Instruction in righteousness

[Episkopos]

Great idea..... back to the topic at hand. What you call understanding, I call gross error.



Scripture teaches the opposite. Our righteousness counts for nothing, and He is our foundation...

We surrender into His covering righteousness through OUR repentance (our righteousness) , not HIS repentance.... and WE are the ones who build on the foundation of Christ? How? by righteousness.

But most people will NOT do this. Instead, through ignorance and a lively ego...most will build on UNRIGHTEOUSNESS and call it the righteousness of God. Why won't these be warned? They are predestined to fail.


Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

And this was prophesied by Isaiah...

Is. 26:10 Let favour (grace) be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the Lord.

 

[Mr E]

Why is there so little repentance in todays' church? Why is there so much self-righteousness and almost no righteousness (let alone an example of the God's covering righteousness). People have been taught that God sees sin as holy. So then people hold the truth but IN unrighteousness. Few have any understanding of the nature of either holiness or righteousness.

Can you name one example of a church that teaches that God sees sin as holy? You have a burr in your saddle regarding Calvinism.... is that their teaching?

 

[Mr E]

Acts 20:28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

Have you tried Carol's sheep dip?

The happy thread

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Episkopos]

Can you name one example of a church that teaches that God sees sin as holy? You have a burr in your saddle regarding Calvinism.... is that their teaching?

All protestant churches do. Luther did...and people follow Luther unquestioningly...like what Keturah said..."idolization"...(whatever that means). A fresh coat of snow over a dunghill...that shields God's ability to discern what we really are???!!???

But as you can see by my poll...and how everyone actually agrees with Catholic and NOT Protestant doctrine (not Luther). The only person with the guts to speak out the obvious error of self-imputation was @Enoch111. He claims to be as righteous as God...through a very bad understanding of "imputation"...and no one blinks an eye. Swallowing camels?

People would have to have a better grasp of the truth to see the enormity of the error.

Did Jesus die so that a human ego could boast of being as righteous as God...through belief in an alternative gospel by "imputation" of something of God on a lie...that has NO power over sin?

 

[Mr E]

Can you name one example of a church that teaches that God sees sin as holy?

All protestant churches do.

That's simply not true John. (that's the nicest way I can say it).

 

[Adam]

Not condemned with the world. But we will each be judged personally for what we have done with what we have been given. All who believe will be saved. But saved to what end? To be cast into perpetual outer darkness? To be among the nations that are saved? Or, to be ruling and reigning with Christ? You have to look deeper into this...beyond a binary religious opinion.

Christ died for mankind's sins.

So what does this mean? Did he just die on a cross and chill out for 3 days? Jesus referred to his ressurection as "the sign of Jonah".

39 But he replied to them, “An evil and adulterous generation craves a sign. Yet no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah, 40 because just as Jonah was in the stomach of the sea creature for three days and three nights,[b] so the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.

What was Jonah doing in that whale? Chilling out? No. He was being tortured by his conscience... and so was Jesus. He was shown the sins of mankind. Jesus is God right? Didn't God create everything, both sinner and saint? Now it came time for God to judge Himself.

Jesus, as a man, only knew what His Father showed Him.

15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

So when Jesus died and ascended to Godhood, God the Father showed Jesus everything. That is why Jesus was in hell for 3 days (though in the spirit world, 1 day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day) contemplating all the lives of mankind. Your life, my life, he lived them out and saw everything first hand (hello Jesus). So what is important about Jesus coming back from the dead? He forgave them, he forgave everyone, he found peace with it all. He forgave Himself.

Nobody has ever returned from hell, have they? But Jesus was condemned for all the sins of mankind and ascended to heaven. So don't you understand, the difference between heaven and hell is - a state of consciousness. There was no one that Jesus didn't love, because they are all a part of Him. And in each part, there was something worth saving.

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Jesus now had the keys to hell and death, and the second death had no power. The key to hell and death is - love. Love for life and all its experiences, all the shame and glory and despair and triumph, these things all together, the sum of every possible experience, that is God, and God is good.

