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indirect blaspheme more suttle.

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by brodav9, Dec 8, 2012.

  1. brodav9

    brodav9 New Member

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    The Mormons believe in a certain doctrinal belief that appears to be blaspheme the Holy Spirit, but indirectly.

    They believe the Father God came down and had intercoarse with Mary to bring forth Jesus. Sorry to say this just had to reveal it. When sitting in a chair thinking about it the understanding came. Jesus was formed in Mary womb by the Holy Spirit.

    That would be called the work of the Holy Spirit. If one were to call God the Father a fornicater would be wicked enough, but to attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to fornication would be blaspheme of the Holy Spirit, what do you think?? We have to remember the Father didn't do this. He is the united God head but the work is written in scriptur strictly as the work of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said he can forgive blaspheme of him but not the Holy Spirit. Mk. 3:29-30 fornication is a unclean spirit.
     
  2. Markseasigh

    Markseasigh New Member

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    Could you explain to me why the bloodline of David reaches Jesus through JOSEPH, and not MARY?

    Matthew 1:15-16
     
  3. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    I don't think he replies to questions

    Answer
    They both did. At the end of the Book of Numbers an interesting loophole emerged. A man died without a son, leaving 4 daughters. They came to Moses complaining that they would lose the family land since there was no son to inherit it. Moses sought the Lord Who decreed that if there was no son in a family daughters could inherit family land providing they married within their own tribal clan. In effect they had to marry a cousin to keep the land in the "family." This made sense since land was allotted first by tribe then by clan then by family. Marrying within the clan kept the families in close proximity and preserved the tribal allotment. (Num. 36 1:13)

    Now compare the 2 genealogies of Jesus in Matthew 1:1-17 and Luke 3:23-38, and you'll discover that Mary and Joseph were both of the tribe of Judah and descendants of David. Joseph descended through Solomon, the royal but cursed line, while Mary's line was through Solomon's brother Nathan.
    Here's the tricky part. Mary had no brothers, and so was entitled to inherit her family's land as long as she married someone also descended from David. Joseph fit the bill and being in the royal line had a claim to the throne, but carried the blood curse. No biological son of his could ever legally qualify as Israel's king, but Joseph could secure Mary's right of inheritance.

    When Mary accepted Joseph's offer of marriage she preserved her family's land and also made good her son's claim to the throne of Israel. Jesus was in the royal succession through Joseph but escaped the curse since he wasn't Joseph's biological son. But He was a biological descendant of David's through his mother and therefore of the "house and lineage of David."

    This whole issue revolves around the facts that a) God has bound Himself to His own laws and B) He keeps His word; facts that should give you great comfort. God is not a man that He should lie, nor a son of man that He should change His mind (Num. 23:19). Legally, a virgin birth was required to produce a sinless man who would be qualified and able to serve as our Kinsman Redeemer, and God longed to redeem us. A virgin birth was also required to sidestep the blood curse on the royal line, fulfilling God's promise to David that a biological descendant of his would sit on the throne of Israel forever.


    I'm glad I found this instead of having to do it myself, but to my recollection that sums it up.


    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Whose_blood_line_connect_Jesus_to_King_David_-_Joseph_or_Mary


    so you see Adam the god of this world as some believe didn't lay with Mary, nether did the Father.
    So salvation was not dependent on one mans peter, [​IMG] LOL I think I just killed two birds with one stone
    The Mormons and the RCC.

    .
     
  4. MTPockets

    MTPockets New Member

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    Hi! 'brodav9'
    It's certainly not the case that I have any alignment with Mormom teachings/doctrines ... had to say that, jus' to put it away before continuing. :)
    The question which seems to be addressed is: "How did Mary become impregnated?"
    Well, those who subscribe to the "three-PERSONS-in-one-God", (aka: 'trinity doctrine'), appear to be compelled to also reply that it was the PERSON of the Holy Spirit who impregnated Mary. In essence, having to claim that one ot the three supposed 'persons' of God impregnated Mary. Yet, the Bible doesn't say that Jesus is a 'son of the Holy Spirit'.

