Inconsistency of teaching faith without works

[marks]

Since we both believe the other is disingenuous, then let's try to keep it simple with one point at a time.

You have taught that the justification by works in James 2 is with men alone. I have responded that the justification by works in James 2 is with God, where Abraham and Rahab examples.

How do you respond in turn.

No, we're going in circles because you do not acknowledge my argument, and do not respond to it. You've claimed to make an argument but all I can find in your posts are restatements of your assertions, but not an actual argument.

My claim is that James is speaking in context of demonstrating the reality of our faith to others through the good works we do. I base this upon,

James 2:18 KJV
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

This demonstrates James' intent in what he is writing, that our works give demonstration of our faith to others, such as Abraham. He believed God, and God counted that faith for righteousness. God didn't need to see his works to know he actually believed. Others did, because man cannot see into another's heart.

This harmonizes with the rest of the Bible, in particular, places like Romans 4 and Ephesians 2 that teach us salvation is specifically not from our works, and to the contrary, cannot be from works.

You have not shown how this is not the correct context, and you have not shown passages such as Romans 4 to not be teaching a faith specifically apart from works.

In direct refutation to your assertion is Galations 3,

Galatians 3:10-14 KJV
10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14) That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

In the sight of men, we are justified by our works, that is, our works show that we have faith. However, our works do not justify us in the sight of God. That is from faith.

These are very plain - simple - teachings in the Bible.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar.

Justified before others, but not before God. The correct understanding will not contradict other passages.

Galatians 3:10-14 KJV
10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14) That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Much love!

 

[Ghada]

Paul (romans 4) says we are not justified by works

Paul says we are not saved by works.

I've already offered the reconciliation of the the two apostles to you enough times.

I do so by showing Paul is speaking of our past works of our own righteousness,a nd James is speaking of our works through the faith of Jesus.

You do so by rejecting James 2, and further change Romans 4 into speaking of any and all works.

James is the only one who says with works.. But you refuse to look at to why James said it.

He says, be works. And the argument of the thread is shows we are justified by means of works, even as we are saved by means of grace.

Your argument of limiting justification by works to men alone in James, has already be answered and show the examples of Abraham and Rahab are justified with God by works, and not by men alone.

Two challenges you are silent on.

Actually James said that,, I will show you my faith by my works, You show me your faith!!!

True. It's common understanding among serious people, that works justify our faith among men, and not faith without works.

James also says that, Abraham was justified by works, so that God called Abraham His Friend. Not called the friend of men.

Even as men won't give any honor nor favor to men with faith only, but only faith with works. So does God, who is more just and righteous in judgment than man.

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Having favor with man by works is good, but having favor with God by works is far better.

 

[Ghada]

No, we're going in circles because you do not acknowledge my argument, and do not respond to it. You've claimed to make an argument but all I can find in your posts are restatements of your assertions, but not an actual argument.

My claim is that James is speaking in context of demonstrating the reality of our faith to others through the good works we do. I base this upon,

James 2:18 KJV
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

This demonstrates James' intent in what he is writing, that our works give demonstration of our faith to others, such as Abraham. He believed God, and God counted that faith for righteousness. God didn't need to see his works to know he actually believed. Others did, because man cannot see into another's heart.

This harmonizes with the rest of the Bible, in particular, places like Romans 4 and Ephesians 2 that teach us salvation is specifically not from our works, and to the contrary, cannot be from works.

You have not shown how this is not the correct context, and you have not shown passages such as Romans 4 to not be teaching a faith specifically apart from works.

In direct refutation to your assertion is Galations 3,

Galatians 3:10-14 KJV
10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14) That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

In the sight of men, we are justified by our works, that is, our works show that we have faith. However, our works do not justify us in the sight of God. That is from faith.

These are very plain - simple - teachings in the Bible.

Much love!

I've answered to response to me, and responded likewise in turn. See 99. Your turn now.

 

[Ghada]

Wrong

This makes the third challenge you reject without showing why.

A man is made righteous by faith in God. He is perfected forever. He is then a work in progress as he is sanctified in his daily walk.

And here is another inconsistency compounded by unbelief.

On the one hand they claim to be perfected forever, just not today.

The forever perfection by faith alone within, without being blameless in works without, is a claim of the mind only.

he will never be totally righteous in his deeds until he is glorified.

Another inconsistency: We are perfected forever today, but not totally righteous until the resurrection of the dead.

It's the faith without works gospel of being perfected forever, but not totally righteous.