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

All protestant churches do.

wow. You do not know much about other churches.. I have never been to a church that teaches that. and I have been a part of many socalled protestant churches (although I do not protest any church, so the name protestant is innaccurate)

 

[Episkopos]

Can you name one example of a church that teaches that God sees sin as holy?



That's simply not true John. (that's the nicest way I can say it).

Maybe you need to be better informed. The Reformation threw out the Catholic idea of God IMPARTING righteousness to the one who is ready to be elevated into holiness. But Luther hated that idea. He said, rather, that God imputes His own righteousness on a believer "just as if he never sinned". IOW God only sees the perfected believer...not the sin. He only can see the snow that covers the dunghill, not the dunghill. So then protestant grace makes God blind to our true condition...instead of empowering the believer to walk as Jesus walked.

Be honest and admit that you don't believe in the grace of God..that it is sufficient for us to walk in the perfection of Christ. Protestant holiness is about the individual...ALL believers are holy individually. Catholic holiness is about the corporate entity (Church)...only those who belong to the RCC are holy. But neither has the truth about either level of holiness.

People love self-help books. And the Lutheran doctrines appeal to that part of the human soul...the ego. And the religious ego eats that kind of thing for breakfast. Not only that...but we don't have to wait for God...no...we can declare ourselves righteous right now because of our beliefs...so that we can believe we are righteous...as righteous as God! Self-imputation of God's righteousness? Not even the Pharisees went that far. They only considered themselves as humanly righteous.
How many can see that God upped the ante with the New Covenant? With more power...comes more responsibility. With the new power of grace comes the deeper sin of self-righteousness...on a scale that would make the worst Pharisee blush.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Maybe you need to be better informed. The Reformation threw out the Catholic idea of God IMPARTING righteousness to the one who is ready to be elevated into holiness. But Luther hated that idea. He said, rather, that God imputes His own righteousness on a believer "just as if he never sinned". IOW God only sees the perfected believer...not the sin. He only can see the snow that covers the dunghill, not the dunghill. So then protestant grace makes God blind to our true condition...instead of empowering the believer to walk as Jesus walked.

Wow. again, you do not know the people you are attacking.. Have you ever studied what they (we)actually believe?

Be honest and admit that you don't believe in the grace of God..that it is sufficient for us to walk in the perfection of Christ. Protestant holiness is about the individual...ALL believers are holy individually. Catholic holiness is about the corporate entity (Church)...only those who belong to the RCC are holy. But neither has the truth about either level of holiness.

People love self-help books. And the Lutheran doctrines appeal to that part of the human soul...the ego. And the religious ego eats that kind of thing for breakfast. Not only that...but we don't have to wait for God...no...we can declare ourselves righteous right now because of our beliefs...so that we can believe we are righteous...as righteous as God! Self-imputation of God's righteousness? Not even the Pharisees went that far. They only considered themselves as humanly righteous.

if your not protestant (not catholic) or catholic. what are you?

and again, Your view opf my belief is WRONG

Holiness is not about each induvidual believer, it is about God. God sees his son. not us. our righteousness is as filthy rags..

 

[Episkopos]

Christ died for mankind's sins.

yes, But then you go on to say other things as if Jesus only died for the church. You are mixing apples with hand-grenades here.

Jesus didn't die for our justification. No, He was RAISED to life for the justification of LIFE (Read Romans 5) for those who believe. He DIED for the sins of the whole world...especially those who believe (but not exclusively)

That means that ALL who walk in the resurrection life of Jesus are justified by the blood (life) of Christ.

If you want to understand the bible, you have to compare like with like.

 

[Mr E]

Maybe you need to be better informed. The Reformation threw out the Catholic idea of God IMPARTING righteousness to the one who is ready to be elevated into holiness. But Luther hated that idea. He said, rather, that God imputes His own righteousness on a believer "just as if he never sinned". IOW God only sees the perfected believer...not the sin. He only can see the snow that covers the dunghill, not the dunghill. So then protestant grace makes God blind to our true condition...instead of empowering the believer to walk as Jesus walked.