    Stil more confusing for some, there is the Interesting reply of Mary saying, "Be it unto me according to your word".
    We are reminded that John1:14 reads, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".
    It;'s here where the dance around the meaning of the term 'Logos' occurs.
    Some too seem to claim that the 'Word' is the executor of God's thoughts and consequently equate it with the workings of the Holy Spirit.

    All that being said, the Mormons evidently have failed to discover the truth behind the expression 'Word of God'. It's crucial that we fully comprehend how it was that Mary became impregnated/pregnant because the biblical event holds within it the narrative of our entire Christian destiny.
     
  5. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    Luke1
    34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
    35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.


    Thinking about what you said MTPockets I suppose the other extreme might be those that wish to exclude the HS from the word.

    Who said, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:
    That would be Gabriel, who Luke 1:19 I am Gabriel, who stands in the presents of God.

    Luke1
    34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
    35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    So who are you or I to question Gabriel's notation of the Holy Spirit and God "the highest"
    An Angel, who stands in the presents of God. I think I'll be listening to Gabriel.
     
  6. MTPockets

    MTPockets New Member

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    Hi! 'Rex'
    I'm a little late replying to this because I was busy revamping the TLJ Site so that it would be fully mobile/portable device compliant.
    Anyways, let's get something said right at the outset: I'm in agreement with your synoposis. It is indeed true that the impregnation of Mary was a work of the Holy Spirit.
    What I was trying to bring across was that those who subscribe to the idea of three PERSONS in one God merely end up in the quandry of making a distinction between it being either the PERSON of God or the PERSON of the Holy Spirit who "came down and had intercourse with Mary to bring forth JesusGod", [to use the aforementioned words of Member 'brodav9]. So, it becomes just as easy to be tempted to say that Jesus a 'Son of the Holy Spirit' rather than a Son of God.

    The solution to the matter is found, (as I previously mentioned), with the term "Word of God".
    Even the term 'Word of God' is often said to be the PERSON of Jesus Himself; some even claiming that the 'Word of God' means that Jesus had a pre-existence prior His natural birth. When John began his gospel saying, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", many mistakenly think this refers to the person of Jesus Christ. They wrongly equate "The Word having become flesh" with the man Jesus Christ.

    Paul testified, "There is one God, the Father, from Whom all things came and for Whom we live. And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all things came and through Whom we live", (1Corinthians 8:6).
    Note: the apostle does not say that Jesus brings all things into existence, but only that all things exist in Him. It is God alone who is the Creator and the Maker of all things that are the source of all life. It is God alone who brings all things into existence on the basis of His plan with men.
    During His life on earth, God made Jesus both Lord and Christ, (Acts 2:36). Jesus becomes the Christ, the man of Whom God's Word pondered from the very beginning. Jesus becomes the Head of all men and, because of this, everthing now exists through Jesus Christ, the Lord and we can only truly live through Him.

    Nevertheless, we might as well begin there ... defining the term 'Word of God'.
    :"In the begining was the Word", (John 1:1).
    Mary clearly stated, "Let it be unto me according to thy Word", This is characteristic of God. He's always clear in advance and then asks the cooperation of man to achieve His purpose.
    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", (John 1:1).