It's the gospel of becoming holy and without blame newborn babes in Christ only after the resurrection of the dead. In the meantime it's the gospel of an unholy conversion of continued filthy rags living today, though perfected forever.

It's the gospel of walking after the flesh unto the end of this life, and only walking after the Spirit in the next.

It's preaching inward perfection, with outward filthiness.

The Bible teaches if we are not walking as Jesus walked in this life, we will not be worthy to walk as He walks forever.

 

[marks]

And this is only part of James 2. Let's go on to the rest.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar.

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

This speaks specifically now of man being justified by works. And it is where God is the One justifying Abraham by works, so that God calls him the Friend of God. God does not call him a friend of men by his justified works.

You are merely restating your assertion here, that the passage speaks of Abraham being justified before God instead of before men, but you do not make any demonstration from the passage of how this is not in the context that James wrote, as Abraham "showed you his faith by his works".

As I've posted many times, Romans 4 and Galations 3 teach plainly that we are not justified before God by our works. Again, this is plainly stated.

This statement:

"And it is where God is the One justifying Abraham by works"

has no support in James 2, and is specifically denied by James as noted above. This is a single message about how our works demonstrate our faith to others. Meanwhile, other passages state catagorically that our works do not justify us to God. That is by faith, alone. True faith does not remain alone, works will follow, but works do not replace true faith as that by which God justified us.

Until you address these particular points, we will remain going in circles.

Much love!

 

[marks]

No problem. This is an exchange that can be fruitful.

Only if you will address these points. And you will see that this is plainly taught truth, that we are justified by God for our faith, and justified before man by our works. This is the teaching of God through Paul and through James.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This makes the third challenge you reject without showing why.


And here is another inconsistency compounded by unbelief.

On the one hand they claim to be perfected forever, just not today.

The forever perfection by faith alone within, without being blameless in works without, is a claim of the mind only.




Another inconsistency: We are perfected forever today, but not totally righteous until the resurrection of the dead.

It's the faith without works gospel of being perfected forever, but not totally righteous.

It's the gospel of becoming holy and without blame newborn babes in Christ only after the resurrection of the dead. In the meantime it's the gospel of an unholy conversion of continued filthy rags living today, though perfected forever.

It's the gospel of walking after the flesh unto the end of this life, and only walking after the Spirit in the next.

It's preaching inward perfection, with outward filthiness.

The Bible teaches if we are not walking as Jesus walked in this life, we will not be worthy to walk as He walks forever.

Good luck in trying to save yourself man

You have been shown your error many times.

Time to turn you over to God..

 

[Ghada]

He is then a work in progress as he is sanctified in his daily walk.

The separation of faith from works doctrine never ends. It must continually be separating every other principle of the Bible from itself.

In this case, someone is trying to separate being made righteous from being righteous.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

The Bible teaches only those doing righteous are being righteous with God.

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

It also shows that the gospel of being made righteous without doing righteousness, is not the gospel of Jesus Christ and being born of God.

In the Bible, only those being righteous with God by doing His righteousness are born of Him.

In the end, the gospel of justification by faith alone without works, separates every aspect of their birth, conversion, salvation, faith, justification, righteousness, etc... from how they live.

It is the definition of hypocrisy. It's not that they are necessarily purposing to be hypocrites, since they do live by their daily faith, but their doctrine is openly hypocritical.

The problem also is that living by their daily faith is a lifetime of continued filthy rags. In their sinful living they are not at all hypocritical, because they teach a daily faith that is sinful by nature.

 

[Ghada]

However, our works do not justify us in the sight of God. That is from faith.

These are very plain - simple - teachings in the Bible.

Much love!

Yes, it is, and in another post 99, I acknowledge it as valid. Now you can respond to the rest of James 2, where our works also justify us with God, as exampled by Abraham and Rahab.

This is where God calls us Friends of His, not just of men.

 

[Ghada]

Justified before others, but not before God. The correct understanding will not contradict other passages.

Your teaching of the first part of James 2, I agree with.

But your reading of the last part ignores it is God being spoken of in context of justification by works.

God called Him Friend of God. Not just of men.

James 2 is speaking of God and Abraham and Rahab, not of men talking with men.

 

[Behold]

Teaching faith without works, as the only Bible means of salvation and justification,

When a person teaches that Faith is not what God accepts to save you and keep you saved, then this teaching is denying that The Cross of Christ is all that God provided and accepts to accept a person who BELIEVES.

