both are correct, one is a noun the other a verb. I still believe there is a ministry of prophesy, as Paul says in 1 Cor. 12.

We all have only one calling, and it's not prophecy, but when it comes to biblical prophecy, for much of the interpretations the preacher has of various prophetic portions of scripture there is another preacher with as much experience with a different - and possibly correct - interpretation, i.e one that disagrees with yours.

We all have different callings, one is a hand, and shouldn't try to be a foot etc. etc.

1 Cor. 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.....14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

So, Paul was very clear, we all have different callings some are teachers, some prophesy guys (which means an active prophesying like Brother Black on Youtube, some are also just called to interpret prophecy), some called to healing ministries etc. etc. so of course we al have different callings on our lives.

Great tribulation is not called "the" great tribulation (o megas thlipsis) in any one of the only three times Jesus mentioned megas thlipsis - it's never preceded by the definite article - and each time it was Jesus Himself speaking, and Jesus Himself talking about a coming megas thlipsis - not the preacher who interprets (and in your case misinterprets) His words.

Well, my 1611 Greek Online version shows no such THE.....you have been duped by other versions that added it in, AND it wouldn't matter if it was in the text anyway. The Church Age and The 70th Week and The Greatest Ever Troubles can all use THE, so that argument has always been nonsensical to me tbh.

Rev 7:13 And 2532 one 1520 of 1537 the x3588 elders 4245 answered, 611 z5662 saying 3004 z5723 unto me, 3427 What 5101 are 1526 z5748 these 3778 which y3588 are arrayed x4016 in y4016 z5772 white 3022 robes? 4749 and 2532 whence 4159 came x2064 they? y2064 z5627

14 And 2532 I said 2046 z5758 unto him, 846 Sir, 2962 thou 4771 knowest. 1492 z5758 And 2532 he said 2036 z5627 to me, 3427 These 3778 are x1526 they y1526 z5748 which came 2064 z5740 out of 1537 great 3173 tribulation, 2347 and 2532 have washed 4150 z5656 their y846 x848 robes, 4749 and 2532 made y3021 z0 them y4749 y846 white 3021 z5656 x848 in 1722 the x3588 blood 129 of the x3588 Lamb. 721

THESE ARE THEY WHICH CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION. And who were they in verse 13? They had on WHITE ROBES which Rev. 19 tells us is the Righteousness of the Saints, who were wed to the Lamb. They are seen in Rev. 4:4 which happens AFTER the Rev. 19 wedding.

The problem with people like you is you get hung up on single words and verses, the bible can only be understood as a Large Mosaic as written by the Holy Spirit. So, the 5 Seal (which is prophetic as are all 7 seals, they ARE NOT Judgments, PERIOD, meaning those dead have not died yet, but only die after the Wrath of Gd begins, because the AC is not allowed to go forth conquering until the DOTL arrives) shows us that those Martyrs CANNOT get vengeance until after the AC reign is over. They MUST WAIT until ALL THE BOTHERS have been KILLED just like they have. Is that not plain s day sir? Meaning NO MARTYR will be in heaven from that point on, and Rev. 20:4 PROVES they only get raised and judged AFTER the 2nd coming !! The difference is I can put it all together because it is my calling of 40 years, which could be 60 or 20, the number is just the number, the calling is all important. Most guys on here are clueless on prophesy tbh. If they only knew how empty their rhetoric is as seen by God, name calling, laughing, but the Lord gets the last laugh on mockers.

And by the way, Jesus calls it the GREATEST EVER TROUBLES, not just Great Tribulation. But you hsve to read the full context of the verse.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So it is not just GREAT TRIBULATION as you suggest, but it is the GREATEST EVER TROUBES known to mankind, and Rev. 7:13-14 describes no such thing, it is merely GREAT TRIBULATION, not t GREATEST EVER TRIBULATION. We agree thee is no THE anywhere, but that matters not anyway, where you get off-tracked is you do not take in the full context of what Jesus said in vs. 21. Great Troubles is NOT the GREATEST EVER TROUBLES. Once the Marriage starts NO ONE ELSE will be allowed in the doors will be closed, Jesus said that too, and thus once the Rapture happens, no one from the 70th week tribulation is getting in.