Be honest and admit that you don't believe in the grace of God..that it is sufficient for us to walk in the perfection of Christ. Protestant holiness is about the individual...ALL believers are holy individually. Catholic holiness is about the corporate entity (Church)...only those who belong to the RCC are holy. But neither has the truth about either level of holiness.

People love self-help books. And the Lutheran doctrines appeal to that part of the human soul...the ego. And the religious ego eats that kind of thing for breakfast. Not only that...but we don't have to wait for God...no...we can declare ourselves righteous right now because of our beliefs...so that we can believe we are righteous...as righteous as God! Self-imputation of God's righteousness? Not even the Pharisees went that far. They only considered themselves as humanly righteous.

It's the equivalent of bringing your pocket-knife to a sword-fight.... or a sword to a......


No churches teach that God sees sin as holy. (did you just tell me to be honest? )


I can speak with clarity about the most recent self-help book I've read. It was called The Sum of All Possibilities in Christ --the author promotes the idea of lifting himself up in self-righteousness, that God then builds upon as if HE is the one who needs help.

 

[Adam]

yes, But then you go on to say other things as if Jesus only died for the church. You are mixing apples with hand-grenades here.

Jesus didn't die for our justification. No, He was RAISED to life for the justification of LIFE (Read Romans 5) for those who believe. He DIED for the sins of the whole world...especially those who believe (but not exclusively)

That means that ALL who walk in the resurrection life of Jesus are justified by the blood (life) of Christ.

If you want to understand the bible, you have to compare like with like.

The Church of God is all of mankind

1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[Episkopos]

It's the equivalent of bringing your pocket-knife to a sword-fight.... or a sword to a......


No churches teach that God sees sin as holy. (did you just tell me to be honest? )


I can speak with clarity about the most recent self-help book I've read. It was called The Sum of All Possibilities in Christ --the author promotes the idea of lifting himself up in self-righteousness, that God then builds upon as if HE is the one who needs help.

Reading skills aside..you are not the first to read the book. In the book are laid out the ways of God (plural) AND the way of God in Christ. It's not surprising that you are skimming and not understanding the distinction.

The only self-righteous act is to think one is righteous. Are you righteous because of your works or beliefs? You have been indoctrinated to do so. Will you answer? No...you will hide. But why be ashamed at what you believe. Be bold and be corrected.

I say the very opposite of what you claim. I say a righteous person doesn't know he/she is righteous.

Why do you continue your dissimulations? I think you know you are not telling the truth..and most will be too lazy (or busy) to look for themselves. Way to muddy the water...is that some kind of ministry?

I hope people can see your motivation by now.

 

[Episkopos]

The Church of God is all of mankind

1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

You swallowing camels...but your fellow posters will not call you out on it. They call covering up errors....love.

 

[Adam]

That means that ALL who walk in the resurrection life of Jesus are justified by the blood (life) of Christ

Here is a challenge: how does Jesus' ressurection justify our lives? How does it prove that Jesus forgave us our sins? Does Jesus wave His hands and say the magic words? Just a magic trick? Or is there something deeper going on? After all, God is just, isn't He? So handwaving away sins just doesn't cut it, someone has to be punished. So every sin, put on Jesus, and Jesus ascended from Hell to Heaven. So there is no sin which cannot be forgiven.

Jesus says Himself,

Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

You swallowing camels...but your fellow posters will not call you out on it. They call covering up errors....love.

Nobody's covering anyone's errors. People suffer for their sins in this manner:

Exodus 21
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Genesis 9
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Or in other words, every nasty thing you do to someone else, your punishment is to live it out inflicted onto you. You'll be required to live out their life.

 

[Mr E]

Why do you continue your dissimulations? I think you know you are not telling the truth..and most will be too lazy (or busy) to look for themselves. Way to muddy the water...is that some kind of ministry?

I hope people can see your motivation by now.

What's my motivation John, judger of hearts?

I know... I called your baby ugly, and that hurts (your ego). But realize your hope, and tell people what my motivation is, for shining a light on error.