    God speaks and acts from this Word', from His 'Logos'.
    From the beginning, everything visible and invisible is contained in the Word. It is this Word which contains everything that was and is with God; including everyhing that still remains in/with God as an unspoken thought ... everything that is yet to be known as God's uttered words which become launched as deeds.
    God continues to work in this manner in this very day. He speaks at each fullness of time, in the 'morning' of each new 'day'. God utters spoken words through His Spirit and His Word brings it about.
    God does the things publicly and with a transparent clarity and openness, which characterize Him. Amos prophesied: "Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing His plan to His servants the prophets", (Amos 3:7.
    The angels continue to follow these developments closely with great joy. They have an intensive and eager longing to contribute to it in every way that God might instruct.
    He calls everything into existence from His logos. God speaks and His Spirit begins to execute a work. And it happens: it is there! (Psalm 33:9).
    God has been doing this from the beginning through to present day. God continues to speak from this Word and He continues to act until His eternal plans and intents are accomplished; until such time that His ultimate intention reaches its entire fulfillment.
    All God's words and deeds are focused on the fulfillment of His eternal plan and on the realization of His “Word that is from the beginning”.
    God first utters something of the total thought which is in Him. Subsequent to this speaking, God's Spirit is begins to accomplish. God's strength opens up and He calls something into existence which didn’t exist previously.
    God realizes His intentions in phases. He works in 'days', in periods. Processes are set in motion with every utterance. Every phase forms a part of the great whole and each successive step seamlessly fits with what already is. In great faith and unshakable trust, God works in perfect harmony, rest and with absolute certainty. He moves with infinite strength and inexhaustible energy; full of boundless love, patience and with all knowledge and wisdom. This all is in God and originates with Him, Isaiah 46:9-10).

    Now about the conception:
    The particularity of Jesus' coming into this world is not located in the birthplace or the preceding pregnancy. While every birth is a miracle in itself, the uniqueness of Jesus lies in the supernatual conception. Jesus is, according to the Scriptures, born of a woman, but not at the hands of a man of flesh and blood.
    In Luke 1:33-34, we read that, after Mary's question, "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?",Gabriel responded, "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God",
    By this creative act of God, Mary became pregnant. When God, through His Holy Spirit, came over her, one of Mary's eggs became fertilized. This created new life and formed a human embryo.
    Therefore, Jesus was not only the Son of God, but also a real and physical son of Mary. Mary was not merely His surrogate mother, but His real birth mother!
    The full salvation of the whole world became dependent on this new creative act of God.
    God created for this unique purpose a new and perfect sperm. Not divine; but a hman male sperm. After all, this is the only species which a female human egg can absorb.
    Sperm and ova are only in the natural world. They are, as such, inate in the formation of man and wife in order to multiply the human race, (Gen.1: 27,28).So, we have to be careful when using the word 'divine' sperm. 'Divine' sperm do not exist. In heaven there is neither male nor female; neither marrying and giving in marriage ... nor reproduction, (Matthew 22:30).

    So it was that Mary was impregnated by the Word of God through the working of the Spirit of God.
    And, so it was too that the man Jesus was formed in/by the thoughts (Word) "from the foundation of the world", (John 17:24).

    God sanctified His Son in a perfect manner. He remained active with Jesus constantly. The prophetic words from Isaiah 27:3 regarding Jesus became a glorious reality, "I the Lord, his guardian, he will constantly watering, that is nothing to ruin them, I will keep it night and day". Therefore, the spiritual heart of Jesus - the core of all His potential - remained inaccessible to the enemy. "The Lord God hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to [him that is] weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned", (Isaiah 50:4). Luke 2:40 records the result: "The child grew and became strong, and it was filled with wisdom and the grace of God was upon him".
    The overall response of Jesus to the invitation of God matured within his heart. The words from Psalm 40:8,9 come to mind: "Then said I: Behold, I come; in the scroll is written about me, I delight to do thy will, O my God, thy law is within my heart".

    God revealed to Moses how the creation of heaven and earth were established because he spoke with God and had seen the figure of the Lord, (Num.12:7.8). God reveals Himself to Jesus, (His only Son!), so incredibly much more! Much more than Moses,
    Jesus learned everything to lunderstand the realities of the kingdom of heaven, (the spiritual world). His spiritual knowledge developed in great clarity. His mind was not obscured, but fully illuminated. It developed in all holiness and purity to fullness. His eyes were not veiled. He looked bright and sharp into both the visible and invisible worlds simultaneously. His ears were not deaf, He could hear what the Spirit spoke to Him,
     
  7. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    So then whats the problem you expressed in your first post.


    I was just accused of "disbelief in the Trinity" by a catholic. Though they never provided a link or referenced any of my post, nor ever entertained a discussion with me about it, that leaves the statement rather hollow.

    It would seem you don't subscribe to "for lack of a better term" traditional beliefs in the trinity what ever that my mean in itself.