I'll help the preacher who in 40 years has probably never done an exercise he should have done before he started preaching and regarding himself as "called" to teach prophecy:

I know how to understand the bible overall, it must be fused together. EXAMPLE, of something you and most could never understand. I bet I will not get the PROPER ANSWER, then I will explain how the Holy Spirit can give us the REAL ANSWER if we seek the REAL ANSWER.

Dan. 7:11 says the Beasts BODY will be DESTROYED and he will be KILLED and cast into hell.

Rev. 19:20 says the Beast (and FP) will be cast ALIVE into hell.

So, which is it? Did God lie? Of course not...........SO WHICH IS IT? Or is it both and mankind just are not listening very well? If you can not resolve this quandary that tells me you do not understand how to get the holy spirt to reveal His deeper truths. And this is why you can not see that the Great Tribulation spoken about is the Church Age Saints arriving in Heaven from GREAT TRIBULATION. The funny thing is, the Troubles/Wrath of God only start with the Rev. 8 Trumpet Judgments, so if you understood that, you would understand that those seen in Rev. 7:9-16 can only be Church Age Saints. This is how one misunderstanding can lead to more bad understandings.

The fact that you and others get hung up on single word descriptors like THE is very telling. Its just like the Dan. 7:11 vs Rev. 19:20 point above, one has to look from 10,000 feet above.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

You are full of pride and ignorance.

You are petty sad little man, but you will answer to God. You are not trying to uplift the brotherhood, you seem to want to divide. You better check yourself brother.

 

[grafted branch]

2Ti_2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

If the second coming happened, then the resurrection happened and it didn't happen but teaching the second coming happened means you re teaching the resurrection happened and that harms people's faith. That is a serious thing.

You’re making an argument that defeats yourself. When a Premil is in Satan’s little season they will be Preterist at that time.

Those who are being deceived by Satan during Satan’s little season will surely be using 2 Timothy 2:18 to claim the second coming hasn’t happened and they will be as the sands of the sea in number. In other words the deceived vast majority will be saying the very thing you just said. I think an issue is that Premils can’t fathom ever becoming a Preterist yet by their own interpretation they will.

Here’s the paradox, for Premil to work, there has to be some way where Satan can’t deceive people about where they are on the Biblical timeline after the millennium while he obviously does deceive people about where they are on the Biblical timeline before the millennium.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Here’s the paradox, for Premil to work, there has to be some way where Satan can’t deceive people about where they are on the Biblical timeline after the millennium while he obviously does deceive people about where they are on the Biblical timeline before the millennium.

That's not true and is a fatal thought flaw. Satan like now will not be visible to the human eye, he and his Demon hordes will whisper into the ears of those who in their hearts really despise Jesus' rule.

Question, do you not understand why this has to happen at the very end? Because all these human born under Jesus' 1000 year reign will have never have had to choose Jesus by faith, so when tempted in Heaven by the anti-christ spirit, which is a real spirit like God just the opposite, they would or might again rebel, so God gives them that chance on earth before He turns the Universe into, Hell.........yes this Universe will be hell, its created in a time trap that no one will be able to get out of, for this very purpose. Thus Satan is let loose for a short season to tempt nations and peoples once again.

Anyone not pre mill (which tbh I had to look it up, I do not do tags) is really out there and deceived. TBH, it makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[grafted branch]

That's not true and is a fatal thought flaw. Satan like now will not be visible to the human eye, he and his Demon hordes will whisper into the ears of those who in their hearts really despise Jesus' rule.

