Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Marilyn C

Encounter Team
Staff member
Encounter Team
Mar 16, 2016
1,501
414
83
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
ABSOLUTELY, today we ( Gal 3:28, 1 Cor 12:13, Col 3:11) are in the MYSTERY age that was ONLY revealed to Paul.
When this MYSTERY 'age' ends, prophecy resumes :)
I had a quick look and will go slowly when I have time. It seems everything that I believe. Thanks for the link.

Oh, just a point I wouldn`t say that Paul founded Christianity, but rather Christ did.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

rvmb

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2025
1,252
330
83
Adelaide
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
I had a quick look and will go slowly when I have time. It seems everything that I believe. Thanks for the link.

Oh, just a point I wouldn`t say that Paul founded Christianity, but rather Christ did.
Yet Paul is the one who teaches Salvation to believers today.
Acts 9:10-15, Acts 15:6-25, Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16, Gal 2:7-9
If you believe otherwise, I'd be happy to read the verses that (AFTER Paul was commissioned ) teach the 12 have the same authority today.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: WPM

Marilyn C

Encounter Team
Staff member
Encounter Team
Mar 16, 2016
1,501
414
83
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Yet Paul is the one who teaches Salvation to believers today.
Acts 9:10-15, Acts 15:6-25, Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16, Gal 2:7-9
If you believe otherwise, I'd be happy to read the verses that (AFTER Paul was commissioned ) teach the 12 have the same authority today.
I believe that it is the Head of the Body by His Holy Spirit that gave the apostle Paul the revelation of the Body of Christ. And it is what He has given Paul to write that we also learn of salvation through Christ.
 

rvmb

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2025
1,252
330
83
Adelaide
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
I believe that it is the Head of the Body by His Holy Spirit that gave the apostle Paul the revelation of the Body of Christ. And it is what He has given Paul to write that we also learn of salvation through Christ.
""And it is what He has given Paul to write that we also learn of salvation through Christ.""
Yes, Eph1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4 << The Gospel that applies to believers today which is different to the Acts 2:38-45 Gospel that the 12 taught before Paul was commissioned.
If you disagree, what verses do you rely on for your view ?
 

Marilyn C

Encounter Team
Staff member
Encounter Team
Mar 16, 2016
1,501
414
83
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
""And it is what He has given Paul to write that we also learn of salvation through Christ.""
Yes, Eph1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4 << The Gospel that applies to believers today which is different to the Acts 2:38-45 Gospel that the 12 taught before Paul was commissioned.
If you disagree, what verses do you rely on for your view ?
We agree on so much. However, we may differ from this point of when the Body of Christ started. (if that is your question)

I see that God still had His hand out to Israel to repent till we see them as the rulers (leaders of the Jews) not repent. (Acts 28: 3 - 28)

Then we read that when the Lord ascended He gave of His own ministries - apostles, prophets etc. (Eph. 4: 11) Barnabas was recognized as an apostle (Acts 14: 14) and he was part of the church at Antioch which had prophets and teachers. (Acts 13: 1)

The believers did not know of the details of the Body of Christ or what it was however, they were in Christ by His Holy Spirit. It needed the apostle Paul to give the revelation of the Body of Christ for believers to come into the full understanding of what they were - a Body, the New Man coming to maturity as the perfect, mature man. (Eph. 4: 13)
 

rvmb

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2025
1,252
330
83
Adelaide
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
We agree on so much. However, we may differ from this point of when the Body of Christ started. (if that is your question)

I see that God still had His hand out to Israel to repent till we see them as the rulers (leaders of the Jews) not repent. (Acts 28: 3 - 28)

Then we read that when the Lord ascended He gave of His own ministries - apostles, prophets etc. (Eph. 4: 11) Barnabas was recognized as an apostle (Acts 14: 14) and he was part of the church at Antioch which had prophets and teachers. (Acts 13: 1)

The believers did not know of the details of the Body of Christ or what it was however, they were in Christ by His Holy Spirit. It needed the apostle Paul to give the revelation of the Body of Christ for believers to come into the full understanding of what they were - a Body, the New Man coming to maturity as the perfect, mature man. (Eph. 4: 13)
""The believers did not know of the details of the Body of Christ or what it was however, they were in Christ by His Holy Spirit"""
Before Paul was commissioned, how were they saved, Acts 2:38-45 or Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4 ?
 