    My main concern is all the statements that say no one has seen God the Father in the NT. I don't have a problem with Elohim the plural God in Gen. ether; 26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;

    Creation was the work of both Father and Son as we know them from the bible. What are your thoughts. We have already discussed in short the HS and God of all, the distinction in Luke by Gabriel. I really don't see the big deal about invisible God manifest in a visible form with body like a man, and working threw His Spirit. But people get all bent out of shape when you say no one has seen God, yet I can show you at least 5 or 6 NT verses that say just that. So that would indicate the God in the OT that was seen was not the Father. But the image of the father.

    KJV
    15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    NKJV
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

    ESV
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by[f] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

    NRSV
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

    RSV
    15 He is the image of the invisible God,

    NET
    He is the image of the invisible God,
     
  8. MTPockets

    MTPockets New Member

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    Hi! 'Rex'

    Well, I gotta' warn yuh ... this is gonna' be a long read ... better git yerself a coffee an' a kookie first. :)

    You wrote: "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image'".
    I found it quaint that you mentioned this verse ... not because it contains the word "US" ... but because Jesus was the first human to be known to be the "image and likeness" of God. All humankind are born in the image of God, but only the faithful of God will be changed into His likeness.
    Anyways, aside from that hurried observation,
    I'm assuming that you're claiming that Jesus Himself had pre-existence; that He was somehow present at Creation.
    As you undoubtedly know, God is spirit (a spirit being) Who possesses unimaginable strength, faith, imagination, knowledge, wisdom, and creative abilities.

    The Word of God is the origin of all things visible and invisible. Again, I remind you of how the gospel of John begins with the words, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. This was in the beginning with God. all things were made through Him and without Him was not any thing made that was made".

    In the original Greek language, it is referred to as the 'Logos'.
    This word 'Logos' has many meanings: speech, calculation, norm, reason, mind, word. In a nutshell, the Logos has to do with the creative thoughts of God; it contains the eternal purposes and intents of God.
    This should remind us of the personified 'Wisdom' found in Proverbs 8:1-9. Therefore, we immediately know that 'Wisdom' was present at the creation and this is what is meant by your quoting, "God said "Let us".

    In Proverbs 8, personified Wisdom plays with the true knowledge, "I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence; I possess knowledge and discretion".
    Further on we read about Wisdom, "I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth"

    The personification of 'Wisdom' means that God's eternal wisdom is substantiated in and through His Word. Meaning to say: God's thoughts occurred before His Word; that the Word reveals the contents of God's wisdom ... His unfathomable wisdom. Both the Word and all the Spirit-filled mankind were, from before the foundation of the world, hidden in God. God's thoughts (Word) are being revealed in each fullness of time which will ultimately become known as a complete whole.
    The scripture says that the Word was God with the intent of saying that it controls all His thoughts and intentions; the executor to achieve all of God's intentions and purposes.
    The Word of God goes out and leads an independent existence. After all, a word always works regardless of the speaker. An example of this is the thoughts and words of the notorious Karl Marx. Although he has long since died, his ideas still inspire millions.
    The Word became flesh "All things were made through Him", (Psalm 33:6 and Rom 4:17).
    The prophet spoke saying, "So shall my word that from my mouth goes forth; it will not return to Me void, but it will do and accomplish what I please, which I send', (Isaiah 55:11). John described this word as a rider, "He went out conquering and to conquer" (Rev 6:2). The rider sat on a white horse which is an image of the Holy Spirit.

    So it was that personified 'Wisdom' was present at Creation. As such, we have a proper perspective concerning the verse, "Let US make man".
    Think about it ... about the creative thoughts required by the Creator to create vibration, speed, color spectrum, brightness, light sources. All this had also to consider the human eye, with the growth of plants and animals. God's 'Wisdom' even permitted the Logos to have light be an image of the invisible spiritual world, "Because the life was the light of men and the light shines in the darkness",(John 1:4,5). It was only after all these thoughts became balanced that God spoke, "Let there be light!"
    The wisdom of God was personified too when it took shape in a human. "Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God", (1Cor 1:30). The Apostle wrote, "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, what we have seen with our own eyes, what we beheld and our hands have the Word of life",(1John 1:1).