Question, do you not understand why this has to happen at the very end? Because all these human born under Jesus' 1000 year reign will have never have had to choose Jesus by faith, so when tempted in Heaven by the anti-christ spirit, which is a real spirit like God just the opposite, they would or might again rebel, so God gives them that chance on earth before He turns the Universe into, Hell.........yes this Universe will be hell, its created in a time trap that no one will be able to get out of, for this very purpose. Thus Satan is let loose for a short season to tempt nations and peoples once again.

Anyone not pre mill (which tbh I had to look it up, I do not do tags) is really out there and deceived. TBH, it makes no sense whatsoever.

Well, during the Premil Satan’s little season, a person who claims the millennium is still future would be deceived, correct? And during Satan’s little season a deceived person can claim the millennium is still future and those born in that future millennium will have to choose Jesus by faith, just like you’re claiming right now.

During Satan’s little season a Premil has to have a valid Preterist argument, which means there currently has to be a valid Preterist argument or else you have to have Satan not being able to deceive during his little season in the same manner as he is currently deceiving people.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

.. and the other guy has 40 years experience teaching the Word of God. But you have learned nothing in 25 years. Nothing to brag about. At least the guy whose been a preacher for 40 years has learned something.

What has the guy who has been a preacher for 40 years learned? He is a pre-trib dispensationalist. What has he learned in relation to end times doctrine during that time? Nothing, in my opinion. You can't hardly be further from the truth in end times doctrine than pre-trib dispensationalism.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Well, during the Premil Satan’s little season, a person who claims the millennium is still future would be deceived, correct? And during Satan’s little season a deceived person can claim the millennium is still future and those born in that future millennium will have to choose Jesus by faith, just like you’re claiming right now.

The first Little Season happens during the 70th week, it is the 3.5 years in which Satan chases the Woman or Israel into the Wilderness. And Jesus only after the 70th week so the 1000 years reign only starts at the 2nd coming.

The 2nd Little Season happens a the end of the 1000 year reign.

During Satan’s little season a Premil has to have a valid Preterist argument, which means there currently has to be a valid Preterist argument or else you have to have Satan not being able to deceive during his little season in the same manner as he is currently deceiving people.

This is just someone rambling on about nothing. The Church is Raptured Pre Trib.

 

[Davidpt]

You’re making an argument that defeats yourself. When a Premil is in Satan’s little season they will be Preterist at that time.

Those who are being deceived by Satan during Satan’s little season will surely be using 2 Timothy 2:18 to claim the second coming hasn’t happened and they will be as the sands of the sea in number. In other words the deceived vast majority will be saying the very thing you just said. I think an issue is that Premils can’t fathom ever becoming a Preterist yet by their own interpretation they will.

Here’s the paradox, for Premil to work, there has to be some way where Satan can’t deceive people about where they are on the Biblical timeline after the millennium while he obviously does deceive people about where they are on the Biblical timeline before the millennium.

Here's an idea then since deception obviously started in the beginning with satan and Eve. Before Eve was deceived, let's liken that to the millennium, since both accounts would be involving no one being deceived by satan during it. Unless of course one is an Amil, since that view does indeed have the millennium involving someone being deceived by satan during it. Except Premil doesn't. And that your questions are in regards to Premil's proposed millennium, not Amil's proposed millennium.

And then when Eve is deceived let's liken that to satan's little season since both accounts are involving someone being deceived by satan after they are initially not being deceived by satan. Now use Eve to make your point. Use Eve to demonstrate this alleged paradox. The point being, in order to understand what happens in the end, pertaining to initially not being deceived(thus the millennium), then being deceived(thus satan's little season), we have to understand the beginning(thus Eve and satan). No one, not even you, or at least I don't think so, would insist it equals a paradox in Eve's case.

Once again, Amil aside since this comparison is not possible per Amil, the fact Genesis 2 and 3 does not have anyone being deceived before they are being deceived, and that Amil has ppl still being deceived before it is time to deceive them(meaning during satan's little season). Before the serpent deceived Eve, Eve was not already deceived by the serpent in the meantime. Once again, let's liken this to Premil's proposed millennium since Premil insists that no one on the entire planet is being deceived by anyone during the millennium, the same way Eve was not being deceived by anyone before satan deceived her.