Marilyn C

Encounter Team
Staff member
Encounter Team
Mar 16, 2016
1,501
414
83
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
""The believers did not know of the details of the Body of Christ or what it was however, they were in Christ by His Holy Spirit"""
Before Paul was commissioned, how were they saved, Acts 2:38-45 or Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4 ?
Yes I see `the Apostle`s Doctrine and in the temple,` all refer to Jewish believers in Jesus being both Lord and Christ, (Acts 2: 36) Still we read that the apostles also taught -

`Repent, and let everyone of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the Holy Spirit.` (Acts 2: 38)

The 12 apostles preached the foundational truths of Christ. it is only later that Paul taught about the Body of Christ. All I can say is that the Lord knows who are in the Body and who are of Israel.
 

rvmb

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2025
1,252
330
83
Adelaide
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Yes I see `the Apostle`s Doctrine and in the temple,` all refer to Jewish believers in Jesus being both Lord and Christ, (Acts 2: 36) Still we read that the apostles also taught -

`Repent, and let everyone of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the Holy Spirit.` (Acts 2: 38)

The 12 apostles preached the foundational truths of Christ. it is only later that Paul taught about the Body of Christ. All I can say is that the Lord knows who are in the Body and who are of Israel.
Yes I see `the Apostle`s Doctrine and in the temple,` all refer to Jewish believers in Jesus being both Lord and Christ, (Acts 2: 36) Still we read that the apostles also taught -

`Repent, and let everyone of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the Holy Spirit.` (Acts 2: 38)

The 12 apostles preached the foundational truths of Christ. it is only later that Paul taught about the Body of Christ. All I can say is that the Lord knows who are in the Body and who are of Israel.
""All I can say is that the Lord knows who are in the Body and who are of Israel.""
Yet Gal 3:28, 1 Cor 12:13, Col 3:11 teaches that TODAY there is no difference ALL are one, no division, no boundaries.
You need a break Marilyn, I can at times ask too many question and quote too many verses :)
 

Marilyn C

Encounter Team
Staff member
Encounter Team
Mar 16, 2016
1,501
414
83
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
""All I can say is that the Lord knows who are in the Body and who are of Israel.""
Yet Gal 3:28, 1 Cor 12:13, Col 3:11 teaches that TODAY there is no difference ALL are one, no division, no boundaries.
You need a break Marilyn, I can at times ask too many question and quote too many verses :)
Thanks I better attend to tea. See you another time for a good discussion. I did enjoy it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rvmb

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
5,722
2,482
113
74
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
`the General Assembly-

and church of the first-born who are registered in heaven,

to God the judge of all,

to the spirits of just men made perfect...` (Heb. 12: 23)


Clearly TWO groups.

Two groups; Jew & Gentile made one!
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
5,722
2,482
113
74
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Prophet Ezekiel (& others) reveal that Israel will rule over the nations of the earth. (Ez. 17: 22 & 23)

Marilyn, you're reading the prophets as if you're still waiting for the promised Messiah to come? God says Israel shall rule over the nations of the earth, through the spiritual Kingdom of God/Heaven. This is how Israel of God shall rule over and is ruling over the earth. When Messiah; Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior came, He came with a Kingdom. Though the Kingdom began very small through Israel of Old who were of faith, once Christ came the Kingdom of God in Heaven began to grow into a mighty Kingdom and it grows still. The promise is not to ethnic Israel! The promise is to Israel of God which since Christ has come is both Jew and Gentile together finding shelter under the Tree of Life!

Ezekiel 17:22-24 (KJV) Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also take of the highest branch of the high cedar, and will set it; I will crop off from the top of his young twigs a tender one, and will plant it upon an high mountain and eminent: In the mountain of the height of Israel will I plant it: and it shall bring forth boughs, and bear fruit, and be a goodly cedar: and under it shall dwell all fowl of every wing; in the shadow of the branches thereof shall they dwell. And all the trees of the field shall know that I the LORD have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the LORD have spoken and have done it.

Isaiah 27:6 (KJV) He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit
.

John 12:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

John 15:5-8 (KJV) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered
; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Luke 13:18-19 (KJV) Then said he, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.

Matthew 13:31-32 (KJV) Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Psalm 72:16-20 (KJV) There shall be an handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth. His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed. Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things. And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen. The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.

