Instruction in righteousness

[Mr E]

Yes, it is easy to get carried away, and some topics more than others. And that's part of the beauty of a forum like this, you can proceed at your own pace. If you need a little time to sit back and collect yourself, you can. It's not like an in person conversation, where if you say something you shouldn't too bad, it's already said. Here, Delete is available anywhere you need it before you click Submit.

And I fully agree with you, always leave the door open to continue. We should never become unloving because of how - we perceive - others.

Much love!

@Adam is a wise guy. Not just a wise-guy. ;)

 

[mailmandan]

I've been on Christian forums for, I think, 23 or 24 years...

Wow! That is quite a long time. I joined my first Christian forum (Bible Forums) back around 2010-2011.

 

[Nancy]

Good! Let it have been just a brrrrr in your saddle.

I meant no offense.

I know you didn't, thanks.

 

[Adam]

Boxing analogies aside, do you think God sees us as righteous as He is because we believe Him?

If you believe in Chopin, does that make you a master pianist? You have to practice every day to play like Chopin. Believing in God is the first step, but it doesn't make you perfect, it just sets your course right.

 

[Episkopos]

If you believe in Chopin, does that make you a master pianist? You have to practice every day to play like Chopin. Believing in God is the first step, but it doesn't make you perfect, it just sets your course right.

But who would impute the mastery of Chopin to a beginner who can only play "chopsticks"?

The point is not that we learn...the problem is that people impute righteousness to themselves. Everybody is claiming to be as good as Chopin but hardly anyone can play. Although, there is a lot of imagination going on.

 

[Adam]

But who would impute the mastery of Chopin to a beginner who can only play "chopsticks"?

The point is not that we learn...the problem is that people impute righteousness to themselves. Everybody is claiming to be as good as Chopin but hardly anyone can play. Although, there is a lot of imagination going on.

The truth is, nobody is as good as Chopin, but there is a willingness to learn in some. The important thing is the willingness to learn. You don't stop learning to play piano after you go to sleep, you wake up, and keep practicing the next day. Nobody can learn Chopin in a single day.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

 

[Episkopos]

The truth is, nobody is as good as Chopin, but there is a willingness to learn in some. The important thing is the willingness to learn. You don't stop learning to play piano after you go to sleep, you wake up, and keep practicing the next day. Nobody can learn Chopin in a single day.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

The epidemic we have in the church is that people pretend to play...they are smug because they think any advancement is based on "works". They are against practicing and being open...because they have been told they are as good as they ever will be.

For a few, this will work out...as they will ignore the trend and be diligent. But they are doing this in SPITE of the bad doctrine.

 

[Adam]

The epidemic we have in the church is that people pretend to play...they are smug because they think any advancement is based on "works". They are against practicing and being open...because they have been told they are as good as they ever will be.

For a few, this will work out...as they will ignore the trend and be diligent. But they are doing this in SPITE of the bad doctrine.

I've seen this idea floated around, but I've always seen it being shot down by scripture pretty zealously. The idea that good works are unnecessary negates all that Jesus said. People just want easy answers.

Being saved by faith means, you accept the word of Jesus, and put it into action. Not being saved by works means, not being proud of yourself for your good deeds, like how the Pharisee prayed and thanked God for making him better than other men.

What saves you is who you become. Are you a person who gives to the poor? Or are you a person who knows he should give to the poor but doesn't because he says "Lord, Lord" and that's enough? Or are you someone who ignores the poor as the godless do? Who you become in the end is how you are judged.

Luke 12

42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Listen.

To all, but particularly to @Episkopos and his pit crew @stunnedbygrace and @Nancy I'm going to bow out of this thread and leave you to pat one another's heads as you please. It just becomes noise at some point, the clanging of cymbals which some might enjoy, but I don't.

I'm always up for a good discussion, but not ready to join what amounts to a mutual admiration society.

Be willing to challenge your thinking, and his. Advice ignored by the People's Temple.

Cheers! (but not that kind of Cheers)

ps..... don't drink from the cup.

I think that you think we give too much honor to Epi. Epi is just like us. God took Epi to see something, he plucked Epi somewhere, and then He sent Epi back to tell us some things. Did Epi do something for God to choose him to show something to? No, probably not. God chose him though. So…does anyone really want to dishonor the man? Does he deserve to be harassed?? Does Epi not need encouragement and building up too, since he is just like us? Why on earth would you try hard to DIShonor him…?

 

[Wynona]

I read through this thread. Hopefully it can be peaceful from here out. I'm still trying to understand Episkopos' position.

We are unclean, unholy in our NATURAL state. Only God is holy. Compared to God's righteousness, ours is filthy. Compared to God's strength, we are weak. Our righteousness is insufficient...without God's covering righteousness. But God doesn't cover up our sin. No, we must be crucified first ...the outer sinful nature cut away...THEN we can be covered so that our righteousness is covered with His. His life covers our life...but is that an intact carnal life that is to be covered? No, we are to give up our life to become His disciple. It is no longer I (EGO), ...but Christ...and yet we live...so that the inner man is covered by His life.

So let me get this right. You're saying God doesn't cover up our sin. We crucify the flesh and cut away the sinful nature. Then God's righteousness covers us.

I suppose I think of it in a similar way but slightly different but is this what you're saying?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The Blood covers sin as we learn righteousness and that should lead to being weaned from the flesh which should then lead to….?

 

[Wynona]

The Blood covers sin as we learn righteousness and that should lead to being weaned from the flesh which should then lead to….?

Sounds like the maturity and completeness we all should strive for. It kind of reminds me of this verse in 1 John...