 

[Keturah]

 

[Episkopos]

Here is a challenge: how does Jesus' ressurection justify our lives? How does it prove that Jesus forgave us our sins? Does Jesus wave His hands and say the magic words? Just a magic trick? Or is there something deeper going on? After all, God is just, isn't He? So handwaving away sins just doesn't cut it, someone has to be punished. So every sin, put on Jesus, and Jesus ascended from Hell to Heaven. So there is no sin which cannot be forgiven.

Jesus says Himself,

Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Nobody's covering anyone's errors. People suffer for their sins in this manner:

Exodus 21
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Genesis 9
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Or in other words, every nasty thing you do to someone else, your punishment is to live it out inflicted onto you. You'll be required to live out their life.

OK Let me set this out...


What is the relationship between righteousness (justification), and salvation by faith (faithfulness).

1. These belong on one level or the other. They must be understood on their level. The level of salvation corresponds to the level of faith and righteousness.

2. A righteous person never considers himself/herself as righteous. Only God justifies.

3. What is the justification by faith? When God justifies a person in the NT era...He translates that person into the higher walk...by the justification of life. Such a person walks in salvation from sin by walking in resurrection life. Does that person then claim to be justified? No. It is a privilege and a gift of God by grace to walk as Jesus walked. No one can boast of this. With the higher walk comes the more demanding expectation to do what is right.

4. What of those who walk in their own strength? Can these be justified? Yes. But here we are talking about a salvation as an inheritance AFTER one dies. Does such a person claim to be righteous? No. One must run the race faithfully till the end to inherit life. So then this justification is one of faithfulness.

5. A saint walks by faith AND is faithful...called chosen and faithful. The righteous inherit life (the meek inherit the earth).

6. What about heaven? Heaven is only available to us while we yet live.... NOT after death. The meek inherit the earth not heaven. The heavenly walk is for now, according to the high calling IN Christ.

7. Will few enter into the narrow walk...the heavenly walk? Yes, and fewer and fewer throughout history because of a lack of faith in what God can do.

8. What is "imputed righteousness". It is NOT the righteousness of God. It is God determining that someone is righteous because of faithfulness and doing what is right. Righteous is as righteous does. We will ALL (every person) be judged against the standard of a human righteousness...what was in OUR POWER to do. Did we repent? Did we love others as ourselves? Did we help others?

The righteousness of God, on the other hand, is what translates us to walk without sin...to walk in Zion..to walk in the light as He is in the light. That anointing COVERING of grace (being UNDER grace) frees the inner man to be joined in union to Christ. The outer man is crucified and rendered powerless through the power of the cross on the holiness level.

9. When we are regenerated by the Spirit (new birth) we are given a fresh start. We are forgiven the sins that are past. Having begun in the Spirit we must now go to the throne room of God (throne of grace) to get the full measure of grace. Those who neglect to do this are like the 9 lepers who went their own way.

 

[Adam]

OK Let me set this out...


What is the relationship between righteousness (justification), and salvation by faith (faithfulness).

1. These belong on one level or the other. They must be understood on their level. The level of salvation corresponds to the level of faith and righteousness.

Yes, you get out what you put in.

2. A righteous person never considers himself/herself as righteous. Only God justifies.

Yes, and here is a deeper question: what is the test one must pass in order to be justified by God? What is God's standard? What is God trying to turn you into? You're a child of God right? What does a child grow up into?

3. What is the justification by faith? When God justifies a person in the NT era...He translates that person into the higher walk...by the justification of life. Such a person walks in salvation from sin by walking in resurrection life. Does that person then claim to be justified? No. It is a privilege and a gift of God by grace to walk as Jesus walked. No one can boast of this. With the higher walk comes the more demanding expectation to do what is right.

Faith in God has a purpose, which is to save you from condemnation.

4. What of those who walk in their own strength? Can these be justified? Yes. But here we are talking about a salvation as an inheritance AFTER one dies. Does such a person claim to be righteous? No. One must run the race faithfully till the end to inherit life. So then this justification is one of faithfulness.

It's really about who you are. Sin is error. The wages of sin are death. Your sins are scarlet but will be made white. So how do sins get made white? You have to change who you are as a person. The more you change, the better the results will be. Can you do this in 1 lifetime, become like Jesus? Go show yourself a miracle if you think that you can. You will have to live a very long time to have that level of self-mastery.