The Church on earth that is the representation of the Kingdom of God in Heaven is now and has been ruling over all who have come into the Kingdom of God in Heaven as we are born again. The Church rules over the whole earth because the Kingdom of God is not limited to only one nation, but is filled with people of faith from every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue.

The only way the prophecies of Old make sense is when we realize they are all fulfilled, and being fulfilled since Christ has come to the earth a man to rule over His people (Church) with a rod of iron, through the sharp sword (Bible) that goes out of His/our mouths.

Revelation 12:5 (KJV) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation 19:15 (KJV) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
5,722
2,482
113
74
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And where does it say that the Body of Christ will be in the New Jerusalem?

Who is this bride adorned for her Husband? According to Scripture the faithful Church is the bride of Christ who shall come down from God out of heaven after the first heaven and earth were passed away. The faithful Church is not built of one nation of people, it is built and shall be complete from all nations, tribes, people and tongues.

Revelation 21:1-2 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

John 3:29 (KJV) He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

2 Corinthians 11:2 (KJV) For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Revelation 21:9 (KJV)
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WPM and Nancy

Nancy

Encounter Team - Eagle
Staff member
Encounter Team
Apr 30, 2018
17,784
27,214
113
Greensboro NC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Who is this bride adorned for her Husband? According to Scripture the faithful Church is the bride of Christ who shall come down from God out of heaven after the first heaven and earth were passed away. The faithful Church is not built of one nation of people, it is built and shall be complete from all nations, tribes, people and tongues.

Revelation 21:1-2 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

John 3:29 (KJV) He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

2 Corinthians 11:2 (KJV) For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Revelation 21:9 (KJV)
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Agreed, the church is the body and the bride of Christ...who are the guests?
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
5,722
2,482
113
74
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And let us not forget -

`For Jacob`s sake; and Israel my elect.` (Isa. 45: 4)

Jacob is the personal name of the father of the twelve tribes of Israel of Old, Jacob whom I love. "Israel my elect" is Christ.

Isaiah 45:3-4 (KJV) And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Jacob symbolizing Israel of Old saved according to grace through faith elect of God. And Israel of God elect according to grace through faith from New Covenant Israel where there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but two people who become one in Christ.
 
Last edited:

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
5,722
2,482
113
74
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Agreed, the church is the body and the bride of Christ...who are the guests?

I assume you're referring to the parable about the Kingdom of Heaven.

Matthew 22:2 (KJV) The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

Matthew 22:9-10 (KJV) Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

The guests are all people without distinction, but not without exception. The gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ is offered to all the peoples of the whole world, that whosoever believes on the Lord shall be saved. But not all shall believe the gospel, many will hear and remain in unbelief. The church on earth represents the Kingdom of God in heaven. Since the gospel, that is the message about Christ is freely offered to all mankind, so too the church as she exists on earth is open and has both believers (wheat/good) and unbelievers (tares/bad) together. The guests invited to hear the gospel of the Kingdom of God and believe represent the True, faithful Church, and spiritually in the Kingdom of God in heaven, but the guests invited to hear the gospel of the Kingdom of God who remain in unbelief represent the guests in the parable improperly clothed. They were not clothed in the righteousness of Christ (remained in unbelief). At the end of this age when Christ comes again, those guests (members of the churches) not found having the righteousness of Christ shall be cast into outer darkness, having been called when hearing the gospel preached, but not among the chosen elect of God because they never believe on Christ for eternal life.

Matthew 22:11-14 (KJV) And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: WPM and Nancy

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
11,091
5,914
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
OK, good.

1. NO. The Body of Christ and Israel are grafted into the Lord. Rom. 11: 9 - 11. That says their eyes have been darkened. The grafting in is in Rom. 11: 16 & 18. There we read of root that is holy, nourishing and supporting. Only the Lord does that.

`For if the first-fruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and is the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, were grafted in among them, and with them become partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.` (Rom. 11: 16 - 18)

Of course Jesus sustains this tree. Of course He is the root. But what type of tree is it? Paul carefully describes the Jews who have been cut off as “natural branches” and being of “their own olive tree” (Romans 11:24). He is showing how we believing Gentiles have been brought into this elect Israeli tree on an equal standing to the believing Jews.

No one could surely dispute we are looking at an Israeli tree. Romans 11:24 explains, speaking about natural Israel: “these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?” This is an Israeli tree that holds Israeli citizens. But it was not merely a natural Israeli tree but a spiritual Israeli tree. After all, if it were simply natural there would be absolutely no reason to cut out natural Israelites simply on the grounds of their race. We are clearly looking at a spiritual tree that accommodates both the believing Jew and the believing Gentile from both Old and New Testament. It embodies all those who belong to the “household of faith” throughout time.