    The Word is connected to the power of God's Spirit and this was what overshadowed Mary. The seed of God, (His Word), caused Jesus to became flesh in the womb of Mary. The Holy Spirit does not exist independently. It is the hand of God and, as such, always remains connected with the Father. Mary received the seed of God, His Word, through her faith, "Behold the handmaid of the Lord, unto me according to your word",(Luke 1:38). With the Son of God being born, the fulfillment of the eternal purpose of God through Jesus Christ begins.

    It does not say Jesus was flesh. Instead, the angel Gabriel spoke to Mary saying, "Thou shalt conceive and bear a Son ones and thou shalt call his name Jesus", (Luke 1:31). Neither is it true that Christ became flesh because this was to occur later when Christ was baptized in the Holy Spirit in the Jordan. It as when the Spirit came down as a dove from the heavens upon Jesus that He became the Christ; the Anointed. This is precisely what Peter testified to later saying, "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, (Acts 10:38).
    Neither is it said that God became flesh. No, it is His incorruptible and living seed which became flesh, His Word.

    Do I reject the ideas behind the popular doctrine of trinity? Certainly not!
    But I do reject the incomprehensible argument that some have proposed concerning it.
    The verse of John 5:7 remains true, "For there are three who testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one".
    Please note that John 5:7 does not make mention of Jesus ... only of the Logos ... which indeed was with God and God Himself.
    As a matter of fact, these three (Father, Word and Holy Spirit), are witnesses to the Son.
    The Father clearly bore witness from heaven when He declared, "This is my Son, the beloved, in whom I am well pleased", (Matt 3:17).
    Nevertheless, in this very day we Christians can now say, "There are three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Incarnate Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.
    The Word Incarnate (Jesus) now testifies: "I have overcome and am now (as the Last Adam a man) seated at the right hand of God".
    And, the Holy Spirit testifies that Jesus is the Son of God, truly the Christ. The Holy Spirit also testifies with our spirit that we are destined to be sons of God too.

    Deuteronomy 6:4 says, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the Lord is one.
    What does this oneness of God mean? Can we speak of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit? Is this contrary to a true concept of God?
    At the very outset, I want to say that I wholeheartedly agree with Paul saying, "For us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him".
    While it's clear that, the faithful of the Old Covenant confessed the unity of God, they were yet unable to truly know Him as He is. They remained unfamiliar with His thoughts and plans, and doubted many times to His good intentions. Consequently, they also trembled repeatedly!
    In the fullness of time the Word again went out; loaded full with thoughts and plans of God.
    This is mentioned in Zechariah 14:9, which reads: "And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one".
    Jesus prayed for His people to the Father saying, " And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one", (John 17:22,23).
    God is only fully one when the great destiny for man is completed. This is because the Father as the Creator, His Word as the Savior and the Spirit baptized humanity think and speak and act as one.
    So, it is that the Father and the Son are not two ... but ONE.

    Yes, I know that many will hurry to quote certain texts supporting the pre-existence of Jesus. To cite a few:
    "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven", (John 3:13).
    When Jesus spoke these words, He was the only person in earth who was baptized in the Holy Spirit and who possessed a citizenship, walk, struggle and victory in the unseen world. Jesus said that He had no home on earth, but in heaven. He was the first human species to become a citizen of heaven. As the Word of God, He descended in the flesh.
    "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am", (John 8:58).
    During a conversation with the Jews, they had this question, "Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead?" In His answer, Jesus plainly testified that He was the eternal intention of God from the beginnings.
    For example, we might ask the question: who was first, the human or the cow?
    In the natural world cattle existed prior to the human being. This is because, the eternal counsel of God had cows created for the purposes of (for) the man. Of course, humankind are more than the cow! The cow's creation is inferior to that of humans.
    In the same way, while it's true that Abraham was a righteous man, he was not a Spirit filled man
    man who possessed a citizenship n the heavenlies. Therefore, Jesus was in God's ultimate plan rather than Abraham.