Once again, in the beginning, Eve was not deceived, then she was deceived. Per Premil, no one is deceived during the millennium, yet after the millennium someone is deceived. If you see it as a paradox per Premil's proposed millennium followed by satan's little season, that should mean that you should be able to use Genesis 2 and 3 to demonstrate this alleged paradox. Except, surely you couldn't possibly think there was a paradox involving Genesis 2 and 3. No one could possibly think that.

In my view, as of the beginning of the millennium no one is any longer deceived since there is no one to deceive them anymore. If Christ and His resurrected saints are ruling and governing the entire planet, and that the beast and false prophet are now in the LOF, and satan is in the pit, obviously Christ and His resurrected saints wouldn't be trying to deceive anyone. Therefore, after the millennium, many rebel against Christ's one world government they had to endure during the millennium. satan deceives them into thinking they can actually overthrow Christ's one world government. Per my take, how does this equal a paradox? Especially in light of if we compare with Eve and satan in Genesis 2 and 3?

Here, below, is pretty much my breakdown how my version of Premillennialism logically flows. Just for the record though, I am not speaking for all Premils. The way I might reason some of these things might not be the way all Premils might reason these same things.



1. Millennium begins:

Christ returns.

satan is bound.

Beast and False Prophet are thrown into the lake of fire.

All deception ends.

Not everyone's fate is Revelation 19:21, pertaining to the lost. IOW, Zechariah 14:16-19 applies to some ppl alive on the earth when Christ returns, who are not part of Christ's armies, nor are part of the beast's armies.

Christ and His resurrected saints rule globally, justly, and visibly.

2. During the millennium:

No new births.(many Premils disagree). But let's not get into that debate.

No external or internal deception.

Earth experiences 1,000 years of peace under Christ’s unopposed reign.

3. After the millennium (satan's little season):

satan is released.

Those who had outwardly conformed to Christ’s rule (though not deceived during the millennium) are now presented with a new opportunity to rebel.

satan deceives these people into rebelling.

A final battle occurs; the rebels are destroyed; satan is thrown into the lake of fire.

So where is your alleged paradox?

Per my view, they, meaning those in Revelation 20:8, though they are no longer deceived during the millennium, yet possibly unwilling in their obedience--- they endured Christ’s reign but didn’t love it. Once Satan is loosed, he gives them the ideological and spiritual motivation to act on a rebellion they’ve long wanted but couldn’t pursue during the millennium because Christ and His saints have been ruling over them with a rod of iron. When satan is loosed this ruling them with a rod of iron is lifted in order to test them.

Their deception isn’t about timeline confusion (e.g. “Did Christ already come?”) but about pride, rebellion, and delusion, like satan initially thinking he could overthrow God in the beginning of his fall. Thus, there’s no contradiction or timeline confusion. The deception is about the feasibility of victory over Christ, not a mistaken belief that Christ hasn’t come yet.

You argue that people in satan’s little season will use 2 Timothy 2:18 to claim the second coming hasn’t happened. Yet, that’s not how the deception works, per my POV.

Your analogy doesn't fit, because no one during or after the millennium is confused about the second coming — they’ve lived through it.

The rebellion is not about denying Christ's past return; it's about rejecting His authority and foolishly thinking they can overthrow Him now that satan is back.

This post is rather lengthy as is. I guess I better stop here then. Not everyone cares to read lengthy posts. And you could be one that doesn't, for all I know.

 

[grafted branch]

Here's an idea then since deception obviously started in the beginning with satan and Eve. Before Eve was deceived, let's liken that to the millennium, since both accounts would be involving no one being deceived by satan during it. Unless of course one is an Amil, since that view does indeed have the millennium involving someone being deceived by satan during it. Except Premil doesn't. And that your questions are in regards to Premil's proposed millennium, not Amil's proposed millennium.