2. Ethnic Israel. God`s word says we `were aliens from the Commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenant of promise, having no hope and without God in the world....Now therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God.` (Eph. 2: 12 & 19)

Yes, fellow citizens of God`s household but with different inheritances. (Heb. 11: 16 Rev. 3: 21)

Jews and Gentiles finish up sharing the same citizenship and enjoying the same blessings. Gentiles are described as being “fellowcitizens” with Jews through the sovereign work of the Lord. What is this citizenship? It is plainly and unambiguously identified in the reading as “the citizenship of Israel.” God did not create a new Israel; the Gentiles were grafted into an existing organism.

Ephesians 2:19 shows that faithful Gentiles are “no more strangers and foreigners” (as in literal outsiders), but rather have become real active participating “fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God.” Through Christ, they enjoy a common “citizenship of Israel.” They are no longer alienated. There is no distinction between them in Christ.

We should carefully note: to belong to “the citizenship of Israel” requires saving faith. This proves that we are looking at a spiritual organism. What is more, natural birthright means absolutely nothing in regards to participating in this spiritual entity. Significantly, the people of God of all races have been integrated into true Israel – spiritual Israel, not natural Christ-rejecting Israel. Those Jews that made up the membership of the early Church – faithful Israel, have been joined by faithful Gentiles throughout the nations under the select designation of “the citizenship of Israel.”

3. God`s word does not say merged. God`s word delineates precisely - `as many as walk according to this rule. peace and mercy be upon them, AND.....AND upon the Israel of God.` (Gal. 6: 16)

Anything that sniffs of unity, oneness or merging of Jews and Gentiles you refute. Why is that? You are fixated with promoting an apartheid between the people of God. That is unbiblical. You turn Paul’s whole argument on its head and make it nonsensical by trying to maintain a distinction between Jewish believers and Gentile believers, when that was actually the opposite to Paul’s intent and totally opposite to what he was teaching in this passage. You put a division in Galatians 6:15-16 between Jewish and Gentile believers that actually contradicts everything that Paul was actually teaching and trying to repudiate in the text. He was actually demonstrating that one’s ethnic standing meant nothing when it comes to the blessing and favour of God, but rather it is only one’s spiritual standing that counts. He then adds a postscript: “And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”

The reading declares, “And as many as walk according to this rule” (what rule?) – the non-racial new birth experience, – then “peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.” Paul places a blessing upon all who “walk according to this rule” – all who are conformed to this standard. As Christopher W. Cowan puts: “All who have experienced the new creation in Christ will have lives that manifest conformity to it” (Context Is Everything: “The Israel of God” in Galatians 6:16). Manifestly, Paul only had one company in mind: the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ.

kai epi

Galatians 6:15-16 states, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on [Gr. epi] them, and mercy, even on [Gr. kai epi] the Israel of God.

First of all, the Greek language scholar will know: kai has both a copulative and a cumulative force. The Greek word kai can be translated “and” or “even.” Copulative refers to the joining together of coordinate words or word groups and expressing addition of their meanings. Cumulative refers to a snowballing effect. It means increasing by successive additions. It is formed by the addition of new material of the same kind. The best way to illustrate this is that the word can be equally translated as “and” or “even.”

For example, in Luke 9:23 Jesus said: “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and [Gr. kai] take up his cross daily, and follow me.” According to plain and straightforward contextual reading of this verse, and an examination of the original Greek, Jesus is speaking about the same thing. We are looking at one behavior, not two. To argue otherwise is to totally negate the meaning of the text.

This Greek coupling of kai epi in Galatians 6:16 is found together in a couple of other places in the New Testament. It is always helpful to compare similar or identical usages elsewhere in Scripture. This gives us a greater sense of meaning. Significantly, in these cases rather than suggesting a distinction in factions they actually show an enlargement of detail relating to the exact same subject matter. The coupling together of these words simply adds greater depth or more information to what has already been outlined. In each NT case, it is used in a cumulative sense. The second noun basically adds emphasis or further data to the first. It is therefore acceptable to interpret the same as “even on.”