    Our Lord said that no one before him had ascended to heaven. This is because no one before Him possessed a citizenship in the heavenly places, (Eph 2:6). It was Jesus Who opened the kingdom of God to man. It was Jesus Who was the first spiritual man with whom God had communion with by the Holy Spirit.
    Before his fall, Adam was an immature man of God, but the Last Adam is the mature.
    Adam could be compared to a caterpillar while Jesus was the butterfly.
    From the very foundation of the world, the Word contained the idea of the butterfly rather than the caterpillar. God looks at all the things that are not as though they were.
    Jesus was the first who exactly represented the ultimate destiny of man. Jesus was "The brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person", (Heb. 1:3).
    Thus we know what those enigmatic words of Jesus mean: "But many that are first shall be last, and many last first. "Abraham was great because of the promises that he owned. But was not about him, but for his seed, eg: to Christ, (Gal. 3:16,18). John the Baptist too testified, "After me comes a man who has been before me, for He was before me", (John 1:30). Yes, even the least in the kingdom of God is greater and earlier than John!

    "And now, glorify Thou Me, Father, with Thyself glory which I had with thee before the world was (John 17:5).
    Here Jesus points again to the eternal purpose of God to make him a house to create the man with whom he met all the conditions to do so. He was indeed the perfect spiritual man, whom the Father Himself had proposed. He was therefore entitled to the place in the throne of the Father. When Jesus spoke these words, He had overcome the world and its ruler and His mission here on earth was fulfilled, (John 16:33).
    Had Jesus chosen to ascend at that particular time, God would have only received a single partner. God's plan, however, was to bring many sons unto glory. Jesus instead volunteered to become "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world", (Rev 13:8).
    Although this Lamb was present in the plan of God (in the form of the Logos) from the beginnings, it only became reality when Jesus died on the cross of Calvary.

    "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church, "(Col 1:15 -18).
    The Son as Word of God is the incarnation of the God's thoughts ... His Logos. He was the firstborn of all creation, because it was in Jesus that the destiny of man was first revealed.

    With "all things are created by Him" is meant that it is the Son who brings about and completes the restored creation, (re-creation). It is all recreated by Him, (v20), because a perfect humanity can only function in a new heaven and a new earth filled with righteousness.

    "Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men", (Phil 2: 6-7).
    Jesus lived on earth in the perfect "image and likeness" of God", that is to say: in the form of God. So it is that Jesus did not appropriated something to which He had no right. "He was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God", (John 5:18). John wrote of the Incarnate Word, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth", (John 1:14). The unspiritual/natural man recognized Him not. When John saw Jesus in His glorified body, he fell dead at His feet, overwhelmed by the supernatural glory of his Master.

    The Word and the sons of God were both conceived in the womb of Mary by the seed God, which is His Word. We Christians too are begotten by this Word, but in the spiritual world. This is what our Rebirth speaks to. "Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures", (James 1:18). We too have received the Holy Spirit and God dwells within our house. Our bodies are also God's temple because the Spirit of God dwells in us. "Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?", (1Cor 3:16,17).
    Behind the veil of our flesh forms the spiritual body, our soul and spirit and the Holy Spirit. "we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens", (2Cor 5:1&2). The size and stature of this spiritual body depends on our good works, because "the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints", (Rev 19:8). It is our robe of righteousness.
    This spiritual home is the true and eternal temple God. God does not live forever in our physical shell, but in our spiritual body. When this spiritual body is fully developed and perfected, it will the time to be changed and our physical house will be swallowed up into our spiritual home.

    We read, "Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in[d] blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God, ((the Logos!)). And the armies of heaven, (the faithful church of Jesus) arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses", (Rev. 19:11-16).

    In that day too God will be as one. The Father, the Word (in us) and the Holy Spirit become one!
     
  9. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    Thank you for the extensive reply, you have covered a lot of points.

    I have looked at and contemplated Proverbs 8 for a long time.