1 John 1:7

​

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


By holding onto "faith and a good conscience", does Jesus blood cover us in ways we might in our humanity overlook? I don't mean sinning and you're aware that its sin. I mean sin that you might be unaware of.

Just a question Ive had for a while.

 

[Episkopos]

I read through this thread. Hopefully it can be peaceful from here out. I'm still trying to understand Episkopos' position.

So let me get this right. You're saying God doesn't cover up our sin. We crucify the flesh and cut away the sinful nature. Then God's righteousness covers us.

I suppose I think of it in a similar way but slightly different but is this what you're saying?

Hi Wynona! I don't think we get a chance to exchange ideas too often! :)

The Light from heaven EXPOSES us...otherwise we would never repent. So then a doctrine that has God covering up our sins is not one that is based on the light of God.

God is the one that crucifies our outer man...as we surrender fully to Him. He chooses what He will do with us...whether we are ready or not for the higher walk in the Spirit. He "vets" us when He is pleased with our attitude of contrition.

When we are permitted to enter into Christ in a personal way, then the righteousness of God covers us as an anointing. From there we reflect His righteousness (in holiness) to the world around us.

Peace to you.....and I think the dust has settled on this thread. :) And thank you from stopping in!

<><

 

[Wynona]

The Light from heaven EXPOSES us...otherwise we would never repent. So then a doctrine that has God covering up our sins is not one that is based on the light of God.

Thanks for the warm greeting! We definitely agree on this. Happy to read this.

God is the one that crucifies our outer man...as we surrender fully to Him. He chooses what He will do with us...whether we are ready or not for the higher walk in the Spirit. He "vets" us when He is pleased with our attitude of contrition.

I believe its on us to crucify the flesh. I agree that we must surrender and that God provides a way out of temptation but we have to take that way out.

Collosians 3:5
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Also, aren't all Christians are supposed to be walking in the Spirit? We agreed to die to sin and walk in newness of life with our baptism.

Romans 6:2-4
​

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Maybe Im not understanding what you mean by being ready for a higher walk? Did you mean that some Christians are and some aren't or that some have come to know the Lord through repentance and of course a lot haven't.

 

[Episkopos]

Thanks for the warm greeting! We definitely agree on this. Happy to read this.




I believe its on us to crucify the flesh. I agree that we must surrender and that God provides a way out of temptation but we have to take that way out.

Collosians 3:5
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Also, aren't all Christians are supposed to be walking in the Spirit? We agreed to die to sin and walk in newness of life with our baptism.

Romans 6:2-4​

​

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Maybe Im not understanding what you mean by being ready for a higher walk? Did you mean that some Christians are and some aren't or that some have come to know the Lord through repentance and of course a lot haven't.

In the OT, it was on the people to "circumcise" themselves to the Lord. Even in the OT, however, there was prophesied a time where God Himself would do the crucifying... (Deuteronomy alludes to the future NEW covenant.)

Deut. 30:6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live.

In the NT we CARRY our cross...but no one can crucify themselves. Even Jesus carried His cross...but it was the Romans who placed Him on the cross. Likewise it is God who does what we cannot do...separate us from the sin nature in the outer man. The cross of Christ kills the sin nature so that the inner man is free to be joined to Christ and walk as Jesus walked (by abiding IN Him).

The higher walk is a NT walk by grace into the perfection of the resurrection life of Christ.

 

[Wynona]

In the OT, it was on the people to "circumcise" themselves to the Lord. Even in the OT, however, there was prophesied a time where God Himself would do the crucifying... (Deuteronomy alludes to the future NEW covenant.)

Deut. 30:6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live.

In the NT we CARRY our cross...but no one can crucify themselves. Even Jesus carried His cross...but it was the Romans who placed Him on the cross. Likewise it is God who does what we cannot do...separate us from the sin nature in the outer man. The cross of Christ kills the sin nature so that the inner man is free to be joined to Christ and walk as Jesus walked (by abiding IN Him).

The higher walk is a NT walk by grace into the perfection of the resurrection life of Christ.

Thinking on this. Thanks for explaining.

 

[Nancy]

The Blood covers sin as we learn righteousness and that should lead to being weaned from the flesh which should then lead to….?

"...which should then lead to….?"
The NEW MAN to prepare to be built upon this righteousness we are taught to have...?
Otherwise we are trying to build still, from our flesh (old man)...JM2C :)

 

[amadeus]

Okay, that’s it. Everyone keeps talking about LOTR for years. I’m feeling a bit sick and can’t make my brain work much. Finally going to go see if I can watch it.

Long before the movie existed, while in college in the 1960's I bought and read the books for the first time. I read them several times I guess before there was a movie. Now I have my own copies of both books and movies and periodically I go through them one more time. I am about due again.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Long before the movie existed, while in college in the 1960's I bought and read the books for the first time. I read them several times I guess before there was a movie. Now I have my own copies of both books and movies and periodically I go through them one more time. I am about due again.

Well, I watched the movie. It’s the first movie or tv show I’ve even been able to watch for…I guess a few months. I still have about 10 minutes I haven’t watched. Probably never will. I can’t focus on them and have to keep rewinding to try and figure out what’s going on, and then I just give up and let them play in the background. I thought I was really liking the movie but…movies just dont hold my interest lately. Odd…

 

[Keturah]

From the sinner " O wretched man that I am, God have mercy on me" and " while I'm at it Lord, I thank thee that I am NOT like the publican who thinks he walks higher than us poor wretched sinners" !


Something stinks in Montreal.