An example of this is found in Christ’s words in Matthew 21:5, which similarly reads, “Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon [Gr. epi] an ass, and [Gr. kai epi] a colt the foal of an ass.”

The same idea is presented here (surrounded by the exact same key Greek words) as Galatians 6:16: epi ... kai epi (“on ... even on”). No one would be as naïve as to argue that the “ass” and the “colt” mentioned above are two different beasts. No, it is obvious that this is speaking of the one same animal. It literally reads, “on an ass, even on a colt the foal of an ass.” The “even on” simply adds further detail upon the description already given on the matter. In this case, not only is it an ass, but it is “a colt the foal of an ass.” This verse assists us in our understanding of Galatians 6:16, and illustrates the real import of this much-debated text.

The same formation of Greek words is found in the same sequence, in order to present the same idea in Revelation 14:6, which reads, “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto [Gr. epi] them that dwell on the earth, and [Gr. kai epi] to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.”

No sensible Bible student would suggest that that there are two different companies in view in this reading. Even though the word kai is translated “and” (like Galatians 6:16) in the KJV, it doesn’t negate the fact that those that are said to “dwell on the earth” are in fact those of “every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.”

Galatians 6:16 therefore agrees with these other two passages. The construction of the passage in the original Greek leads us to the obvious conclusion that we are looking at one unitary people. There can be no doubt: the phrase “the Israel of God” is carefully and deliberately related to all those who have experienced the new birth (who are the focus of this passage).
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: rwb

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
11,091
5,914
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
4. Paul is talking to actual Jews and explaining that a Jew is one inwardly.

`Indeed you are called a Jew and rest on the law....but he is a Jew who is one inwardly...` (Rom. 2: 17 & 28)

The whole import of Paul’s teaching in Romans 2:17-29 revolves around defining what a real Jew is under the new covenant and what a true heathen is. Paul declares in Romans 2:25-29: “For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit [Gr. pneuma].”

Romans 2:25-29 speaks for itself. Just like the act of physical circumcision proved that a man was a true physical Jew in the Old Testament so the act of spiritual circumcision proves that a man was a true spiritual Jew in the New Testament.

The natural ethnic title “uncircumcision” (normally used to describe a Gentile) is amazingly used to describe the unbelieving Jew. Also, the natural ethnic title “circumcision” (normally used to describe a natural Jew) is amazingly used to describe the believing Gentile. This would have been anathema to the unbelieving Jews of Paul’s day. After all, Paul is fundamentally teaching: to become an authentic child of Abraham does not require one to be a natural Jew or circumcision. This would have been the greatest insult to a Jew. After all, they considered they were the chosen race.

Paul basically spiritualizes the terms circumcision and Jew to mean believer, and uncircumcision or Gentile to mean unbeliever. He teaches, if a man accepts Christ (regardless of his ethnicity) he is a spiritual Jew (or true circumcision); if a man rejects Christ (regardless of his ethnicity) he is a spiritual heathen (or true uncircumcision). Essentially, he is showing: Gentiles can become true Jews through faith in Jesus, and Jews can forfeit their right to be considered true Jews if they reject Jesus.

Talking about believing Gentiles, in Romans 2:26-29, Paul’s point is that through salvation, Gentiles who are physically uncircumcised are considered as circumcised and regarded as true Jews. They are indeed spiritual Israel. The key of course is faith in Christ – which only comes through the regenerating power of the Spirit of God. Under the new covenant, true Jewishness and circumcision are not physical realities but spiritual concepts made possible by the work of the Spirit of God. It is totally impossible for someone to come into a living relationship with God outside of Christ and the work of the Spirit. Each believer must, of necessity, be ‘born of the Spirit’. (John 3:3-8).

5. Abraham is the `father` of all who believe. Obviously not physically but of faith. (Rom. 4: 12) `...but who walk in the steps of faith which our father Abraham had...`

At least we agree on something.

6. Mount Zion (the ruling area) and the city are two aspects of Jerusalem in heaven.

`But you have come to Mount Zion AND to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem...` (Heb. 12: 22)

The Lord will rule from Mount Zion with the Body of Christ.

`I have set MY King on My holy hill of Zion.` (Ps. 2: 6)
`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne...` (Rev. 3: 21)


The city part comes down out of heaven from God with the Old Testament Saints.

`Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.`(Heb. 11: 16)
`Then I, Joh saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God...` (Rev. 21: 2)

When the New Testament references these Old Testament prophecies and applies them to the new covenant era we see the spiritual sense of Zion (Sion) today. Zion/Sion in a New Testament sense is not a natural earthly location but a spiritual abode that the people of God enter. Christ is the cornerstone of a wider spiritual building located within Zion, which believers inhabit. It is a dwelling place that the Christ-rejecter cannot enjoy.

Romans 9:30-33 continues in the same vein: the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”

In the New Testament, Christ rules over spiritual Zion. All who embrace Him reside there and enjoy the spiritual blessings that accompanies intimacy with Him. Everything in both the Old and New Testament is pointing towards Jesus Christ. It is not about physical earthly land. It is not about the Middle East. It is not about a brick temple. It is about spiritual territory. It is about a heavenly kingdom. Earthly Zion means nothing today; heavenly Zion is everything. It is not about an earthly king, but rather a heavenly king. It is not about race; it is rather about grace.

“The stone which the builders rejected” (Psalm 118:22), “a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence” (Isaiah 8:14) or the “stumblingstone” (Romans 9:32-33) within Zion (Sion) is Jesus Christ. Scripture shows us that the rejection of that figurative stone was the rejection of our Savior. Paul, in Romans 9:30-33, shows natural Gentiles (heathens) accepting that stone, experiencing salvation, and entering into the favor of God. Natural Israel, on the other hand, is shown in Romans 9:31–32 to have stumbled at Christ the rock.

Romans 9:33 broadens Zion out to “whosoever believes in him shall not be ashamed.” This includes God’s people of all nationalities. Those who were hitherto aliens and strangers to Almighty God have now graciously “attained to righteousness” whereas natural Israel “hath not attained to the law of righteousness.” The spiritual application is obvious.

1 Peter 2:3-11 adds further evidence to our enquiry: “If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Peter does not relate Sion (Zion) to the natural realm and to ethnicity. It does not apply without salvation to natural Jews or to the physical nation of Israel, as modern-day Dispensationalists do. Quite the opposite! He shows Zion to be a spiritual place that all believers inhabit. God’s people are often referred to in Scripture in figurative terms. In this passage, they are specifically described in building terms. The Church is described as a spiritual structure incorporating spiritual building blocks – collectively known as His body – the temple. In 1 Peter 2:6, believers are described as being “lively stones” in God’s “spiritual house,” and as being a “holy priesthood” offering up “spiritual sacrifices.” This building is said to be located in “Zion,” with Christ as its “chief cornerstone.” These are the only sacrifices that are acceptable to God today.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: rwb

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
11,091
5,914
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
God has not done away with His covenant of PROMISE. And that is different from the Old Covenant which Israel disobeyed.

The New Covenant is Jesus (Isa. 49: 8) and it is through Him that we, the believers in the Body of Christ are brought into fellowship with God AND also for Israel when they turn to Him, for the Lord will fulfill His promises to them too.

`And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.` (Gal. 3: 17)
That covenant was conditional and continues today in a believing spiritual people of all nations.

Do you believe in the rebuilding of the the old covenant temple in Jerusalem? If so, for what purpose? Do you believe in the restoration of the old covenant animals sacrifice system? If so, for what purpose? I believe in the restoration of the old covenant priesthood? If so, for what purpose?
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
11,091
5,914
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
ABSOLUTELY, today we ( Gal 3:28, 1 Cor 12:13, Col 3:11) are in the MYSTERY age that was ONLY revealed to Paul.
When this MYSTERY 'age' ends, prophecy resumes :)
Your link is full of so much error. Typical extra-biblical Dispie propaganda. There is so much nonsense it would be hard to know where to start.
 
Last edited:

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
11,091
5,914
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
ABSOLUTELY, today we ( Gal 3:28, 1 Cor 12:13, Col 3:11) are in the MYSTERY age that was ONLY revealed to Paul.
When this MYSTERY 'age' ends, prophecy resumes :)
Those who insist on maintaining Israel’s covenantal role and yet separating them from the New Testament congregation are absolutely dependent upon maintaining the old covenant arrangement. The only problem is: it has been long-abolished. What is more, the New Testament structure allows no distinction whatsoever between Jews and Gentiles, something that marks the old arrangement. Those who promote that today advance spiritual apartheid to separate Israel from the remainder of God’s people. Those who do this have no understanding of the teaching of Christ, the new covenant guidelines and the repeated teaching of the sacred New Testament text.