And then when Eve is deceived let's liken that to satan's little season since both accounts are involving someone being deceived by satan after they are initially not being deceived by satan. Now use Eve to make your point. Use Eve to demonstrate this alleged paradox. The point being, in order to understand what happens in the end, pertaining to initially not being deceived(thus the millennium), then being deceived(thus satan's little season), we have to understand the beginning(thus Eve and satan). No one, not even you, or at least I don't think so, would insist it equals a paradox in Eve's case.

Once again, Amil aside since this comparison is not possible per Amil, the fact Genesis 2 and 3 does not have anyone being deceived before they are being deceived, and that Amil has ppl still being deceived before it is time to deceive them(meaning during satan's little season). Before the serpent deceived Eve, Eve was not already deceived by the serpent in the meantime. Once again, let's liken this to Premil's proposed millennium since Premil insists that no one on the entire planet is being deceived by anyone during the millennium, the same way Eve was not being deceived by anyone before satan deceived her.



Once again, in the beginning, Eve was not deceived, then she was deceived. Per Premil, no one is deceived during the millennium, yet after the millennium someone is deceived. If you see it as a paradox per Premil's proposed millennium followed by satan's little season, that should mean that you should be able to use Genesis 2 and 3 to demonstrate this alleged paradox. Except, surely you couldn't possibly think there was a paradox involving Genesis 2 and 3. No one could possibly think that.

In my view, as of the beginning of the millennium no one is any longer deceived since there is no one to deceive them anymore. If Christ and His resurrected saints are ruling and governing the entire planet, and that the beast and false prophet are now in the LOF, and satan is in the pit, obviously Christ and His resurrected saints wouldn't be trying to deceive anyone. Therefore, after the millennium, many rebel against Christ's one world government they had to endure during the millennium. satan deceives them into thinking they can actually overthrow Christ's one world government. Per my take, how does this equal a paradox? Especially in light of if we compare with Eve and satan in Genesis 2 and 3?

Here, below, is pretty much my breakdown how my version of Premillennialism logically flows. Just for the record though, I am not speaking for all Premils. The way I might reason some of these things might not be the way all Premils might reason these same things.



1. Millennium begins:

Christ returns.

satan is bound.

Beast and False Prophet are thrown into the lake of fire.

All deception ends.

Not everyone's fate is Revelation 19:21, pertaining to the lost. IOW, Zechariah 14:16-19 applies to some ppl alive on the earth when Christ returns, who are not part of Christ's armies, nor are part of the beast's armies.

Christ and His resurrected saints rule globally, justly, and visibly.

2. During the millennium:

No new births.(many Premils disagree). But let's not get into that debate.

No external or internal deception.

Earth experiences 1,000 years of peace under Christ’s unopposed reign.

3. After the millennium (satan's little season):

satan is released.

Those who had outwardly conformed to Christ’s rule (though not deceived during the millennium) are now presented with a new opportunity to rebel.

satan deceives these people into rebelling.

A final battle occurs; the rebels are destroyed; satan is thrown into the lake of fire.

So where is your alleged paradox?

Per my view, they, meaning those in Revelation 20:8, though they are no longer deceived during the millennium, yet possibly unwilling in their obedience--- they endured Christ’s reign but didn’t love it. Once Satan is loosed, he gives them the ideological and spiritual motivation to act on a rebellion they’ve long wanted but couldn’t pursue during the millennium because Christ and His saints have been ruling over them with a rod of iron. When satan is loosed this ruling them with a rod of iron is lifted in order to test them.

Their deception isn’t about timeline confusion (e.g. “Did Christ already come?”) but about pride, rebellion, and delusion, like satan initially thinking he could overthrow God in the beginning of his fall. Thus, there’s no contradiction or timeline confusion. The deception is about the feasibility of victory over Christ, not a mistaken belief that Christ hasn’t come yet.

You argue that people in satan’s little season will use 2 Timothy 2:18 to claim the second coming hasn’t happened. Yet, that’s not how the deception works, per my POV.