5. A saint walks by faith AND is faithful...called chosen and faithful. The righteous inherit life (the meek inherit the earth).

Okay, and what does it mean to inherit life? The first question is, what does it mean to receive death? Why do people end up dead? Why does sin end in death? Why does God care if you browse the naughty pages?

Imagine being God for a second. You are omniscient, omnipresent. So do you have physical eyes? Do you have physical hands? Can you see anything outside of you? No, you have no sensory organs that can sense anything outside of you, you can only look inwards. Your only existence is your mind. You look inside yourself for all eternity. You create your own realities.

Now what if you suddenly found yourself in God's shoes? In a place where you have no senses except thought. This is hell, this is the "outer darkness". What would you think about for eternity? Where are your naughty pages now? There are no physical pleasures because you have no body. Across eternity, your sins will eventually cause you to "die", or in other words, wish you never existed. As long as you have any sins, you cannot endure this place. That is why you must be free of sin.

6. What about heaven? Heaven is only available to us while we yet live.... NOT after death. The meek inherit the earth not heaven. The heavenly walk is for now, according to the high calling IN Christ.

Heaven, Hell and Earth are real places, within the mind of God. The purpose of each, is to engage the logic of God, to think through His thoughts as He meditates.

God is logical. His logic begins with knowing nothing and expands until it knows everything. So everything begins in a primitive and simplistic form and evolves into higher forms, and this includes souls. You are the logic of God.

7. Will few enter into the narrow walk...the heavenly walk? Yes, and fewer and fewer throughout history because of a lack of faith in what God can do.

It is the destiny of Jesus to put all foes beneath His feet. That is the prophesy quoted in my previous post. Everything, even the Devil, will be redeemed. The Devil is also a fragment of God's consciousness. Just another experience. Without the depths of despair the heights of bliss have no meaning, yet God in His full state, is pure bliss, so all things ultimately must be restored to bliss and freedom from sin.

8. What is "imputed righteousness". It is NOT the righteousness of God. It is God determining that someone is righteous because of faithfulness and doing what is right. Righteous is as righteous does. We will ALL (every person) be judged against the standard of a human righteousness...what was in OUR POWER to do. Did we repent? Did we love others as ourselves? Did we help others?

Our sins must be made white as snow. We are measured against a standard of Divine perfection because that is the ultimate goal of God's meditations, to bring everything to fullness, to start with a mustard seed and end with a great tree that shelters all. God is meditating on Himself. That is the goal, Oneness. In the pursuit of Oneness, God teaches sinners righteousness. If someone thinks they are God, but are sinful, God will let them drive themselves mad in hell to show them their error.

The righteousness of God, on the other hand, is what translates us to walk without sin...to walk in Zion..to walk in the light as He is in the light. That anointing COVERING of grace (being UNDER grace) frees the inner man to be joined in union to Christ. The outer man is crucified and rendered powerless through the power of the cross on the holiness level.

The inner man, is the Divine consciousness which is obscured by our sins and trivial daily lives. Union with Christ is how we achieve perfection. A union of wills, becoming one.

9. When we are regenerated by the Spirit (new birth) we are given a fresh start. We are forgiven the sins that are past. Having begun in the Spirit we must now go to the throne room of God (throne of grace) to get the full measure of grace. Those who neglect to do this are like the 9 lepers who went their own way.

Yes, we must be given a fresh start, a new life. Literally.

 

[Episkopos]

Wow. again, you do not know the people you are attacking.. Have you ever studied what they (we)actually believe?

if your not protestant (not catholic) or catholic. what are you?

I'm in the TSESA (The sect that is everywhere spoken against ....Acts 28:22) ...with all the spiritual Christian disciples not affiliated with the religious system of men. Without (outside) the camp bearing His reproach Heb. 13:13

and again, Your view opf my belief is WRONG

Holiness is not about each induvidual believer, it is about God. God sees his son. not us. our righteousness is as filthy rags..

So then God's Son is saved. But He can't see you? Was I wrong to say that in your adopted religious view, grace makes God blind?