The teaching that "works" is a part of Salvation, is to teach that Jesus's Cross is not enough and a persons behavior. (their works) is a 2nd part of God's Redemption.

Paul said this Cross Denying gospel of works is 'cursed" and the person as well who teaches it.

Galatians 1:8

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The separation of faith from works doctrine never ends. It must continually be separating every other principle of the Bible from itself.

In this case, someone is trying to separate being made righteous from being righteous.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

The Bible teaches only those doing righteous are being righteous with God.

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

It also shows that the gospel of being made righteous without doing righteousness, is not the gospel of Jesus Christ and being born of God.

In the Bible, only those being righteous with God by doing His righteousness are born of Him.

In the end, the gospel of justification by faith alone without works, separates every aspect of their birth, conversion, salvation, faith, justification, righteousness, etc... from how they live.

It is the definition of hypocrisy. It's not that they are necessarily purposing to be hypocrites, since they do live by their daily faith, but their doctrine is openly hypocritical.

The problem also is that living by their daily faith is a lifetime of continued filthy rags. In their sinful living they are not at all hypocritical, because they teach a daily faith that is sinful by nature.

The works self righteous gospel never ends

The jews tried it and failed

The catholics tried it and failed

Now you are tryign it. You will still fail

 

[marks]

Your teaching of the first part of James 2, I agree with.

But your reading of the last part ignores it is God being spoken of in context of justification by works.

God called Him Friend of God. Not just of men.

James 2 is speaking of God and Abraham and Rahab, not of men talking with men.

No, you are not regarding the context, but I understand why, it refutes your view. As well as the other passages which I've posts that you've not responded to.

It seems to me you are yet another would-be teacher of the Law who does not know what the Law says, and fails to realize, it only condemns you.

You would do well to sit under sound teaching for a season.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes, it is, and in another post 99, I acknowledge it as valid. Now you can respond to the rest of James 2, where our works also justify us with God, as exampled by Abraham and Rahab.

This is where God calls us Friends of His, not just of men.

You can't rightfully just choose to ignore the context and think you've got the right understanding, and in particular when your view is clearly contradicted in many passages.

Round and round we go because you do not want to engage the passages I'm posting, so enough is enough

Much love!

 

[Ghada]

There is another inconsistency made by some preaching the faith alone without works gospel.

Some say that believing the gospel alone is doing the truth. Believing only is obeying.

And so, if faith is work, then there can be no such thing as faith without work. By trying to suggest that our faith alone is indeed doing the word and obeying the gospel, then faith with works saves the soul.

It is now being taught that we are only saved and justified by doing the truth and obeying the gospel, which is the faith of God.

And that is true in the Bible.

 

[Ghada]

You are merely restating your assertion here, that the passage speaks of Abraham being justified before God

Because God is the one mentioned with Abraham and Rahab's justification.

You say it is of men, because men speak with one another, but do not acknowledge it is of men, when it is God calling him Friend by works.

Conclusion: you are not guided by all words of James 2, but only the ones you want.

instead of before men,

You say instead of, I say in addition to.

but you do not make any demonstration from the passage of how this is not in the context that James wrote, as Abraham "showed you his faith by his works".

It's in the context of James 2 in the latter part, which you reject. The context of earlier James 2 is indeed with men.

James 2 teaches: Even as it is justified for men to demand works to justify our faith with one another, so does God.

God only calls them friends, whose works are justified by God as good. He calls them enemies, whose works are condemned by God as sinful of the world. (James 4)

Until you include all the words of James 2, in order to teach justification of man in James 2, there is no more use for me to continue with you in this argument.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There is another inconsistency made by some preaching the faith alone without works gospel.

Some say that believing the gospel alone is doing the truth. Believing only is obeying.

And so, if faith is work, then there can be no such thing as faith without work. By trying to suggest that our faith alone is indeed doing the word and obeying the gospel, then faith with works saves the soul.

It is now being taught that we are only saved and justified by doing the truth and obeying the gospel, which is the faith of God.

And that is true in the Bible.

But as many as have recieved him, to them he gave the right to become children of God

this is what saves a person entirely forever

The works are a byproduct of being saved, Not done in order to be saved.

 

[mailmandan]

But as many as have recieved him, to them he gave the right to become children of God

this is what saves a person entirely forever

The works are a byproduct of being saved, Not done in order to be saved.

Amen! Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith but works are not the very essence of faith and works are also not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Amen! Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith but works are not the very essence of faith and works are also not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation.

Sadly, Some can't get out of their own way