Your analogy doesn't fit, because no one during or after the millennium is confused about the second coming — they’ve lived through it.

The rebellion is not about denying Christ's past return; it's about rejecting His authority and foolishly thinking they can overthrow Him now that satan is back.

This post is rather lengthy as is. I guess I better stop here then. Not everyone cares to read lengthy posts. And you could be one that doesn't, for all I know.

I did read the whole post.



Let’s look at Eve, prior to her deception. If we equate that condition to the millennium then there would have to be no knowledge of good and evil during the millennium. That simply can’t be since Jesus said “my words will never pass away” and His word contains instructions on what evil is and isn’t.

When Satan’s little season starts you are assuming it’s about rejecting His authority and thinking they can over throw Him by joining up with Satan. That isn’t how the majority of people are currently being deceived. Satan comes as an angel of light and deceives in that manner.

Do you think Satan will come as an angel of light during his little season? If not then you are solving what I see as a paradox by claiming Satan does not deceive in the same manner during his little season as he does today.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Per my view, they, meaning those in Revelation 20:8, though they are no longer deceived during the millennium, yet possibly unwilling in their obedience--- they endured Christ’s reign but didn’t love it. Once Satan is loosed, he gives them the ideological and spiritual motivation to act on a rebellion they’ve long wanted but couldn’t pursue during the millennium because Christ and His saints have been ruling over them with a rod of iron. When satan is loosed this ruling them with a rod of iron is lifted in order to test them.

You seem to be saying that the ones described in Revelation 20:8, who number "as the sand of the sea", may already want to rebel during the millennium, but will not be able to act on it until the thousand years is over because of being ruled with a rod of iron. Does that mean you think there will be no sin and rebellion during the millennium? You see Zechariah 14:16-21 as referring to that time period, so why would people be warned about being punished during that time if it's not possible for them to rebel during that time?

Zechariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

If this passage relates to the thousand years, then that means it would be possible even during the thousand years for people to rebel or else it wouldn't make sense to talk about what would happen to those who rebel by not obeying the command to go to Jerusalem to worship the Lord and keep the feast of tabernacles. Yet, you are apparently saying that no one can rebel during the thousand years and can only do so after the thousand years are over, which would not agree with what is written in Zechariah 14:17-19 if that passage is talking about things related to the thousand years time period.

 

[WPM]

You are petty sad little man, but you will answer to God. You are not trying to uplift the brotherhood, you seem to want to divide. You better check yourself brother.

Yea right! Lol. You boast about who you are, how you are more experienced, how your credentials are far superior to the rest of us earthlings, and then you hurl ad hominem when that is challenged. No!

 

[WPM]

Here's an idea then since deception obviously started in the beginning with satan and Eve. Before Eve was deceived, let's liken that to the millennium, since both accounts would be involving no one being deceived by satan during it. Unless of course one is an Amil, since that view does indeed have the millennium involving someone being deceived by satan during it. Except Premil doesn't. And that your questions are in regards to Premil's proposed millennium, not Amil's proposed millennium.

And then when Eve is deceived let's liken that to satan's little season since both accounts are involving someone being deceived by satan after they are initially not being deceived by satan. Now use Eve to make your point. Use Eve to demonstrate this alleged paradox. The point being, in order to understand what happens in the end, pertaining to initially not being deceived(thus the millennium), then being deceived(thus satan's little season), we have to understand the beginning(thus Eve and satan). No one, not even you, or at least I don't think so, would insist it equals a paradox in Eve's case.

Once again, Amil aside since this comparison is not possible per Amil, the fact Genesis 2 and 3 does not have anyone being deceived before they are being deceived, and that Amil has ppl still being deceived before it is time to deceive them(meaning during satan's little season). Before the serpent deceived Eve, Eve was not already deceived by the serpent in the meantime. Once again, let's liken this to Premil's proposed millennium since Premil insists that no one on the entire planet is being deceived by anyone during the millennium, the same way Eve was not being deceived by anyone before satan deceived her.