    There in my opinion is a difference between wisdom and and logos the word.
    Wisdom was a witness not the function of the creation but a first fruit, standing by Him,
    In a similar context Job 38 describes the angels as also being a witness, .Two distinctions here the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy.
    Lucifer we know was refereed to as a morning star. sons of God in Job, as we should know are angels. While the logos as you say is creating, the morning stars and sons of God are witnesses.

    Now wisdom says that she was a master craftsmen, To my understanding having a part but not in the establishing of the heaven and the earth. We also know that Lucifer was established Eze 28:14
    Her delight is in the sons of man, she repeats this in chapter 8. And as I said, was at His side when He the masculine, established the heavens and the earth Proverbs 8:30 Proverbs 8:27 Proverbs 8:22-23 Perhaps just as a mother delights in her children. The ESV doesnt use sons of man. Proverbs 8:4 Proverbs 8:31-32 compare to KJV or NKJV
    It is also interesting to note that wisdom is the feminine, If ever I were to look for a queen of heaven Pro 8 is where I would go. But it is the masculine the logos creation is executed from.

    I also noted when I was looking at the catholic encyclopedia that they include the feminine They of course attribute a great deal of preeminence to the feminine, "Mary" as being the a special set apart vessel uneek in designed to birth Jesus, but the scriptures are silent. Perhaps similar to your writing that wisdom was a participant in the founding construction, of creation, a working part. There is no doubt in my mind the feminine is a part of creation, but Eve was brought forth from Adam if I'm not mistaken. I do believe this is the preeminence of wisdom in the same fashion. She herself say I was by His side. Just as Eve was at Adams side.
    Thank you again, you have given me food for thought, And perhaps I have given to you as well.
    You didn't comment on the invisible God verses, no man has seen verses in relation to OT visual manifestations of God.
     
  10. MTPockets

    MTPockets New Member

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    Hi! Rex
    I'm really enjoying this discussion with you and I sincerely thank you for making the effort to speak about things openly and without accusation.or cynicism.
    Yes, my apologies ... I did in fact neglect to reply to your comment saying:
    "I really don't see the big deal about invisible God manifest in a visible form with body like a man, and working threw His Spirit. But people get all bent out of shape when you say no one has seen God, yet I can show you at least 5 or 6 NT verses that say just that. So that would indicate the God in the OT that was seen was not the Father. But the image of the father."
    Ummm, it's essentially true that no one has seen God.
    Well, by that I mean: seen Him with unveiled eyes ... seen Him with full clarity.
    Yes, they have perceived His presence and tasted His goodness but no one has really 'seen' Him in the fullest sense of the word.
    At this very hour, the vast majority of Christians hold to a false image of God in their hearts and minds. It could be said of them too that they have not seen God.
    I don't believe that God can be completely known; He's so utterly immense and with unfathomable depths. Yet we have the confidence that "the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God".
     
  11. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    It all depends on who I'm speaking to. It's called discernment. With you its the recognition of a fellow brother, someone that has looked, sought out and is on a path yet incomplete "as I am as well", but a mutual understanding, nether of us yet holds the entire revelation about this subject.
    But yet there is no intimidation or contrary Spirit as we stop to compare one anothers notes.
    That is truly the manifestation of God. And a testimony of our looking forward, I have no sense of error in you, I'm not compelled as I might be with others, to remind, your doctrine may be impeding your walk. Such encounters are rare on line as well as in person.
    It speaks volumes about the grace we walk in as we are being refined.

    In all I would venture to say you to have experienced the rearranging of your understanding as your mind has been renewed, I have, but they don't come by following or "blindly accepting" dogmas, They come with the unquenchable desire to know God, My measuring rod is the word, I can't bear to suffer scripture that is in apparent contrast to scripture. I have always found its a sign of not properly understanding or dividing the word of God. And threw the years I have had to with fear and trembling at times, change my understanding. Its a part of growing. We shall be lead into the understanding, we are not inherently in dwelt with understanding.
    John 16:13 we are being guided, that implies we remain teachable. I believe you understand this as well as experienced such things.

    I might add for the benefit of others that may read this post, this is not the result of the casting out of demons that co-inhabit me.
     
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