Once again, in the beginning, Eve was not deceived, then she was deceived. Per Premil, no one is deceived during the millennium, yet after the millennium someone is deceived. If you see it as a paradox per Premil's proposed millennium followed by satan's little season, that should mean that you should be able to use Genesis 2 and 3 to demonstrate this alleged paradox. Except, surely you couldn't possibly think there was a paradox involving Genesis 2 and 3. No one could possibly think that.

In my view, as of the beginning of the millennium no one is any longer deceived since there is no one to deceive them anymore. If Christ and His resurrected saints are ruling and governing the entire planet, and that the beast and false prophet are now in the LOF, and satan is in the pit, obviously Christ and His resurrected saints wouldn't be trying to deceive anyone. Therefore, after the millennium, many rebel against Christ's one world government they had to endure during the millennium. satan deceives them into thinking they can actually overthrow Christ's one world government. Per my take, how does this equal a paradox? Especially in light of if we compare with Eve and satan in Genesis 2 and 3?

Here, below, is pretty much my breakdown how my version of Premillennialism logically flows. Just for the record though, I am not speaking for all Premils. The way I might reason some of these things might not be the way all Premils might reason these same things.



1. Millennium begins:

Christ returns.

satan is bound.

Beast and False Prophet are thrown into the lake of fire.

All deception ends.

Not everyone's fate is Revelation 19:21, pertaining to the lost. IOW, Zechariah 14:16-19 applies to some ppl alive on the earth when Christ returns, who are not part of Christ's armies, nor are part of the beast's armies.

Christ and His resurrected saints rule globally, justly, and visibly.

2. During the millennium:

No new births.(many Premils disagree). But let's not get into that debate.

No external or internal deception.

Earth experiences 1,000 years of peace under Christ’s unopposed reign.

3. After the millennium (satan's little season):

satan is released.

Those who had outwardly conformed to Christ’s rule (though not deceived during the millennium) are now presented with a new opportunity to rebel.

satan deceives these people into rebelling.

A final battle occurs; the rebels are destroyed; satan is thrown into the lake of fire.

So where is your alleged paradox?

Per my view, they, meaning those in Revelation 20:8, though they are no longer deceived during the millennium, yet possibly unwilling in their obedience--- they endured Christ’s reign but didn’t love it. Once Satan is loosed, he gives them the ideological and spiritual motivation to act on a rebellion they’ve long wanted but couldn’t pursue during the millennium because Christ and His saints have been ruling over them with a rod of iron. When satan is loosed this ruling them with a rod of iron is lifted in order to test them.

Their deception isn’t about timeline confusion (e.g. “Did Christ already come?”) but about pride, rebellion, and delusion, like satan initially thinking he could overthrow God in the beginning of his fall. Thus, there’s no contradiction or timeline confusion. The deception is about the feasibility of victory over Christ, not a mistaken belief that Christ hasn’t come yet.

You argue that people in satan’s little season will use 2 Timothy 2:18 to claim the second coming hasn’t happened. Yet, that’s not how the deception works, per my POV.

Your analogy doesn't fit, because no one during or after the millennium is confused about the second coming — they’ve lived through it.

The rebellion is not about denying Christ's past return; it's about rejecting His authority and foolishly thinking they can overthrow Him now that satan is back.

This post is rather lengthy as is. I guess I better stop here then. Not everyone cares to read lengthy posts. And you could be one that doesn't, for all I know.

Lol. You are in no position to lecture any of us. Your Millennium is full of billions of religious phonies feigning their adherence to Christ, and going through all the religious motions of going to Jerusalem every year to worship Him, when in fact they are rebels against God at heart. Talk about deception!

 

[WPM]

What has the guy who has been a preacher for 40 years learned? He is a pre-trib dispensationalist. What has he learned in relation to end times doctrine during that time? Nothing, in my opinion. You can't hardly be further from the truth in end times doctrine than pre-trib dispensationalism.

He simply preaches what he has been taught. He cannot think outside the box.